skewbald_again
Well-Known Member
Indeed, it was positively deserted.
inconsiderate whip use at badminton
- Thread starter equinim
- Start date
Jennyharvey
Well-Known Member
There's no point, really - you're not engaging in the discussion, you're just floating around in your own little world.
The nature of genius, the horse's attitude to what we call work, the use of extraneous bits of kit on competition horses/hacks ... take your pick.
Or just drift in and start making totally random comments about the thread title after about a gazillion posts. What ever.
This is exactly what I mean. Just because we dont agree with you, doesnt mean that we are 'floating around in our own little world'.
We have differing opinions, thats all. It doesnt mean we are clueless. Its crazy that everyone here who uses bits, spurs, and other gadgets are somehow right, and someone who prefers not to use these things, or disagree's with these things, is totally clueless or in a world of their own.
Jennyharvey
Well-Known Member
Lol, when i see a horse go round badminton without a rider, then i will believe he enjoys it. At the end of the day, we are MAKING the horse do it, regardless if a horse ENJOYS it. Thats the diference between a human competing, who is willing, and its their decision to do it, compared to a horse, who is ultimately, our slave, doing our bidding, whether it be pulling a plough or competing.
amandap
Well-Known Member
Just before I go I have to say that skewbald_again is actually quoting something I said about myself.
skewbald_again
Well-Known Member
See, Jennyharvey, you keep on doing this to me.
I didn't say YOU were floating around. YOU entered into the discussion, I took your post apart and discussed every last bit of it. YOU had something to say. I didn't agree with most of it, but it warranted discussion.
I am not 'everyone on here' and you are not 'we that disagree' we are each individuals, and we have varying opinions, there are not just two.
Hullabaloo
Well-Known Member
If a horse does lack the 'ability to reason' then all the more reason to try and find a way to teach that he understands rather than hit him.
In most situations I agree. But when you are in a situation where you or the horse is at risk, you don't have time to reason with them. Mark Todd has trained this horse to 4* level so has obviously used effective methods to teach the horse his job. In the situation he was in at the quarry, a couple of slaps to say come on, pick your feet up, was the safest and most effective way of getting to the other side of the fence safely. I'm sure had the horse not responded, he would have pulled up.
By the way, it is a biological fact that a horse has a small brain so I'm not sure why you put it in inverted commas.
Hullabaloo
Well-Known Member
Try MAKING a horse do anything - we ASK them to do these things for us. Horses who enjoy their work respond with enthusiasm. Horses who don't aren't likely to be seen at this level.
I find your idea of a horse being a slave a very odd one, and quite disrespectful to the ancesters of people who were slaves. I assume from this that you don't ride?
eahotson
Well-Known Member
No Skewbald Badminton is not YET diserted.
muffinino
Well-Known Member
I don't think anybody has said that they are deferential towards Mark Todd as such. I said that I would trust him over almost anyone to make the correct decision regarding the correct riding of a horse and IMO, he did that at The Quarry. If he did something I did not like, I would say so.
With regards to making the horse our slave,do you really think so? Have you ever sat on a good jumping horse or driven a scurry vehicle? I can assure you that the majority of these animals love their job and you'd be hard pressed to stop them doing it once they've locked on! There were a few horses at Badminton that point blank refused to continue, which in my mind shows that in general you cannot force them to do it if they don't want to. There may be exceptions but I think in general this is true.
Nobody has yet to tell me how to drive safely without the use of a whip...
With regards to making the horse our slave,do you really think so? Have you ever sat on a good jumping horse or driven a scurry vehicle? I can assure you that the majority of these animals love their job and you'd be hard pressed to stop them doing it once they've locked on! There were a few horses at Badminton that point blank refused to continue, which in my mind shows that in general you cannot force them to do it if they don't want to. There may be exceptions but I think in general this is true.
Nobody has yet to tell me how to drive safely without the use of a whip...
georgiegirl
Well-Known Member
racing, eventing, showjumping etc etc in fact ANY horse sport you will not make 600kg of animal do something it doesnt 100% want to do, whip or no whip.
Horses are big dangerous animals and sometimes a well timed appropriate smack is all that is needed to ensure safety for both horse and rider.
and as for saying you would never respect anyone that smacks you?! well what a load of rubbish. If i was naughty as a child and it was warranted, I did get a smack - and you know the amazing thing? it worked! and i hold the upmost respect for my mother....
Horses are like children they learn on the basis of reward and punishment. even from the most simplest of aids - you press your legs on the horses side, they go forwards, the pressing stops. simples!
How anyone can even start to questions the decisions made by mark todd is beyond me.
