inconsiderate whip use at badminton

[amandap]

We all have to do things we do not want to do and often for financial motivation, why should a horse be different? They do after all unless you have endless sums of money have to earn their keep.

This is perhaps for me the real issue. I choose to keep horses, I don't earn a living from them but I suppose I could choose to, as many do.
Whichever scenario we are talking about using another animal to make a living not using ourselves. We are in control and make this choice, I don't believe horses choose to go and work for someone to earn their keep though.
Much of what we do is a compromise for us and for the horses but for me when this compromise starts to negatively affect or hurt the horse I feel an unfair balance is happening. I don't feel I have a right to hurt a horse to force it to 'earn it's keep'.
As many keep saying , horses are not humans and in truth they have little choice in their lives and in the main happily and willingly go along with all our asks and quirks. In return I feel I have a duty to ensure that I listen and do my best to keep him healthy, happy and safe and feel secure. Being responsible for any animal is a big ask and it shouldn't be all one sided imo.
Horses live, breathe and have opinions and emotions I want to try and take account of that not just do what I want regardless of what the horse thinks about it.

Mta. I'm talking in general here btw.

 

[Allover]

OK you can keep the child gymnast analogy

Much of what we do is a compromise for us and for the horses but for me when this compromise starts to negatively affect or hurt the horse I feel an unfair balance is happening. I don't feel I have a right to hurt a horse to force it to 'earn it's keep'.
As many keep saying , horses are not humans and in truth they have little choice in their lives and in the main happily and willingly go along with all our asks and quirks. In return I feel I have a duty to ensure that I listen and do my best to keep him healthy, happy and safe and feel secure. Being responsible for any animal is a big ask and it shouldn't be all one sided imo.
Horses live, breathe and have opinions and emotions I want to try and take account of that not just do what I want regardless of what the horse thinks about it.



Completely agree

 

[lannerch]

I would not choose to go and earn my keep either the same as a dairy cow does not choose to earn its keep by having its calf taken away when it is a day or so old.

A rabbit does not choose to be eaten by a fox life is unfair we cannot do what we choose, whether we be man or beast!

Most professional riders whose horses certainly have to earn their keep would also feel they have a duty to keep them healthy happy and safe they have a vested interest to do this , as a happy healthy horse is also a winning horse which is why many hapily turn their valuable animals out and let them be a horse.

Going back to mark todd, if he had run his horse to the ground do you really think it would have come out so fresh and jumped so well for him the next day.
Mark todd is a true proffesional, and he lets his horses be horses and I for one would totally trust his judgement on when to pull up and when to nurse home!

 

[lannerch]

Hope I am not coming across as too argumentative I am dosed up to the eyeballs on painkillers from a heavy fall from a horse I am schooling when it choose not to jump a cross country fence!

 

[Cadfael&Coffee]

just to throw my two cents in...

The way that Drivetime was punished was completely overboard, the horse did NOT know what he was being punished for, and all she did by doing so was to upset him into a bucking fit.

i may not be a 4* rider, but i saw that stop coming as she went into the fence- it was complete rider error, and the horse should not have been walloped for it. IMHO she had a tantrum because she knew damn well that she should have kept him going.

Mark Todd was a different matter- not once did he raise his whip in anger, nor did he run his horse into the ground. yes, it was very very tired, but it was in no way on the verge of collapse, nor was it beaten across the fences and finish line, as some posters seem to think!!

not like andreas whatsit- that was, quite frankly, disgusting.

 

[Equibrit]

In order to make a judgement on this matter you would have to be aware of what THIS particular horse needed in this situation. I would hazard a guess that none of you know better than Mark Todd with regard to THIS horse and THIS situation. In absence of any knowledge this is all s--t stirring gossip and speculation.

 

[amandap]

Hope I am not coming across as too argumentative I am dosed up to the eyeballs on painkillers from a heavy fall from a horse I am schooling when it choose not to jump a cross country fence!

Not at all. Hope you feel better soon.

 

[Allover]

In order to make a judgement on this matter you would have to be aware of what THIS particular horse needed in this situation. I would hazard a guess that none of you know better than Mark Todd with regard to THIS horse and THIS situation. In absence of any knowledge this is all s--t stirring gossip and speculation.

Whoa steady up there

It is not s*** stirring gossip and speculation, it is people on a forum discussing whether it is right to smack a horse or not. The majority of people on this thread have said that they would trust Marks judgment on any of their horses but that some of the other professional riders had their timing all wrong or caused the problem in the first place, in which case should they then be able to pick up the whip and give the horse a good whallop for their mistake?

