inconsiderate whip use at badminton

[Over2You]

Is dead horses the measure as to how 'good' 'kind' 'safe' a sport is or isn't then?

I'm lost for words for once. Probably for the best.

I am not saying I am totally for eventing. There are a lot of things I do not like about it either. However, it is definitely more horse friendly than racing. They go around one-at-a-time, obstacles are jumped from slower speeds, and more and more fences are being built with frangible pins. Plus, the steeple chasing and roads and tracks phase has been removed too. I also brought up the number of deaths to make a point. That despite fewer horses participating in both Nationals, there were four deaths compared to Badminton's none. I use death rates to show how dangerous sports are - not the other way round.

 

[LCH611]

I didn't mean to. I was commenting on what has been written about whip use in general and the tiredness of the horses etc. I should have made that clearer, I'm sorry. I didn't see any of it. .

Well if you had actually watched it you would have seen that the horse wasn't thrashed as some people seem to be implying, it was given a sharp reminder to pick up over one fence and thereafter finished with its ears pricked. Toddy has evidently pulled up horses in thw past when he didn't think they should continue and I don't think many would doubt the incredible feel he has for a horse. If he felt that it was safe & not compromising the horse's welfare to continue I think it was fair enough - plenty of athletes (equine & otherwise) are tired at the end of a competition but that doesn't mean that it is wrong to try and achieve an optimum performance? I frequently ask my horses to do more than they might want to if left to their own devices (and have been known to use a whip vigorously if my horse thinks it maight like to nap into the path of an on-coming car for example), and the pay-off is that they get jolly well looked after.

The ground jury will decide if the tired horses are fit to jump tomorrow.

 

[welshwizzard]

I'm sorry. I didn't see any of it. I stopped watching eventing after I saw the horse that spiked himself with the shaft of the fence number and bled to death.

Sorry, but how can you comment if you didn't see it?

from H&H news:
Falls and injury update

There were a number of holds due to falls during the day.

Ireland's Elizabeth Power fell when Kilpatrick River left a leg at the Irish Sport Horse Studbook Huntsmans Close. She regained consciousness and was airlifted to Frenchay Hospital for a detailed examination.

Fellow Irish rider Camilla Speirs (Portersize Just A Jiff) had a fall at the L200 Pick Ups and was ambulanced off course. She was taken to an on site medical centre and subsequently to Frenchay for further examination.

Ingrid Klimke (FRH Butts Abraxxas) fell earlier in the day, at the gate into Huntsmans Close, and sustained an injury to her leg. She was taken to Frenchay for a precautionary X-ray to her knee.

The latest information is that no horses were seriously injured.

BTW wooden posts aren't used any more.
and Mark Todd is now in the lead

 

[kickonchaps]

I didn't see Mark Todd's round so can't comment on that. I did however watch Emily Baldwin's two rounds and felt uncomfortable with the amount of whip she used plus a lot of mouth hauling. I am by no means anti whip, but I felt (maybe wrongly) that her use of whip was due to anger and frustration, which in my book, is completely unacceptable. Fantastic coverage though on the red button, and really enjoyed the commentary from Mike Tucker and Ian Stark and all their visiting commentating competitors. Good job BBC!

Totally agree.

My own opinion is if a rider is balanced and kind to the horse for the whole round, and gives it a good run, and a slap in front of a fence when it's backing off, I think thats completely justified use of the whip. I'm sure horses would far rather have Mark Todd ride them and give them a slap to say 'come on buddy, pick up!!' than someone out of balance and hauling on their mouth for 12 minutes. There are far worse ways to treat a horse than to give it a slap and send it forward. Equally it's far better to smack a tired horse to make it wake up and get over a fence than to leave it alone and have it very honestly have a crack anyway, not pick up and have a rotational fall.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

I agree that there were far too many instances of horses being abused with the whip at Badminton. However, to say jockeys get reprimanded in racing for abusing the whip is untrue. The bans are ludicrous. Five days or a week at most. As is the fact that many a time, the offending jockey is allowed to keep his/her winnings (like Grand National winner Jason Maguire). Not much of a deterrent in other words. In fact racing makes a mockery of its rules by letting jockeys off scot-free for breaking them.

Over2You you really have NO clue as to how racing works do you? You can incure a 10day whip ban in racing. If you are given 24 or more days whip ban a season you are banned for anopther month I think and sent on a course all about how to use your stick correctly.