Horses are big dangerous animals and sometimes a well timed appropriate smack is all that is needed to ensure safety for both horse and rider.
and as for saying you would never respect anyone that smacks you?! well what a load of rubbish. If i was naughty as a child and it was warranted, I did get a smack - and you know the amazing thing? it worked! and i hold the upmost respect for my mother....
Horses are like children they learn on the basis of reward and punishment. even from the most simplest of aids - you press your legs on the horses side, they go forwards, the pressing stops. simples!
How anyone can even start to questions the decisions made by mark todd is beyond me.
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Ranyhyn
Well-Known Member
Surely the most natural way to communicate with a horse is punishment and praise.
When I watch horses in a herd, they will nip and kick at their field fellows who step out of line and be affectionate ad gentle to those whom they like.
Normally this punishment would be conveyed by tone of voice but at that level of comp with all that accompanying noise, something a little more abrupt is needed, which works in the form of a nice flat whacker, which isn't a skinny sharp switch but a fat flat slappy thing which creates a great noise and just makes the horse realise it has done something wrong. If it is applied at the right time, it'll make the horse realise exactly what its done wrong.
I believe the water-horse deserved a whack, he didn't get to that level by being genuinely afraid of water - he's obviously done it a zillion times and the rider knew this.
Her timing was off, but hey ho, no-one is perfect. I'm sure if she watches it back she'll rectify that decision for next time.
When I watch horses in a herd, they will nip and kick at their field fellows who step out of line and be affectionate ad gentle to those whom they like.
Normally this punishment would be conveyed by tone of voice but at that level of comp with all that accompanying noise, something a little more abrupt is needed, which works in the form of a nice flat whacker, which isn't a skinny sharp switch but a fat flat slappy thing which creates a great noise and just makes the horse realise it has done something wrong. If it is applied at the right time, it'll make the horse realise exactly what its done wrong.
I believe the water-horse deserved a whack, he didn't get to that level by being genuinely afraid of water - he's obviously done it a zillion times and the rider knew this.
Her timing was off, but hey ho, no-one is perfect. I'm sure if she watches it back she'll rectify that decision for next time.
skewbald_again
Well-Known Member
Nobody has yet to tell me how to drive safely without the use of a whip...
http://www.childrenstoysandgifts.co.uk/images/images250/horse-princess.jpg
Can't resist a challenge, me.
Allover
Well-Known Member
In fact people use methods all the time where they can and do make horses do things that they dont want to do. Whether it be through nicely nicely or beating the crap out of it.
Nicely nicely approach and understanding will ultimately lead to a horse wanting to do whatever is asked and reaches its potential.
Beating the crap out of it will lead it to do it through fear and the horse will NEVER perform to its potential because of it.
I am in no way suggesting that Mark Todd beat the horse and as someone has said before i would trust his judgement over most others in the horse world when it comes to giving the horse "one up" to remind it to keep focused on the job
georgiegirl
Well-Known Member
you misunderstand me...... I am of the same opinion as you! nicely nicely doesnt always work and neither do whips - and no, nicely nicely doesnt always lead to sucess in the end, same with as you say 'beating the crap' out of a horse - although there is a world of difference in a 'go forward' instruction given from a whip to 'beating the crap' out of a horse - that is never acceptable but its a completely different thing from riders who will at times use a stick to good effect - i just think it stinks that people like these are getting tarred with the same label.
muffinino
Well-Known Member
OMG I want! Do you think they make them big enough for adults? I'm only 5'1'' so I'm sure I could fit in one
tristar
Well-Known Member
small brains, limited ability to think, lacks ability to reason, lives for the moment?, this is not my evaluation or experience of horses, indeed i find horses highly intelligent, quick to learn, super quick to respond, willing to please, delighting and taking pride in their work, and most definately they have reasoning power. My horse is thick, it does'nt want to work, it won't go forward, it stops blah blah blah.... sick of hearing it, blame the horse, when in reality they need to take a good hard look at themselves first, of course that will only be productive if you don't have a small brain, limited ability to think, are lacking ability to res......
if you have to hit the horse to make it do it right, or to make it happen at all there is an issue, this is what we are debating, if you have to whack it half way through a complex because you and the horse might break your necks, should the horse be doing it at all?, these riders make the choice to place themselves and their horses in this position, it puts them in another place from people who train and ride with kindness and would never risk their horses necks, they see the horse from a completely different perspective.
if you have to hit the horse to make it do it right, or to make it happen at all there is an issue, this is what we are debating, if you have to whack it half way through a complex because you and the horse might break your necks, should the horse be doing it at all?, these riders make the choice to place themselves and their horses in this position, it puts them in another place from people who train and ride with kindness and would never risk their horses necks, they see the horse from a completely different perspective.
