Individual turnout

[scats]

I think there’s a world of difference between catering for the horse you have and accepting when there are reasons that that horse needs individual turnout (whether aggressions, bullying, previous serious injury etc) and choosing to keep a horse on individual turnout without exploring other options, just because you prefer that yard or that you think it will be easier to manage your own field… etc

I think most (not all, before I’m leapt on) horses benefit from company and I do think that we have a duty of care to try and offer that if we can, in order that the horse can express natural behaviours with others.
But there will always be the situations where a horse, like conniegirls, cannot be out with another without endangering one or more animal.
In that situation it would be foolish to risk another horse.

 

[skinnydipper]

I've never abused any of my animals, I love them dearly and always have.

Would you like me to direct you to a thread where you posted under one of your other user names where you said you smacked your horse and your dog and 'directed' your dog with your toe?

 

[Tiddlypom]

This thread is assuming that horses do get turned out.

An even bigger issue than whether a horse gets turned out in a group or individually in a well fenced field with horses either side that it can touch and interact with, is whether there is any turnout available at all.

That's my red line. How many yards ban turnout during a long portion of the winter months? Or only have tiny turnout pens where horses spend a short time before being stabled again?

 

[TPO]

This thread is assuming that horses do get turned out.

An even bigger issue than whether a horse gets turned out in a group or individually in a well fenced field with horses either side that it can touch and interact with, is whether there is any turnout available at all.

That's my red line. How many yards ban turnout during a long portion of the winter months? Or only have tiny turnout pens where horses spend a short time before being stabled again?

Some posters have been fine with zero turnout too

The turnout situation with Dani?

I havnt been on here for months now but I have read the article about Dani Goldstein (feathers in her hair in case people are unfamiliar) and how she has declared she doesnt turn her horses out. I am not sure if this has already been discussed but thought I would start a friendly convo. I am...

forums.horseandhound.co.uk

 

[AmyMay]

I think there’s a world of difference between catering for the horse you have and accepting when there are reasons that that horse needs individual turnout (whether aggressions, bullying, previous serious injury etc) and choosing to keep a horse on individual turnout without exploring other options, just because you prefer that yard or that you think it will be easier to manage your own field… etc

I think most (not all, before I’m leapt on) horses benefit from company and I do think that we have a duty of care to try and offer that if we can, in order that the horse can express natural behaviours with others.
But there will always be the situations where a horse, like conniegirls, cannot be out with another without endangering one or more animal.
In that situation it would be foolish to risk another horse.

Thank you.

Amongst some absolute b@ll@cks spouted by the odd poster - a shining example of common sense

 

[Upthecreek]

Horses have evolved, like many domesticated animals that we choose to keep for our own enjoyment. All of these animals (dogs, cats, horses) accept living in an environment that is not the same as it would be if they were not domesticated. Almost everything we do with horses is ‘unnatural’. A horse is only socially isolated if it lives alone with no other equines. It is not socially isolated if it separated from another horse by a fence. I’ve had horses in small herd turnout and on individual turnout with neighbours. The only change when on individual turnout is no injuries and no trashed rugs. Some horses still socialise over the fence, some choose to stand next to each other while they snooze. Some pretty much ignore each other.

If you have your own land with just your own horses herd turnout can work. If you’re on a livery yard with no control over the introduction of new horses it can be an absolute nightmare. I moved mine earlier this year after a mare was kicked to death. It was horrific and there was no obvious reason.

Many issues can be overcome with careful introductions, taking shoes off etc. But if you are on a livery yard with no control over any of that what are you supposed to do? Not keep a horse at all? Find a more suitable yard (which may not exist)?

For me horses must have daily turnout in a herd or individually with neighbours (I don’t mind the odd day staying in if the weather is horrendous). Other than that I make my choices based on what is most suitable for the horse, my preferences and what is available in the locality.

 

[atropa]

Mine are out in a herd at livery, however its a small same sex herd with my 3 and one other. All get on very well and the herd is very stable. Two are shod all round (one of mine and the other livery) and two are barefoot (the other two of mine).
However I have been in a variety of other field situations previously - mixed by height, same sex by height, mixed in a massive free for all...I have been very lucky that mine have always held their own and settled quickly into any turnout situation however I know that is probably down to sheer luck than anything

Eta at my current yard people are reasonably good at speaking to each other to sort introductions...they would tend to split the field with electric fencing first so new horses can meet over a barrier

 

[Caol Ila]

Horses are hardwired to want to be in herds. All horses. But the skills to do so are not hardwired. They are learned. Not all horses get to learn these skills. One of which was Gypsum, my old mare who I PTS at 28 yrs. She had a good inning. But she was a bloody nightmare. Her hardwiring told her she should be in a herd, but her social skills (none, and violent!!) made it impossible for her to be in a herd because she was a health hazard to herself and others. She was also a Godawful fencewalker, and the only way to stop it was for a yard to have the right juju between various individual paddocks. That was fun.

My current two are out in big livery yard herds. Because people like the yard, the herds are only a little bit unstable. Do I worry that they will get a serious kick? Yup. Every day. Are there other options around Glasgow? Nope. Are they generally happier and easier people to manage than Gypsum (yes, even Fin, you weirdo)? Abso-fu*ckin-lutely.