Whip bans not much of a deterrent? Jockey's that get known for incuring bans frequently don't get used as often as OWNERS don't like it. Therefore said jockey gets less rides. Also do you know how much a jockey earns at a day at the races? They get paid about £100 a ride once the horse is under starters orders, whether they win or fail to complete is irrelevent. A good jockey could get 5-6 rides a day so in 1 days ban off of the track he is losing £500-£600. If you tot this up to the length of the ban then these guys are losing a LOT of money. Racing is their only income, they don't get paid hourly rates, or work in shifts. They get paid for the job they do and a jockey that is never on the track due to bans is a very poor jockey indeed. So if £500 a day isn't incentive enough to try their hardest to win whilst not breaking the rules then they really do have a screw loose.

I've not watched Badminton, eventing really isn't my thing but I am glad that this has come to light. Eventing has a very selective set of viewers - horsey people. Racing is open to the whole wide world and every nook and cranny is exposed for scrutiny. What horsey people may accept as normal in eventing Mr Joe Bloggs would be up in arms about - but never will be as it isn't so much in the public eye. If eventing opened up it's doors and made normal people want to watch it then I believe that their rules will soon become as strict as racings.

 

[Jennyharvey]

Sounds like abuse of horses not misuse of anything inanimate to me.
Do these whips have to be 'pain free' like the ones in racing?

Pushing horses to win a bloomin competition is something I don't think is acceptable. Humans can push themselves as much as they want but a horse cannot be described as a consenting partner imo.

I agree. if a horse needs a reminder to jump the fence, then maybe hes getting tired, especially if he made a mistake at the previous. I didnt see the horse compete tho, so cant comment on what actually occured.

I watched about ten minutes of the XC, then turned it off. I hate to see horses whipped, either as a repremand for a stumble, or punishment because the horse is trying his hardest, especially nearing the end of the course when the horse is clearly exhausted. I think in eventing, horses are often pushed to the limit, so i think its unfair for the horse to be whipped in any circumstance. I understand that it may be better to hit a horse than have it fall, but i would like to know just how effective the whip is to actually get a horse over the jump tho. I would like to have a horse move away from my leg better, so i never had to whip it over anything.

Plus, the amount of horses being pulled in the mouth because they are 'strong' annoys me. Surely a horse who is trained in dressage should be able to come off a much lighter aid than being hauled in the mouth? And i dont agree with the adrenaline theory. Just because a horse is high, doesnt mean he cant listen to his rider.

 

[kickonchaps]

I agree. if a horse needs a reminder to jump the fence, then maybe hes getting tired, especially if he made a mistake at the previous. I didnt see the horse compete tho, so cant comment on what actually occured.

I watched about ten minutes of the XC, then turned it off. I hate to see horses whipped, either as a repremand for a stumble, or punishment because the horse is trying his hardest, especially nearing the end of the course when the horse is clearly exhausted. I think in eventing, horses are often pushed to the limit, so i think its unfair for the horse to be whipped in any circumstance. I understand that it may be better to hit a horse than have it fall, but i would like to know just how effective the whip is to actually get a horse over the jump tho. I would like to have a horse move away from my leg better, so i never had to whip it over anything.

Plus, the amount of horses being pulled in the mouth because they are 'strong' annoys me. Surely a horse who is trained in dressage should be able to come off a much lighter aid than being hauled in the mouth? And i dont agree with the adrenaline theory. Just because a horse is high, doesnt mean he cant listen to his rider.

Have you ever actually ridden a fit eventer??

 

[kirstyl]

Have you ever actually ridden a fit eventer??

Well said!!

 

[angelish]

OFFS grow up and get a life

can any of you sit there and say you are not even slightly cruel in anyway to your own horses and never have been ?

what do you all want in life ,will we just call for all riding to be banned as it is cruel ,then we can just feed em up in fields then eat them eh

 

[trick123]

There were some lovely rounds today with bright perky horses, but I'm sorry I do not agree that an extremely tired horse should be smacked to make it jump a fence

 

[welshwizzard]

First it was the Grand National then it was the Scottish National now its Badminton. Really are any of you meally mouthed anti anything that asks the ultimate question from a horse that has been very well prepared and fit, to do a job with a rider who is one of the top event riders in the world, in a position to voice your rediculous opinions? You are a joke, all of you, armchair jockies and armchair riders who most probably wouldnt know how to see a stride into a cross pole!!