I think most people on here know the difference between the two situations and are also well within their rights to have an opinion

 

[beth123]

Whoa steady up there

It is not s*** stirring gossip and speculation, it is people on a forum discussing whether it is right to smack a horse or not. The majority of people on this thread have said that they would trust Marks judgment on any of their horses but that some of the other professional riders had their timing all wrong or caused the problem in the first place, in which case should they then be able to pick up the whip and give the horse a good whallop for their mistake?

I think most people on here know the difference between the two situations and are also well within their rights to have an opinion

ive only just read this, but .... seriously??! now were not allowed to slap horses and tell them to pick there feet up, without being labeled a horse beater. and as for jasom maguire being a 'thug', for 'excessive' use of the whip. racing sticks dont hurt, he cant use it above hsi shoulder. and did the horse look in pain for the skolding it got?? errrrr no.
A lso if you love horses so much and worry so much about there welfare, why are you hoping a horse fails the trot up, surely then it would be in pain?

 

[Allover]

Beth123 did you mean to quote me then?

 

[kirstyl]

just to throw my two cents in...

The way that Drivetime was punished was completely overboard, the horse did NOT know what he was being punished for, and all she did by doing so was to upset him into a bucking fit.

i may not be a 4* rider, but i saw that stop coming as she went into the fence- it was complete rider error, and the horse should not have been walloped for it. IMHO she had a tantrum because she knew damn well that she should have kept him going.

Mark Todd was a different matter- not once did he raise his whip in anger, nor did he run his horse into the ground. yes, it was very very tired, but it was in no way on the verge of collapse, nor was it beaten across the fences and finish line, as some posters seem to think!!

not like andreas whatsit- that was, quite frankly, disgusting.

Agree with you entirely

 

[Over2You]

ive only just read this, but .... seriously??! now were not allowed to slap horses and tell them to pick there feet up, without being labeled a horse beater. and as for jasom maguire being a 'thug', for 'excessive' use of the whip. racing sticks dont hurt, he cant use it above hsi shoulder. and did the horse look in pain for the skolding it got?? errrrr no.
A lso if you love horses so much and worry so much about there welfare, why are you hoping a horse fails the trot up, surely then it would be in pain?

Eh, 'excessive' use of the whip? He got BANNED because it WAS excessive use of the whip!! In fact, it was just a month after he got handed a ban because he had MARKED a horse during a race!! Did you even watch the National? Every time he struck Ballabriggs (which was more than a dozen times from last fence to finish), he had the whip OVER his shoulder. Over the period of just three months, he has received four bans. Unfortunately, he had two if not three of those quashed. At least his National ban stuck.

 

[beth123]

Eh, 'excessive' use of the whip? He got BANNED because it WAS excessive use of the whip!! In fact, it was just a month after he got handed a ban because he had MARKED a horse during a race!! Did you even watch the National? Every time he struck Ballabriggs (which was more than a dozen times from last fence to finish), he had the whip OVER his shoulder. Over the period of just three months, he has received four bans. Unfortunately, he had two if not three of those quashed. At least his National ban stuck.

maybe he got caught up in the moment adrenelin pumping, but to label him a 'thug'? i dont think so the horse showed no ill efffects after the race, and to be honest enjoyed every stride off the race! should all horse sport be banned, and all these horses left to rot in fields?

 

[beth123]

Beth123 did you mean to quote me then?

allover, no sorry. new to the forum just about worked it out now!

 

[Over2You]

maybe he got caught up in the moment adrenelin pumping, but to label him a 'thug'? i dont think so the horse showed no ill efffects after the race, and to be honest enjoyed every stride off the race! should all horse sport be banned, and all these horses left to rot in fields?

No ill effects after the race? Ballabriggs NEEDED OXYGEN!! Not to mention the fact that he and a number of the other horses could barely walk!! No ill effects? Don't make me laugh!!

Additionally, I am at a loss to know how you can say that someone who whips a horse so badly that he weals, is not a thug. If anybody did that to my Guy, I would thrash the living daylights out of them!!

 

[lannerch]

What has this got to do with 'inconsiderate whip use at badmington'?

 

[beth123]

No ill effects after the race? Ballabriggs NEEDED OXYGEN!! Not to mention the fact that he and a number of the other horses could barely walk!! No ill effects? Don't make me laugh!!

Additionally, I am at a loss to know how you can say that someone who whips a horse so badly that he weals, is not a thug. If anybody did that to my Guy, I would thrash the living daylights out of them!!

did you not feel the temperature?? and have you ever felt a racing whip? their cushioned, jason could slap me with one if he really wanted! and really ive no idea, just computer 'experts'...

