inconsiderate whip use at badminton

[Jennyharvey]

You only have to see horses mutual grooming to know that they do not experience pain like we do. What they do to each other for pleasure - would HURT me!! Then add the adrenaline into the equation and those measley smacks are like peeing in the wind really, but they often suffice to wake a horse up and get its mind back on the game. If that results in a safe jump, where otherwise there may have been a fall. I'm all for it.

Sorry, but to say horse's dont experience pain the same way we do is utter rubbish. Yes they use their teeth to scratch friends, and a nip isnt gonna draw blood. They may have a thicker skin, than us, and hair too, but they still feel pain. So what you are saying is that its perfectly ok to hit a horse with a whip, rope, whatever, because they dont feel pain like us?
Sorry but thats just daft.

 

[kickonchaps]

Sorry, but to say horse's dont experience pain the same way we do is utter rubbish. Yes they use their teeth to scratch friends, and a nip isnt gonna draw blood. They may have a thicker skin, than us, and hair too, but they still feel pain. So what you are saying is that its perfectly ok to hit a horse with a whip, rope, whatever, because they dont feel pain like us?
Sorry but thats just daft.

Don't think that was what Kitsune was saying at all...

 

[skewbald_again]

and I have to tell you, there are people who whack each other harder than that for fun, girls. Sorry but there you have it

 

[Jesstickle]

and I have to tell you, there are people who whack each other harder than that for fun, girls. Sorry but there you have it

haha. PMSL

I noticed most people were riding with race style, padded whips.

I can guarantee those don't hurt much. The lads at our yard used to crack me over the ass on a regular basis with them and I'm still here to tell the tale! And I don't mean little taps, I mean they truly walloped me. It stings but it wasn't agony! Boys eh. Sigh

 

[DragonSlayer]

Are you talking about me? You'll have to point me to it if you are.

Apologies...not amanda...amelia....

D'oh!

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Sorry guys! I have a confession to make! I hit my pony with a stick today! He got a flick from the end of my schooling whip that barely tickled his bum as he was being a lazy toad and tried to drop his head in my hands. I'm so sorry, next time I shall forgo the stick, not use my legs and let him amble along whilst I hold his head up for him just to appease you all! Or maybe I should just never ride him again and leave him in the field to get fat and bored?!?

Opinions gratefully received!

 

[stacey_lou]

Hardly He gave it 3 smacks, to make sure it got over the fence safely. After that he didn't touch it with his whip. Yes, horse was tired, but not exhausted, and picked up on the dowhill run. Careful riding got him home, and he jumped off straight away to cool him down. Not very pretty, but did the job. This is a young horse, and probably hasn't done a course at this level before.
Now Frank Osholt on the other hand was VERY lucky to get home, and should have pulled up.
I have repeated what I said before.
I don't condone the use of the whip, but Mark Todd was hardly beating him round the course. If he hadn't given him a smack, they might have come to serious grief at that fence, then we would be complaining that they had fallen!
For what its worth, I am not against racing either entirely, but I think the number of runners in the national causes problems.

I agree with the above, Mark Todd just gave that horse a wake up to say come on get on with it and if that horse was too tired to continue he wouldnt have jumped it.

Emily Baldwin on the other hand I think layed into her horse when he refused at the water fence, she didnt need to batter him when she had taken him away from the fence, a few smacks on the shoulder on the apprach would have been better, again what Mark Todd did, the right place and the right time.

I must also say I was mighty impressed with how well WFP sat when Cool Mountain tripped over the parell Log up the larger step (sorry cant remember the name of the fence) but that horse really helped him out as much as WFP helped him what a parternership they have

 

[kickonchaps]

Sorry guys! I have a confession to make! I hit my pony with a stick today! He got a flick from the end of my schooling whip that barely tickled his bum as he was being a lazy toad and tried to drop his head in my hands. I'm so sorry, next time I shall forgo the stick, not use my legs and let him amble along whilst I hold his head up for him just to appease you all! Or maybe I should just never ride him again and leave him in the field to get fat and bored?!?

Opinions gratefully received!