Hit the nail on the head there Pastie

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Ah but then you also have the case of - do you ever see jockey's hauling their racehorses heads off, sawing side to side before every jump? Nope!Plus racehorses are ridden mostly in snaffles, some are ridden in Dextors but not as many as you would think. You have to get permission from the vets to run a racehorse in anything other. No such rules exist in eventing that I am aware of but pleasre feel free to correct me on that one. Same with a lot of these young show jumpers these days - it's all about hauling around and smacking rather than sitting quietly and asking. All you have to do is watch John, Michael or Geoff in the ring to see a true master at work - although I do think that Geoff looks like a christmas pudding on a horse

 

[Jennyharvey]

There were some lovely rounds today with bright perky horses, but I'm sorry I do not agree that an extremely tired horse should be smacked to make it jump a fence

Exactly.

 

[Jennyharvey]

Have you ever actually ridden a fit eventer??

Long time ago. But he was well enough schooled to NOT need pulled in the mouth. Its up to us to put brakes on our horses, not just pull on their mouth when the brakes fail.

 

[amage]

I agree that there were far too many instances of horses being abused with the whip at Badminton. However, to say jockeys get reprimanded in racing for abusing the whip is untrue. The bans are ludicrous. Five days or a week at most. As is the fact that many a time, the offending jockey is allowed to keep his/her winnings (like Grand National winner Jason Maguire). Not much of a deterrent in other words. In fact racing makes a mockery of its rules by letting jockeys off scot-free for breaking them.

hardly scot free....serious loss of earnings! and actually there is calls for severe whip abuse to lose a winning jockey a race so that may come in the future!

 

[chestnut cob]

I understand that it may be better to hit a horse than have it fall, but i would like to know just how effective the whip is to actually get a horse over the jump tho. I would like to have a horse move away from my leg better, so i never had to whip it over anything.

Maybe Mark Todd needs some lessons from the HHO forum on how to get his horse moving away from his leg better then... PMSL. Are you really suggesting 4* event horses don't move away from the leg?! If you've got a horse who isn't quite off the leg, what do you do.. yes, you give him a smack to wake him up. You cannot seriously think that when a horse gets to this level, something is missing in the basic training?! It would have fallen apart long ago if that were the case...

I watched all of the "controversial" rounds this afternoon and didn't see anything concerning. It certainly can't be claimed that the horse was "whipped", he just had a reminder.

Plus, the amount of horses being pulled in the mouth because they are 'strong' annoys me. Surely a horse who is trained in dressage should be able to come off a much lighter aid than being hauled in the mouth? And i dont agree with the adrenaline theory. Just because a horse is high, doesnt mean he cant listen to his rider.

In theory it would be lovely if all horses could be ridden in a snaffle at all times but in reality that isn't the case. The horses I saw today simply looked keen and fit!

 

[kit279]

I agree. if a horse needs a reminder to jump the fence, then maybe hes getting tired, especially if he made a mistake at the previous. I didnt see the horse compete tho, so cant comment on what actually occured.

I watched about ten minutes of the XC, then turned it off. I hate to see horses whipped, either as a repremand for a stumble, or punishment because the horse is trying his hardest, especially nearing the end of the course when the horse is clearly exhausted. I think in eventing, horses are often pushed to the limit, so i think its unfair for the horse to be whipped in any circumstance. I understand that it may be better to hit a horse than have it fall, but i would like to know just how effective the whip is to actually get a horse over the jump tho. I would like to have a horse move away from my leg better, so i never had to whip it over anything.

Plus, the amount of horses being pulled in the mouth because they are 'strong' annoys me. Surely a horse who is trained in dressage should be able to come off a much lighter aid than being hauled in the mouth? And i dont agree with the adrenaline theory. Just because a horse is high, doesnt mean he cant listen to his rider.

I didn't see any horses whipped as punishment today TBH and, in the nicest possible way, I pretty much disagree with everything above! I think you'd feel incredibly differently if you had a sit on some of these very fit, very strong eventers! I've seen some very meek and mild dressage horses become completely deaf to their riders out hunting - event horses for the most part love their job and they absolutely run on adrenaline. If you are on adrenaline, you will be a very different person to the one sitting at your computer currently!

A very wise person once told me that riding a horse is a bit like driving a car. If everything goes well, it's possible to drive with the gears and never touch the brake. But in an emergency situation, you have to use the brake.