Ranyhyn
Well-Known Member
Every owner risks their horses necks just by owning one and letting it out in a field.
Allover
Well-Known Member
Or riding it down the road, or giving it medication, or putting it in a stable, or putting it in a field, or taking it to a show.
The list goes on and on, and what is classed as "riding with kindness" because i am sure what one person will class as kind another will class as something completely different.
The list goes on and on, and what is classed as "riding with kindness" because i am sure what one person will class as kind another will class as something completely different.
charlie76
Well-Known Member
For the uneducated amongst us the phrase is 'backing up the leg with the whip' and not 'whipping the horse'!
If there is anyone here that can make a horse go perfectly without ever the use of an artifical aid then please feel free to have a chat to my horses!
If there is anyone here that can make a horse go perfectly without ever the use of an artifical aid then please feel free to have a chat to my horses!
Over2You
Well-Known Member
Nobody has yet to tell me how to drive safely without the use of a whip...
I found not one, not two, but four examples of horses and ponies being driven safely without a whip! Check this out. Pay attention to the Fjord at about 01.50. NO WHIP!!
Then again with the grey Welshie at around 02.40. Also at 4.12 with the two black Percherons. Take a look at this too. Perhaps you could contact the latter for some tips. She was trained to use vocal commands instead of a whip. It should also be noted that I found those videos on the first search results page. There are probably lots more to be found.muffinino
Well-Known Member
I found not one, not two, but four examples of horses and ponies being driven safely without a whip! Check this out. Pay attention to the Fjord at about 01.50. NO WHIP!!
I can't watch the vidoes from this computer, I'm afraid
But I still don't think that they can be driving safely if they don't have a whip. I cannot believe anybody would be so stupid as to drive without at least the back up of a one, it is very dangerous to do so. I was taught by one of the UK's top drivers, a man who has won titles at pretty much every county show, Hickstead and HOYS, and who also judges at the highest level, and he would flay me alive for driving without a whip or gloves. You are a fool to drive without either. You also need one anyway to lightly touch the horse with, to instruct it, as it is an extention of your arm and takes the place of your leg. It is not always used for beatings!
My ponies were very responsive to voice commands and most drives would not need one to back up those commands, but sometimes you would still need a whip if their instincts took over. Unless of course you've trained the animal to have no instinct whatsoever
Sometimes, for their own safety, you need a whip whilst driving to back up the voice command as nothing will over-ride instinct eg. fear or sheer stubborness. I would never and shall never think that it is safe to drive without a whip.Over2You
Well-Known Member
So, what exactly was he then for relentlessly whipping the horse over the finishing line? A saint or a caring sympathetic rider? He was neither which is why he incurred a well deserved ban. I am sorry, but he WAS a thug for what he did to that horse. Ballabriggs might not have been visibly marked, but he could easily have had broken blood vessels and tissue damage underneath his skin. It would not be surprising if he had considering the beating he got.
It should also be noted that Maguire had been handed two suspensions in February of this year. One for marking a horse and the other for excessive use of the whip. However, given the fact that racing so often makes a mockery of its rules, the bans were overturned. He also appealed against a ten-day ban this month for going the wrong way. He was successful. Out of interest, why is it that a jockey will be handed a ten-day ban for going the wrong way, but will only get five for marking a horse?teagreen
Well-Known Member
So, what exactly was he then for relentlessly whipping the horse over the finishing line? A saint or a caring sympathetic rider? He was neither which is why he incurred a well deserved ban. I am sorry, but he WAS a thug for what he did to that horse. Ballabriggs might not have been visibly marked, but he could easily have had broken blood vessels and tissue damage underneath his skin. It would not be surprising if he had considering the beating he got.
But he DIDN'T have broken blood vessels or tissue damage. I've been racing quite a bit recently and have been particularly observant of how the horses are finishing (each time think of you, O2Y!). I have not been able to see where the horses have been hit at any of the meetings I have been at. They do not appear hurt or distressed in any way. The other day I had friends at a point to point, and I went to see them afterwards. I ran my hands over the horses quarters and felt nothing at all, nor did the horse mind, he was merrily picking grass at the end of a leadrope.
Jockeys may have their whips, but event riders have their legs (complete with spurs) and whips. So I'm surprised you like eventing at all, Over2You, because while jockeys can't kick their horses in the sides to make them go faster, eventers can. They can also use bits that aren't snaffles.