Well it's simple, you should train him better You shouldn't need to use legs or a whip, he should be well enough trained that he just does it, whatever it is you're doing

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Well it's simple, you should train him better You shouldn't need to use legs or a whip, he should be well enough trained that he just does it, whatever it is you're doing

He's a shetland - that's about as much of an explanation to his behaviour that is needed lol! I mean, I can put up with the biting, kicking, bolshy, stubborn behaviour that is stereotyped to these ponies but his head is really heavy!!!

 

[stacey_lou]

Well it's simple, you should train him better You shouldn't need to use legs or a whip, he should be well enough trained that he just does it, whatever it is you're doing

Ha ha, yea good one. I would love to know the secret to getting a horse over big questions with out EVER using a whip for a shoulder Tap or a legs. I spoke with Mary once and she said if she feels her horse may refuse a fence or run out 3/4 strides off she would giver her horse a couple of smacks on the shoulder then another one stride of to insure they jump it and by heck actually it works!! so I hold my hands up to i use a short whip when jumping across country!

 

[kickonchaps]

Ha ha, yea good one. I would love to know the secret to getting a horse over big questions with out EVER using a whip for a shoulder Tap or a legs. I spoke with Mary once and she said if she feels her horse may refuse a fence or run out 3/4 strides off she would giver her horse a couple of smacks on the shoulder then another one stride of to insure they jump it and by heck actually it works!! so I hold my hands up to i use a short whip when jumping across country!

With you on that, I know exactly which fences I'm likely to have problems with (either me being wimpy or the horse) and I override them completely, slap on the shoulder for both the last strides, but it gets us over in a nice forward rhythm with no backing off, and I would expect the next time I encountered that fence we'd both be more confident than if I relied on kicking and we had a bit of a catleap over.

And I will also freely admit that there have been times in the past when I've lost my temper at my horse over a dirty stop and walloped him, as much from frustration as from the belief it'll actually do any good. It ain't big and it ain't clever, and with a clear head and the power of hindsight I do feel bad, but I don't think there's a rider on the planet who can honestly say they've never lost control at any point, horses can be a pain in the a**e!!! The important thing is you learn from every stupid mistake, dirty stop and moment of madness, and make sure you address it in your training before you put yourself back in that situation.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Ha ha, yea good one. I would love to know the secret to getting a horse over big questions with out EVER using a whip for a shoulder Tap or a legs. I spoke with Mary once and she said if she feels her horse may refuse a fence or run out 3/4 strides off she would giver her horse a couple of smacks on the shoulder then another one stride of to insure they jump it and by heck actually it works!! so I hold my hands up to i use a short whip when jumping across country!

And there was me thinking that if you attached a carrot to the end of your stick and dangled in infront of the horse you would have a much better chance of going clear round a cross country course - You learn something new everyday!

 

[1stclassalan]

They aren't being smacked to make them jump?!! There isn't a stick in the world that'll make over half a tonne jump, if it doesn't want to. The smacks are there to pick them up - to make them listen - to tune them back in.

You only have to see horses mutual grooming to know that they do not experience pain like we do. What they do to each other for pleasure - would HURT me!! Then add the adrenaline into the equation and those measley smacks are like peeing in the wind really, but they often suffice to wake a horse up and get its mind back on the game. If that results in a safe jump, where otherwise there may have been a fall. I'm all for it.

Hmmm, well now - I quite like to watch American Football and would have played it given half a chance - it's a game of chess coupled with constructed violence. One of the most longlived players of all time is a guy called Bret Farve - he played an unbelievable number of consecutive games despite taking fantastic hits pretty regularly - he has been quoted as saying that he likes to get a few bashes early in the game to wake him up!

This all fine and dandy for a ( so called ) thinking person to indulge in gladatorial sport - but placing a horse in similar circumstances is far from humane and belies this country's reputation as being a nation of horse lovers and I'm amazed that eventing hasn't raised more public outrage than it has.