 

[sonjafoers]

OFFS grow up and get a life

can any of you sit there and say you are not even slightly cruel in anyway to your own horses and never have been ?

Not me! My horse took off with me xc last week, flat out at every fence the bugger! Completely unsafe, I don't carry a whip so yes I hauled her in the mouth and guess what.....she took no notice at all

 

[teapot]

I've seen worse in riding schools that happens on a daily basis.

I don't think I saw any whip abuse today, just timely reminders over what is the toughest course in the world. Which would you rather? No whip use and more horse halls, or the odd slap?

 

[kickonchaps]

Long time ago. But he was well enough schooled to NOT need pulled in the mouth. Its up to us to put brakes on our horses, not just pull on their mouth when the brakes fail.

No one gets in a car intending to have a car accident but it still happens. No one gets on a horse to ride it round Badminton thinking they'll lose control into a fence, but it happens, and just like its not good for a car to slam the brakes on suddenly, it's not good for a horse to yank on its mouth, but both are preferable to an accident.

Can you honestly say you've never experienced the feeling of a well schooled horse, snaffle mouth in every way, suddenly getting a bit overexcited on a stubble field and p***ing off?! I doubt you sat there politely half halting as you continued into the next county

 

[Jesstickle]

I watched every round and saw very little of concern.

Do you honestly think that any of the riders who got there today did so by bullying and beating their horses? Really? All I saw today were horses who clearly love the job they're doing.

And as to how any of us (assuming none of us are riding at 4* level) can say they should be better schooled etc. Well it beggars belief. Clearly they are impeccably schooled. You can see this from their dressage. Horses get excited about going XC and get strong. They get excited because they enjoy it. They are big and fit. I wouldn't be able to hold them in a snaffle so I don't expect anyone else to either.

Do you all tell your doctors you know better than them, your dentists, your accountants? These guys are the professionals. The people at the top of the industry. The fact that they're out doing it at this level means they know better than us. If we were so great we'd be there too. If you all know best why don't you go next year and show us how to do it without a whip, without a martingale and in a snaffle.

I'll look at for you

p.s. I'm not anti racing either. I think the GN is a bit of an exceptional case in an otherwise fairly well regulated industry where injury is mercifully rare. Just MO though. I worked at a flat yard and the only serious injuries we ever had were at home when our horses ran in to fences etc.

 

[sleepingdragon10]

Maybe Mark Todd needs some lessons from the HHO forum on how to get his horse moving away from his leg better then... PMSL. Are you really suggesting 4* event horses don't move away from the leg?! If you've got a horse who isn't quite off the leg, what do you do.. yes, you give him a smack to wake him up. You cannot seriously think that when a horse gets to this level, something is missing in the basic training?! It would have fallen apart long ago if that were the case...

I watched all of the "controversial" rounds this afternoon and didn't see anything concerning. It certainly can't be claimed that the horse was "whipped", he just had a reminder.



In theory it would be lovely if all horses could be ridden in a snaffle at all times but in reality that isn't the case. The horses I saw today simply looked keen and fit!

Absolutely agree! There are a fair few people who need to get back in their prams..........honestly, do you have nothing better to do?

 

[Chloe..x]

Are people really moaning about the types of bit in a horse?!

Seriously, I'll throw you on my eventer in a nice little snaffle and see if you come back alive...
Brakes are needed especially on a course like Badminton as there are lots of galloping straights with quite complex combinations in-between. So one minute you need to spur the horse on to make up the time on the stretches and then you need the horse to come back and listen and respect the fences and in many horse a snaffle just doesn't suffice as a sufficient method.

 

[Chloe..x]

Also, I completely back Toddy up on the use of his whip, toward the end of a cross country horse, your horse is tiring and doesn't give the fences as much respect and height as they do on the first 3/4 so a sharp tap or so with the whip reminds them to keep their mind on the job for safety most importantly, you only have to see Oli Townend at the quarry who's fall could of been alot more serious at a more "upright" fence

 

[Bedlam]

Perhaps you should take this up with Yogi Breisner? I heard him lecturing U18 event riders earlier this year on when to pull up your horse. If your horse is running out of steam he advises 3 stage of action. A few sharp kicks, collecting into the bridle and seeing if they take it followed by 3 sharp smacks behind the leg. If there's no response you should pull up even if you only have 1 fence left to jump - it's not unheard of for horses to fall at the last.