And Jason got his 10 day ban because we went the wrong way to avoid a stricken jockey. What a monster.
Jennyharvey
Well-Known Member
I normally dont think of it as punishment, how we train horses. Its more to do with pressure and release. Or negative reinforcement. We apply pressure to a horse, ie negative reinforcement, (which isnt the same as punishment) and then we reward the horse by removing the pressure. Its how we ask with our legs or reins. To me punishment is to punish a horse for doing something wrong. Like if a horse nips, a smack on the nose would be a punishment.
I rarely punish a horse. I like to ignore a mistake and praise when the horse gets it right, but in the situation where a horse could hurt me, or in self defence, i dont have a problem using punishment. I just do see it as a tool in training. Only for reprimands.
Jennyharvey
Well-Known Member
I think that yes, the horse does have a small brain compared to us. But i think too many people take for granted just how intelligent they really are.
They may learn differently, but the fact that we can teach a horse to do the things we do with them, surely this is evidence of the horse's intelligence, small brain regardless.
They may learn differently, but the fact that we can teach a horse to do the things we do with them, surely this is evidence of the horse's intelligence, small brain regardless.
blueneonrainbow
Well-Known Member
I honestly cannot see the problem with using a whip at the correct time and place to perk up the horse and make it listen to you - perhaps because the only horses I have available to me are riding school horses, who are not dead to the leg but are also worked hard so are perhaps not as fresh as my own horse would be who is worked maybe once a day. A quick tap behind the leg to back up my leg aids is a godsend at times and gets the horse working correctly - and is especially useful just before a jump if the horse backs off. I didnt see Mark Todds round but did see some others who appeared to use their whips for punishment rather than encouragement but I didnt see anything that seemed cruel - some I thought should have pulled up rather than continuing such as Ingrid Klimke, whose horse slid badly on two occasions and she then fell, as did every other rider who I thought should have pulled up. I guess the chance of finishing keeps them going on when its apparent the horse is having some sort of difficulty. I was also mightily unimpressed with Karen O Connor I think it was.
I did think this was an incredibly honest horse:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_YSNQ5Utfc
I did think this was an incredibly honest horse:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_YSNQ5Utfc
Allover
Well-Known Member
Horses may have a small brain but us humans only use about 10% of ours, therefore if a horse uses 90% of its small brain it is in all likelihood considerably brighter than us!!
Hullabaloo
Well-Known Member
Who is blaming the horse - all I'm saying is that they think and behave differently from humans so dealing with a horse is not the same as dealing with a child. It is silly to equate the two. I'm not suggesting that horses can't learn, but they do not form long term plans, looking into the future in the way people do. Their behaviour is much more driven by instinct. In my experience it is when people treat horses as if they are human that behavioural problems arise.
Going cross country at the top level inevitably puts a horse at risk no matter how they are trained and ridden so in that case we shouldn't let horses go cross country at all. Maybe we shouldn't even ride them as that also presents a risk.
I was at Badminton on Sunday - I saw Mark's horse pass the trot up and come out and jump the course like it was pony club. I also saw his delight with the horse when they won. In my view he did absolutely the right thing in the quarry. In fact I'd trust Mark Todd to look after my horse's neck any day of the week.
Mistatiger
Well-Known Member
I don't usually post on these sort of topics and have to admit that I have read most but not all of the posts. I have had the privilege of riding around Badminton 5 times on a very super horse which, I can assure you, had a ball. He went around in snaffle, no martingale and I don't think was ever hit in his life (he was home bred). These horses are big and powerful and the good ones sometimes do have minds of their own, there is no way we can MAKE them jump these fences. I was one of the lucky ones who didn't need the aid of a whip but believe me if I felt my horse had needed a little encouragement, and I had needed a couple of urges with a whip, I would have been very sad to have read some of the comments in this post. Also on the subject of bits, is it not better to put something a little stronger in their mouths as opposed to swinging and sawing off their teeth in a snaffle? Remember some of these horses won't have been originally broken by the riders who are on them at Badminton so may not have had the chance to create a soft mouth. We all have different riding technique's and are entitled to agree but what a shame we are over looking such a fabulous Badminton with truly fantastic horses an riders working as a team. On the subject of Mark and Land Vision, I have been fortunate enough to have ridden him and he certainly is 'off the leg', happy in his work and thought the world of by Mark and his team. Having said all that I respect all of you who disagree with all of the above and in no way am I saying that I am right in my opinions so please don't shoot me down.
Ranyhyn
Well-Known Member
What a beautifully reasonable post Mistatiger!