Luckily - and it is mostly luck - the number of horses killed at events is less than racing, this is largely because of better qualifying procedures and the fact that horses are traveling slower; however; the obstacles are infinitely more dangerous so when things go wrong they usually go badly wrong. When evaluating the relevant problems - what happens off course must be taken into account and there are many horse deaths at qualifying events to consider. Human ego is to blame in most of these tradegies - many owners like the idea of a horse in the Grand National who should never be anywhere near Aintree fences and with eventing prize money and sponsorship at dizzying levels the risks are there too.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Well, he deserves to be battered to within an inch of his life for just that 1 reason...

Really? You'd give him a whole inch?!? Your very generous!

 

[Mrs B]

Well, he deserves to be battered to within an inch of his life for just that 1 reason...

Oooh yes! Shetland tempura....

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

yes, just so i could do it all again the following day

Ah! I see your logic now! Maybe I should try the whole inch thing as it normally takes a couple of days to get him right enough again to start over again!

 

[thumperbos]

I don't usually reply to threads with such topics but I have to completely agree with pastie2 on this one. I love being a part of this sport and we were lucky enough to witness some superb displays of complete harmony between horse and rider, as well as some mis-communications..! And I for one have to applaud Toddy's masterful show of horsemanship in educating this relatively young and inexperienced horse (at this level) round the course. For me, it was a joy to watch and I'm sorry that not everyone saw it that way. X

 

[skewbald_again]

with eventing prize money and sponsorship at dizzying levels the risks are there too.

Don't take much to make you dizzy, I must say.

Steer clear of premiership football and formula one or you'll need a glass of water and a lie down.

 

[asyouwish]

Does anyone have footage of this apparently brutal whipping? I would like to see for myself rather than judging on what others are saying.

And why has an apparently 3 stikes to make a horse listen turned into an eventing VS racing debate.

 

[LEC]

Do you know the full history of Emily and Drivetime? He is one of the most talented horses on the circuit. This horse has won countless events over the years including Hartpury 3*. This is not the first time he has done this at the Badminton lake and the lake was not hard this year if the horse was genuine. Drivetime was not genuine and frankly after his smacks (with a racing whip which is very padded) he jumped in. This one stop cost the pair dearly for many long term things. Up to that point the horse was jumping and galloping for fun. Threads like this infuriate me as the majority of you do not have a clue.

 

[teagreen]

Does anyone have footage of this apparently brutal whipping? I would like to see for myself rather than judging on what others are saying.

And why has an apparently 3 stikes to make a horse listen turned into an eventing VS racing debate.

It hasn't - I'm the one who started it, and it wasnt my intention to debate it because I fully support the use of the whip in racing and the use of the whip in eventing. I was using this event as an example - jockeys whip their tired horses who are 'giving everything', eventers whip their tired horses who are 'giving everything', but judging by the response both parties get, the horses aren't giving everything and the use of the whip is justified.

Racing is getting a lot of stick for its whip right now, what I was saying is that this (and other sports) is the same.

 

[NinjaPony]

Wow. Those 3 smacks have clearly beaten Land Vision to an inch of his life, and he is exhausted. No wonder he failed his trot up and was eliminated!!


Oh wait.....



Why don't you all go and give Mark Todd, who has just won Badminton for the 4th time, your advice. I am sure he would appreciate it.

 

[asyouwish]

It hasn't - I'm the one who started it, and it wasnt my intention to debate it because I fully support the use of the whip in racing and the use of the whip in eventing. I was using this event as an example - jockeys whip their tired horses who are 'giving everything', eventers whip their tired horses who are 'giving everything', but judging by the response both parties get, the horses aren't giving everything and the use of the whip is justified.

Racing is getting a lot of stick for its whip right now, what I was saying is that this (and other sports) is the same.

I wasnt meaning any offence by the way I was just wondering how as I kinda got lost halfway through this thread

 

[skewbald_again]

Wow. Those 3 smacks have clearly beaten Land Vision to an inch of his life, and he is exhausted. No wonder he failed his trot up and was eliminated!!


Oh wait.....



Why don't you all go and give Mark Todd, who has just won Badminton for the 4th time, your advice. I am sure he would appreciate it.

Exactly. The reason the op made me so cross. 'Mark Todd shouldn't have ...'

And YOU are?

