inconsiderate whip use at badminton

[paulmac]

It amazes me the c***some people spout on this forum. We have probably the best riders in the world competing on some fabulous horses. Vets and officials are on hand to ensure that horses are fit to compete and are not abused or ill teated. The course is designed to challenge the fitness and skill of both the horse and rider. It is not advisable for any rider to bring home an injured or exhausted horse because it will fail the vetting and not make the final stage of the competition.

I have watched Mark Todd's round and I have no problems at all with his use of the whip. I see worse at almost every horse show where loads of mediocre riders use strong bits with double reins and not a clue how to use them.

Why don't you just sit back and appreciate the excellent riding, and courage of horses and riders. I only wish I had the skill these riders have. Mr Todd can come and ride my horse any time

 

[CastleMouse]

We'll see when the FEI list of yellow cards issued is published at a later stage. The officials WILL issue a yellow card if they feel that it's necessary.

 

[Ranyhyn]

There were some lovely rounds today with bright perky horses, but I'm sorry I do not agree that an extremely tired horse should be smacked to make it jump a fence

They aren't being smacked to make them jump?!! There isn't a stick in the world that'll make over half a tonne jump, if it doesn't want to. The smacks are there to pick them up - to make them listen - to tune them back in.

You only have to see horses mutual grooming to know that they do not experience pain like we do. What they do to each other for pleasure - would HURT me!! Then add the adrenaline into the equation and those measley smacks are like peeing in the wind really, but they often suffice to wake a horse up and get its mind back on the game. If that results in a safe jump, where otherwise there may have been a fall. I'm all for it.

 

[martyfisch]

I'll also put it out there that it looked like MT had a race whip, therefore more padded and softer on the horse.

 

[LizzyandToddy]

Some people do talk absolute horse ****e on this forum they really do. Mark todd's horse had his ears pricked to ever fence, smack or not. There is nothing wrong with giving the horse a reminder, it was not overuse, he was hardly beating it every single stride of the way, now was he?

The smack, if indeed most of these people were even paying attention, was simply a reminder to pick his legs up, and wasn't that sharp either. He gave him a tap, and funnily enough the horse responded, picked up, galloped off home clear as a daisy and passed the trot up this morning.

Other than one withdrawal after cross country every horse has passed the trot up. So they haven't 'finished lame'. I think its very inconsiderate of people on here to be quite so narrow minded and would love to see what half of these people would have done given that the rider has the weight of sponsorship, owners, grooms and everyone that has put something into this horse to uphold.

At the end of the day Mark Todd loves that horse and had he thought for one moment it was in jeopardy or out of it's depth he would have pulled up. Stop being quite so radical sitting in your arm chairs criticising others, when quite frankly you don't know enough about a situation to critic!

 

[Fellewell]

Anyone who thinks they can criticise Mark Todd obviously doesn't know what they're talking about. Yes the horse was tired as most were, but needed picking up because he still had some gas in the tank, as Mark proved.

Felt very sorry for Ruth Edge.

Opposition Buzz and Nicola Wilson - what a combination!

 

[DragonSlayer]

Armchair critics are always amusing.

I'va already asked someone called amanda on the other thread for a video of her riding so I can CC it, seeing as I'm an Expert of Many Years.

Be interesting to see if the video comes to light, then we can compare it to the woman she called a crap rider.

 

[Amaranta]

Have you ever ridden round Badminton or even aspired to Novice eventing? In fact all of you who are critical about the riding at Badminton, could you do it? Would you have the knowledge or the balls to even attempt too? If not then shut up. You are all nit picking and loving it. I would love to see some of you on a horse, let alone a fit horse prepared and keen to do its job over a course like that. Perhaps you should put yourselves forward and offer your knowledge to the likes of Mark Todd, I am sure he would welcome some contructive advice from you.

Oh very well said Pastie!

Makes me laugh the way people feel that they have the experience or the skills to criticise riders who are way way above them. I too would like to pop them on a fit eventer and let them show us how it is done around Badminton, I'm up for a good laugh!