I suspect that if Marks' horse hadn't picked up in response to his whip he would have circled away and retired. He's the one sitting on the horse - only he knows what he can feel. The horse finished well and happily. I'm not sure I get the problem with this particular round.

There were other things that I commented on - Emily at the water appeared to smack with frustration at the water. Only 3 times - fair dos, but I think once a pair have lost confidence in each other to that extent at that level it might be wise to retire. Caroline Ryan Bell looked very cross with Rathmoyle after she fell - I thought a pat and a kind word would have better than grabbing the reins and sulking off.

That German guy - Jeez!

What a difference experience can make - Opposition Buzz was spectacular and full of running, and Mary King is just a start.

A shame that Pippa didn't run. I understand what she said about deciding not to run Mirage D'Elle because she felt she wasn't in the running after dressage and that she herself didn't need the mileage, but I think she misses the point a little. At Badminton we have the world's eyes on us. Many people watch Badminton that never see another event all year, and they expect to see the big names run. There was also a long wait list of people who would have given their back teeth to run. Badminton isn't really like any other event and I think to withdraw on anything other than veterinary/medical grounds after the dressage is a bit of a poor show.

Those are some of my musings......

 

[Tinkerbee]

I've seen worse in riding schools that happens on a daily basis.

I don't think I saw any whip abuse today, just timely reminders over what is the toughest course in the world. Which would you rather? No whip use and more horse halls, or the odd slap?

Exactly what I was going to say!

I've seen far worse carried out by average riders...

I'm not sure if there's something in the water but everyone's common sense seems to have vanished in the past few years

 

[Jennyharvey]

Have you ever ridden round Badminton or even aspired to Novice eventing? In fact all of you who are critical about the riding at Badminton, could you do it? Would you have the knowledge or the balls to even attempt too? If not then shut up. You are all nit picking and loving it. I would love to see some of you on a horse, let alone a fit horse prepared and keen to do its job over a course like that. Perhaps you should put yourselves forward and offer your knowledge to the likes of Mark Todd, I am sure he would welcome some contructive advice from you.

lol why would i want to ride round badminton.

sarah Getchell in this vid with her Dr cooks bridle. Might not be badminton, but not a bad round xc and jumping.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJSninXjfVM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsPMxt2xRZU&feature=related
I guess it depends on where you believe the brakes are on a horse. If you believe the brakes are in the mouth, fair enough. There is more to stopping a horse than pulling on his head. But i guess that because ive never ridden around badminton, that i havnt got a clue about it my opinions are invalid. Fair enough.

 

[Caledonia]

There is more to stopping a horse than pulling on his head. But i guess that because ive never ridden around badminton, that i havnt got a clue about it my opinions are invalid. Fair enough.

Because all horses come off the same production line and have a handy handbook?

Really, wake up..........

 

[muffinino]

I'm just wondering what the difference is between hitting a horse with a whip to jump 'safely' and hitting a horse in the face with a rope clip to keep yourself safe is?

Must say I don't condone either but just another example of the incongruous thinking sometimes in the horseworld.

Are you serious? How on Earth can you compare giving an experienced horse a smack to make it concentrate to beating a horse around the face with a metal clip? If you can't see the difference between the two then maybe you need to have a sit and think about it.

Come on now, a smack to remind a horse to concentrate & buck their ideas up in a very distracting arena is hardly going to have an ill-effect. I cannot specifically comment on the 'Mark Todd is a horse beater' nonsense that is being touted here as I left before his round (needed to get home to see to my beast). However, having seen him pull horses up in the past when he thought they were too tired, and knowing that he has competed at the highest level in two disciplines for more years than I have been alive, I would trust him over pretty much anybody to be able to judge his horse correctly.
What I saw in general were fit, extremely well cared for athletes who were enthusiastic about what they were doing, to the point where some of them needed a bit of reminding who is on control . Some did look tired towards the end, however it was quite humid for parts of today so maybe that has something to do with it. In general I would trust the riders to know their mounts well enough to be able to judge whether or not they would get home. They may have felt different to how they looked, which can sometimes happen, and perhaps the riders knew they would be able to do it. After all, their lives are also at risk if the horse is tired and makes mistakes.

 

[McLurker]

one answer - money
how much was the prize fund?
Money and greed - thats why horse racers or event gorses are abused - end of