 

[paulineh]

The difference with endurance is you aren't putting your life at risk if your horse doesn't go off your leg the moment you ask him to, which I imagine is why spurs are allowed in eventing. And I've seen some pretty horrific riding at endurance events as well with exhausted horses so it's by no means fault-free itself

I am not saying that thinks do not happen at the lower levels only that we do not need a whip or spurs. As for the horse not reacting off the leg,we also need to have a responsive horse too as we travel at speed through woods, rough tracks and up & down big hills (Exmoor)

 

[suzysparkle]

First it was the Grand National then it was the Scottish National now its Badminton. Really are any of you meally mouthed anti anything that asks the ultimate question from a horse that has been very well prepared and fit, to do a job with a rider who is one of the top event riders in the world, in a position to voice your rediculous opinions? You are a joke, all of you, armchair jockies and armchair riders who most probably wouldnt know how to see a stride into a cross pole!!

Totally agree with this. I can't believe some of the tripe I've read on here. As for OP - what a truly horrible person you are wishing for a Horse to fail a trot up. Ok maybe some of the punishing smacks after refusals looked a bit nasty but I'm sure the majority of riders have smacked Horses in the heat of the moment. I highly doubt you can inflict that much pain on a Horse with a riding whip, especially when the adrenalin is pumping.

 

[Mrs B]

I am not saying that thinks do not happen at the lower levels only that we do not need a whip or spurs. As for the horse not reacting off the leg,we also need to have a responsive horse too as we travel at speed through woods, rough tracks and up & down big hills (Exmoor)

Oh, ok then. You are travelling at speed (a good hand canter) along a downhill track in a wood which may have a few rocks or tree roots along the way shall we say - for a worst case scenario?

Yes. I can see just how easy that is to compare with Badminton.

 

[Ranyhyn]

Isn't it funny how generally, you wont see other professional riders slating their competition. When interviewers ask them about other riders issues, they usually comiserate or agree with the issue etc but they very rarely run someone else down.

But you come on here and people are full of it!! None as queer as folk eh?!

 

[EAST KENT]

For goodness sake! Having watched this event now,every smack produced the desired result that I saw.The grey refusing at that water,got a reminder and went on through next time. Whips in racing are heavily padded,and often times are waved so the horse`s eye sees it,,it dies`nt actually strike.
Toddy esp. was riding a tired horse,so he dragged a leg and perked up with a reminder, really tired horses were pulled out mid run..what more do you want? Keep to your little ponies and their stripey velvet browbands and leave our professionals alone .

 

[kickonchaps]

I am not saying that thinks do not happen at the lower levels only that we do not need a whip or spurs. As for the horse not reacting off the leg,we also need to have a responsive horse too as we travel at speed through woods, rough tracks and up & down big hills (Exmoor)

A good endurance horse looks after itself a lot of the time though, realistically if you're having to set your horse up every time you encounter a tree branch you'll both be knackered by the end, that's what so great about Arabs, they're clever on their feet and nimble and you can trust them to go up and down sharp inclines without having to fuss around too much. Arabs are also the type of horses who form an intense bond with their rider and will push themselves literally to the point of death before they'll give up, which is again why they're so good at endurance. After 80 miles of racing, quite rightly you shouldn't be using spurs and a whip to make an exhausted horse cross the finish line faster.

But if your horse gets a bit lazy and unresponsive and trips over its own feet, or you miss a turn, the chances are it'll pick itself up again and carry on but being a bit more careful. If you're unlucky it'll hurt itself, but it would really take some doing for a tired/unresponsive horse to hurtle through the air on an endurance ride and land on TOP of its rider. THAT'S why eventers need an extra something, because the risk of death is genuine and there won't be many who rode round Badminton at the weekend who don't know someone who's made a mistake and paid for it in the worst way.

Every discipline is different, and every one of us will quite understandably defend our discipline if other people are attacking it. To lump them all in together and make comparisons is a waste of time, and quite frankly demeaning to our sport as a whole - a marathon runner, a sprinter and an 800m runner don't get compared, so why should an eventer, an endurance rider and a NH jockey?!