 

[amandap]

I'va already asked someone called amanda on the other thread for a video of her riding so I can CC it, seeing as I'm an Expert of Many Years.

Be interesting to see if the video comes to light, then we can compare it to the woman she called a crap rider.

Are you talking about me? You'll have to point me to it if you are.

 

[Holly Hocks]

Have you ever ridden round Badminton or even aspired to Novice eventing? In fact all of you who are critical about the riding at Badminton, could you do it? Would you have the knowledge or the balls to even attempt too? If not then shut up. You are all nit picking and loving it. I would love to see some of you on a horse, let alone a fit horse prepared and keen to do its job over a course like that. Perhaps you should put yourselves forward and offer your knowledge to the likes of Mark Todd, I am sure he would welcome some contructive advice from you.

*Snort*...Go Pastie, Go Pastie, Go Pastie!! Lets face it, he's been in the sport longer than some of the forum members have been born.....I think that speaks volumes!

 

[kickonchaps]

*Snort*...Go Pastie, Go Pastie, Go Pastie!! Lets face it, he's been in the sport longer than some of the forum members have been born.....I think that speaks volumes!

And he can jump clear round Badminton with only one stirrup!! I bet there are plenty of people who couldn't canter a circuit of their arena with one stirrup haha

ETA I used to be one of them before anyone gives me the ol' 'let's see what you can do then...'

 

[foraday]

Sorry am I missing the point here totally! Which Badminton was the OP watching!

Yes the horse was tired but then so were many others which was very strange! The horse in question was it's first go at 4**** and on the approach to the quarry you can see an extra stride was put in by the horse when Toddy clearly asked for it to take off and was ignored!

Could be greeness could be a situation where the horse thinks it knows best and does what it thinks! The quarry itself did pose an interesting question to horses.

I only saw Toddy hit the horse 3 times to get it up and over the fence after the quarry log-the horses ears were pricked when jumping. Hardly cause for 'inconsiderate whip use' calls

Horses at the end were all jumped off of and watered down! As were any horses that fell or retired on course. The proper thing to do-water off, scrape down, water off, scrape down and so on!

I do not understand the OP comparison to racing either

I for one would let Toddy ride my 3*** ned anyday

 

[MagicMelon]

I saw several horses today getting several sharp reminders with the whip, including very tired horses galloping on the flat who were getting whipped to go faster towards the end. And Todd hitting his too. Where does this differ from racing? They guy towards the end on the chestnut horse was sure using his spurs, why are they not considered cruel like the whip is in racing?

I didnt like that I must say - hitting their horses 3 or 4 times in a row on the flat to get them to go faster when they were already tired. I hate when they do this in racing too. How come spurs arent allowed in racing but are for eventing? IMO, they shouldnt be allowed.

 

[paulineh]

Very interesting post.

As an Endurance rider I have followed this and the posts about the Grand National. Both in the respect of the use of the whip and the dehydration etc.

The average speed of a horse at badminton is about 22kph for a distance of 4 plus miles.

During an Fei endurance event 1) we are not allowed a whip at all 2) the average speed is well over 20kph for 100 miles and 3) we know how to cool our horses. We also are never allowed spurs.

It will be interesting to see what Mary King thinks about riding at the "Golden Horse Shoe" She will be riding the first 25 miles of the 100 but will be riding an experienced endurance horse though.

 

[kickonchaps]

Very interesting post.

As an Endurance rider I have followed this and the posts about the Grand National. Both in the respect of the use of the whip and the dehydration etc.

The average speed of a horse at badminton is about 22kph for a distance of 4 plus miles.

During an Fei endurance event 1) we are not allowed a whip at all 2) the average speed is well over 20kph for 100 miles and 3) we know how to cool our horses. We also are never allowed spurs.

It will be interesting to see what Mary King thinks about riding at the "Golden Horse Shoe" She will be riding the first 25 miles of the 100 but will be riding an experienced endurance horse though.