 

[Bug2007]

This one has got some backs up......


nothing more to say than i'll see you all at Badminton next year riding without a whip at all.

I think he did the right thing he didn't lay into the horse unlike the one that stopped at the water, now she was out of order as far as i was concerned.

 

[Allover]

This one has got some backs up......


nothing more to say than i'll see you all at Badminton next year riding without a whip at all.

I think he did the right thing he didn't lay into the horse unlike the one that stopped at the water, now she was out of order as far as i was concerned.

Trust me you wont see me riding round badminton in this life time, nutters the lot of them

 

[Allover]

did you not feel the temperature?? and have you ever felt a racing whip? their cushioned, jason could slap me with one if he really wanted! and really ive no idea, just computer 'experts'...

TBH eternal influences like the ground and the weather should in no way make it excusable that the horse was ridden to the point of exhaustion and needing oxygen (i did not see the national as no televised coverage here and am shocked to know this), IMO there is a line and that line is crossed when the rider, adrenilin pumping or not, gets a horse into that state.

The majority of people on this thread have said that it is acceptable to use the whip as a reminder but not as a means of punishment or as a means to get the horse to collapsing point. That is just abuse. If Ballabrigs had collapsed and died after the race would you still be able to defend the jockey?

 

[beth123]

TBH eternal influences like the ground and the weather should in no way make it excusable that the horse was ridden to the point of exhaustion and needing oxygen (i did not see the national as no televised coverage here and am shocked to know this), IMO there is a line and that line is crossed when the rider, adrenilin pumping or not, gets a horse into that state.

The majority of people on this thread have said that it is acceptable to use the whip as a reminder but not as a means of punishment or as a means to get the horse to collapsing point. That is just abuse. If Ballabrigs had collapsed and died after the race would you still be able to defend the jockey?

I agree that excessive whip use shouldnt be used as punishmennt, but people obviously have their own ideas about what they deem 'excessive'.
as to if the horse had collapsed i would still defend him yes... althought ballabriggs is very tired after the race, in the run in hes what a length infront? and im pretty sure had oscar time come to him, he'd have found abit more. That horse is an exception with a massive heart.

just put this out there, if jason maguire is such a horse beating selfish thug, why did he dismount and walk in on foot? i didnt see anyone telling him to get off, he jumped of instantly!

 

[teagreen]

TBH eternal influences like the ground and the weather should in no way make it excusable that the horse was ridden to the point of exhaustion and needing oxygen (i did not see the national as no televised coverage here and am shocked to know this), IMO there is a line and that line is crossed when the rider, adrenilin pumping or not, gets a horse into that state.

The majority of people on this thread have said that it is acceptable to use the whip as a reminder but not as a means of punishment or as a means to get the horse to collapsing point. That is just abuse. If Ballabrigs had collapsed and died after the race would you still be able to defend the jockey?

Eventing isn't really my 'thing', but I do like to go along to the bigger events on cross country day, and I have seen event horses need oxygen. The finish of the National was very public, but you don't see so much of the finish of eventing, and I think you'd be surprised if you stood at the finish all day, especially on very hot days. Can anyone remember how the horses were finishing at the Beijing Olympics? (genuine question, I can't remember, I remember all the precautions they had set up though)

I saw a few horses at Badminton who equalled Ballabriggs on the exhausted front. However, there was no lasting damage to those event horses or to the racehorses - the next day, Ballabriggs was fine and, for example, Mark Todd's horse was fine. It was just as much 'abuse' seeing those event riders use their legs as opposed to a stick to get their knackered horses over the finish line.

 

[cptrayes]

Additionally, I am at a loss to know how you can say that someone who whips a horse so badly that he weals, is not a thug.

Some thin-skinned thoroughbreds would raise a weal if you breathed on them too hard.

 

[beth123]

Some thin-skinned thoroughbreds would raise a weal if you breathed on them too hard.

hahaha agree!

 

[Allover]

From what í remember of the Beijing Olympics a huge amount of thought and preparation had gone into getting the horses cooled of after the XC, there were water spray tents and the like and also the horses were there a few weeks beforehand (i am willing to be corrected on this) to help acclimatise. But i do remember riders pushing their horses, IMO, too hard on the course. Was it Andrew Nicholson who was riding the older horse round, it was "dead on its feet" and AN was riding it hard right up to the point it fell. This IMO was not a honourable display of horsemanship! Some of the horses coped ok and others didnt. I also remember WFP taking a flier at the last, i thought my heart was going to stop!!!

At the end of the day it boils down to what sits comfortably with the individual, i would never want to ride a horse to the point of exhaustion, i am not talking tired here, and i think when horses get to the point where they cant get enough oxygen into their systems and need help to do so something is wrong with their managment and the riders pushing them that far. There is always another day and who knows the long term damage?