The difference with endurance is you aren't putting your life at risk if your horse doesn't go off your leg the moment you ask him to, which I imagine is why spurs are allowed in eventing. And I've seen some pretty horrific riding at endurance events as well with exhausted horses so it's by no means fault-free itself

 

[Voltarama]

mark todd shouldnt have hit the horse that many times when it was ob so tired.
just to jump the last few fences was it worth it.
hope horse fails vetting 2mrw.
pride at finishing before horses wellfare.
in racing jockeys get repramanded for hitting tired horses

I just watched the very jump I think you're talking about. I can only assume you are a troll. The horse left its' back legs behind on the jump just before it, there were only three or four strides to the next jump. He used his whip to get the horse moving forward. A horse moving forward over a jump is a lot safer than a horse NOT moving forward.

Seriously - Mark Todd doesn't have to prove anything at all. Horse finished - sure it was tired, but most horses are after finishing the xc. If he'd had to do that on three jumps in a row, then sure, the horse is too tired and should be retired. but it was the only use of the whip I saw and I've got to say, he is one of the best xc riders. You never see him pulling on the horses mouth to keep his balance or anything else that some of the other 4* riders do.

 

[teagreen]

See, people who know what they're talking about are getting upset because people have criticised their sport - it's the same for me with racing. There are good reasons why racing is as it is, and good reasons why eventing is as it is and people who have never been involved with racehorses/involved in eventing shouldn't be meddling with it. These animal rights folk will get racing changed, then they'll get other horse sports changed.

 

[Tinker_Belle]

I'm glad I've seen this post as having watched Badminton today, the only rider I had an issue with was Sam Griffiths. Having said that though, there could have been a perfectly good reason for his whip use that I didn't see so I'm not prepared to bitch about it.

The rest of the riders usng whips were as far as I could see to encourage a slightly lazy horse or one who had begun to lose concentration. I'd far rather see a rider wake a horse up and getting it going forward safely with a sharp tap or two of the whip than see a rotational fall because the horse was going badly and the rider too afraid to use the whip for fear of comeback.
It's extremely dangerous for a horse to approach jumps such as the Badminton ones without it's mind on the job and it just throwing itself in to the jump and hoping for the best.

In my experience, a whip is there for discipline and to remind a horse that he actually does have a job to do. It's never nice to see a whip being used but it's a necessary evil IMO.
I know from my own experience and my own horse that sometimes, a short sharp tap gets things back in to persective for the horse and reminds it just what it is there to do.

 

[Jesstickle]

Well, Clearly MT's horse was traumatised and exhausted form yesterday given that it's just jumped clear inside the time to win *rolls eyes*

 

[angelish]

mark todd shouldnt have hit the horse that many times when it was ob so tired.
just to jump the last few fences was it worth it.
hope horse fails vetting 2mrw.
pride at finishing before horses wellfare.
in racing jockeys get repramanded for hitting tired horses

 

[LCH611]

I do hope that all those that were so quick to slate Toddy yesterday now have the grace to acknowledge that he was correct to assess the horse as fit to carry on - it was clearly sound enough to pass the Ground Jury and looked as fresh as a daisy having pooped round the SJ to win! I guess the moral is that a masterly horseman with all the years of experience that he has, should not take any notice of armchair critics!

 

[kickonchaps]

lol!!!

 

[lialls]

There were some lovely rounds today with bright perky horses, but I'm sorry I do not agree that an extremely tired horse should be smacked to make it jump a fence

I agree with this. If the horse is so tired it might make a mistake jumping then it should be pulled up..

 

[Mondy]

It never ceases to amaze me how normalised it has become for people to 'smack' their horse.

It is inexcusable, really, when practised to the extent Emily Baldwin, no.81, did at the cross country water jump. Ugly and disgraceful treatment.

And regarding the 'sit still and be quiet'-shouters, I should like them to consider that some people here have other objectives in working with horses. For some, it is not the mark of a 'good' rider that they ride fast and jump high; why should the bad riders at Badminton be applauded - and excused their whip-use - simply on such spurious grounds? I would not want to pursue a kind of riding that legitimises 'smacking' my horse to make him 'pay attention'.