As humans we have a voice, we can pull up when we know we cant go any further, Horses dont, the riders become their voice and a good horseman will do what is best for the animal not for himself or the team and they certainly should not whip them to push themselves over the line.

 

[Allover]

I agree that excessive whip use shouldnt be used as punishmennt, but people obviously have their own ideas about what they deem 'excessive'.
as to if the horse had collapsed i would still defend him yes... althought ballabriggs is very tired after the race, in the run in hes what a length infront? and im pretty sure had oscar time come to him, he'd have found abit more. That horse is an exception with a massive heart.

Now i find it a bit shocking that you would deem it OK to push a horse to the point of collapse and death. IMO that is never OK, regardless of the competition or the horses position in it. The horse having a big heart does not make it OK.

 

[Megan_T]

Frankly, I think it's a trade off. It's not one they can choose, it's one they just get. The best horse I looked after slept in a stable underneath my bed. If he had a problem, I got up, simple as. All the others were as indulged, but for their bedroom
Top nutrition, back care, dental care, tack, rugs, feed, veterinary attention, training ... life of riley. Not the point of course if they secretly wanted to be a folk singer, but we can't help that.
Equally some horses are out in all weathers, covered in mud, and if they're lucky, otherwise healthy. If they're not, riddled with worms, under or over fed, misunderstood, uncomfortable and cold. We can't know if they'd rather be a rockstar.
Some get lucky, they get the middle ground, and it's the exact place they fit.
I know when I was working, my boys would not have known what to do with mud, cold, and untrained riders. They were happy enough. They loved the crowds, and they loved their slaves.
We can't overthink it. It just is.
If we're going to act on anything, it must be palpable cruelty, like live export.

Brilliant post, well said.

 

[Megan_T]

...which will hopefully then trickle down to unaffiliated where I believe the majority of whip abuse occurs (just go watch a local hunter trial for whip tantrums).

Pip6 you are SO right - I went to a small local show last weekend with my friend and saw so many teengers whipping the ar*e off their horses and ponies. I was quite shocked to be honest, no-one batted an eyelid. I even said to my friend when we were watching that if she treated a horse like that at a higher level event, she'd be reprimanded for mis-use of the whip!

Barmy really.

 

[Over2You]

I agree that excessive whip use shouldnt be used as punishmennt, but people obviously have their own ideas about what they deem 'excessive'.
as to if the horse had collapsed i would still defend him yes... althought ballabriggs is very tired after the race, in the run in hes what a length infront? and im pretty sure had oscar time come to him, he'd have found abit more. That horse is an exception with a massive heart.

just put this out there, if jason maguire is such a horse beating selfish thug, why did he dismount and walk in on foot? i didnt see anyone telling him to get off, he jumped of instantly!

So, you are saying that thrashing a horse more than a dozen times over a very short distance is okay? I would hate to think what you deem excessive. Better yet, let's get one of those 'pain free' racing whips, and lash you with full force more than twelve times, then we will see how quick you are to advocate their use. As for saying you would still defend that whip happy monster if the horse had collapsed. Well, that just goes to show how little you care about animal welfare. Just as long as the horse gets over the finish line and makes money. To hell with how that is accomplished. What a horrid attitude!!

As for dismounting. The jockeys were TOLD to do that before the race started.

 

[beth123]

So, you are saying that thrashing a horse more than a dozen times over a very short distance is okay? I would hate to think what you deem excessive. Better yet, let's get one of those 'pain free' racing whips, and lash you with full force more than twelve times, then we will see how quick you are to advocate their use. As for saying you would still defend that whip happy monster if the horse had collapsed. Well, that just goes to show how little you care about animal welfare. Just as long as the horse gets over the finish line and makes money. To hell with how that is accomplished. What a horrid attitude!!

As for dismounting. The jockeys were TOLD to do that before the race started.

to me thrashing is an agressive harsh, way were as the 'whipping' that is sued when pushing a racehorse out is a completely different type of 'smack' they actaully really dont hurt, the ammount of times ive been hit across the arse with one from the lads i should know! how i see it is these horses be they eventers, racehorses dressage horses enjoy what they are doing and id much rather one die doing what it loved, adrenelin pumping, crowd cheering than stuck down in a field couldnt get up and not discovered for hours...

Personally i wouldnt push my horses to exhaustion because there not top level horses, but the horses in question are athletes. bred for this, their whole lives have been aimed at it, have you ever felt a super fit horse? dont think you could hurt them with a cushion whip.