 

[Jesstickle]

It never ceases to amaze me how normalised it has become for people to 'smack' their horse.

I would say that without a shadow of a doubt whip use has decreased steadily for about a hundred years. How can it have become 'normalised'? That makes absolutely no sense at all given that we started with more than we have now. People clearly have become more uncomfortable with excessive use of the whip rather than vice versa.

 

[Mrs B]

It never ceases to amaze me how normalised it has become for people to 'smack' their horse.

It is inexcusable, really, when practised to the extent Emily Baldwin, no.81, did at the cross country water jump. Ugly and disgraceful treatment.

And regarding the 'sit still and be quiet'-shouters, I should like them to consider that some people here have other objectives in working with horses. For some, it is not the mark of a 'good' rider that they ride fast and jump high; why should the bad riders at Badminton be applauded - and excused their whip-use - simply on such spurious grounds? I would not want to pursue a kind of riding that legitimises 'smacking' my horse to make him 'pay attention'.

It always amuses me that you feel you need to inform us all not only that you're at Oxford, plus (to emphasise quite how clever you are) you then attempt to cross pollinate a Latin quote with having a go at rollkur, now you write this sort of pompous twaddle!

 

[Gingerwitch]

I am so sorry to read this post - to have a horse and rider partnership in a 4* event, takes knowledge, compassion, time, effort and ability. A thing sadly lacking in many of the armchair critiqes brigade - tell me now when was the last time you went for a gallop on a strong horse? ever had a horse lock onto the wrong fence? I am suprised your not critisising Mary Kings position at the water jump too - ah well - can i get your autograph at you next teleivised event? - urm thought not.

I just watched the re- run and i honestly thought i would be shouting at the telly the way the "beating of a collapsing horse" image was being portrayed - what i saw was a horse a little bit mentally tired - hes only 10 after all and a lot of questions were being asked of him - that needed a "come on get - your mind on this" reminder. The horse picked up well, came home - yes looking weary but boy did he look well in the SJ phase today - so yes i can see why the horse was so traumatised - and do you really think the majority of these riders "beat" to gain trust in the relationship - as many will tell you a loss of confidence in a horse/rider combination either way will result in some pretty certain refusals at this level,

 

[Vetty]

Mark Todd's reputation and record speak for themselves. Of all the riders I watched yesterday XC the today SJ his judgement of the horse and situation is one I trust..... He is such a horseman and always seems to ride so considerately, I also think his use of the whip yesterday was timely and appropriate.

I couldn't be happier that MT won today. I am also thrilled that all the horses presented passed the trot up and so many looked fantastic in the SJ, Imperial Cavalier and Jakarta in particular.......

I am an armchair eventing fan but I have a friend who events at a high level and I can vouch for 4* horses not being easy rides!!!

 

[skewbald_again]

QR I haven't read this whole thread, as to be honest, my computer might not survive - but the first post made me very cross, and I felt I had to comment, so if a lot of people have said the same, I apologise.
Mark Todd is a consummate professional, and he carried that horse home. That the horse came out today looking like it did and jumped clear to win? Well there you go.
The kind of people who really shouldn't be let near a horse are the kind who don't know what the hell they're talking about but can't stop talking about it, and opine thatt they 'hope a horse fails the vet' i.e. is injured.
Just almost too cross to type and remembering why I don't come here very often any more.

 

[Kadastorm]

QR I haven't read this whole thread, as to be honest, my computer might not survive - but the first post made me very cross, and I felt I had to comment, so if a lot of people have said the same, I apologise.
Mark Todd is a consummate professional, and he carried that horse home. That the horse came out today looking like it did and jumped clear to win? Well there you go.
The kind of people who really shouldn't be let near a horse are the kind who don't know what the hell they're talking about but can't stop talking about it, and opine thatt they 'hope a horse fails the vet' i.e. is injured.
Just almost too cross to type and remembering why I don't come here very often any more.

^^ very well said!