 

[Boulty]

There’s risk to everything we do with horses.

No matter what fencing you use there will always be that one horse that finds a way to injure itself that no sane person would think possible.

No matter how throughly you’ve removed all hazards from the stable/ shelter there will be horses who will still find ways to do horrific things to themselves.

Horses turned out with each other will kick, bite & climb all over each other. Most of the time they get away with it as, well they’re sorta supposed to be able to interact in this way but yes sometimes it does go wrong and of course for each additional horse in a finite amount of space you are increasing that risk.

Horses turned out in a small space are obviously going to be doing more sudden stops / sharp turns more frequently than those in a large space as obviously the fences come up quicker. Does this increase injury risk? I don’t have data to support this theory but logic would say it may do for certain specific types of injury.

A horse living in a flat paddock isn’t going to be as well conditioned to deal with undulations and hills (without additional ridden work on this kind of ground) but equally there are certain medical issues that will do better on perfectly flat ground.

A horse living in an unenriched environment is highly likely to be less mentally happy than one living in an environment where they can make choices even if they’re basic ones like whether to stand in sun or shade, whether to eat hay or grass or the hedge, which hay source to eat from, which water trough / bucket to use, which friend to stand with etc.

Isolation can lead to chronic stress in some horses which can then itself lead to physical issues.

It’s utterly impossible to totally remove risk when it comes to horses. I guess we’ve just got to look at each horse individually as best we can and try to make the choices that make that horse mentally happy and physically happy within the limitations of whether you have your own land or not and what yards are on offer locally (and what we ourselves are happy to compromise on).

 

[Burnttoast]

There’s risk to everything we do with horses.

No matter what fencing you use there will always be that one horse that finds a way to

Horses turned out in a small space are obviously going to be doing more sudden stops / sharp turns more frequently than those in a large space as obviously the fences come up quicker. Does this increase injury risk? I don’t have data to support this theory but logic would say it may do for certain specific types of injury.

I was thinking about fencing too. Yes I've seen a few unpleasant horse on horse injuries, although not on the scale of others here, but equally injuries from fencing, including a degloving from electric rope, a horse that kicked out at his neighbour, somehow got hung up on supposedly horse-safe netting and was found in the morning hung up by his hind legs, one where the horse couldn't stop in time after a mad moment with her neighbour, both in a small individual fields, and went right through post and rail and chipped a bone, and the 5* eventer who obliterated one of his pectoral muscles when he came down on the top of a post presumably when playing with the babies turned out next door overnight. The vet could get his hand in the hole to halfway up his forearm. All when unnecessarily (ie horses with no known issues with others) on individual turnout.

 

[Birker2020]

How distinct is this distinct difference? How do you define a 'hit' versus a 'tap' - is it the force, the hand position, or just the emotion of the handler and whether they want to do the horse damage? If the difference is defined through the force exerted, then you'd really have to consider relative force based on the sensitivity of the area. And the nose, full of whiskers which are sensitive enough to recognise even the slightest changes in the breeze, is pretty sensitive.

So tell me how you would deal with a horse repeatedly biting you over the course of 3 or 4 months? Just curious??

 

[TheMule]

There’s risk to everything we do with horses.

No matter what fencing you use there will always be that one horse that finds a way to injure itself that no sane person would think possible.

No matter how throughly you’ve removed all hazards from the stable/ shelter there will be horses who will still find ways to do horrific things to themselves.

Horses turned out with each other will kick, bite & climb all over each other. Most of the time they get away with it as, well they’re sorta supposed to be able to interact in this way but yes sometimes it does go wrong and of course for each additional horse in a finite amount of space you are increasing that risk.

Horses turned out in a small space are obviously going to be doing more sudden stops / sharp turns more frequently than those in a large space as obviously the fences come up quicker. Does this increase injury risk? I don’t have data to support this theory but logic would say it may do for certain specific types of injury.

A horse living in a flat paddock isn’t going to be as well conditioned to deal with undulations and hills (without additional ridden work on this kind of ground) but equally there are certain medical issues that will do better on perfectly flat ground.

A horse living in an unenriched environment is highly likely to be less mentally happy than one living in an environment where they can make choices even if they’re basic ones like whether to stand in sun or shade, whether to eat hay or grass or the hedge, which hay source to eat from, which water trough / bucket to use, which friend to stand with etc.

Isolation can lead to chronic stress in some horses which can then itself lead to physical issues.

It’s utterly impossible to totally remove risk when it comes to horses. I guess we’ve just got to look at each horse individually as best we can and try to make the choices that make that horse mentally happy and physically happy within the limitations of whether you have your own land or not and what yards are on offer locally (and what we ourselves are happy to compromise on).

Great post

 

[Birker2020]

As I have written loads of times on here I moved to a yard where I was assured turnout was 365 days a year yet it wasn't till I moved and the it came to October and I found out that although turnout was 365 days a year, it meant during winter it was 2 hours a day in a sandpit with A other next door. However, at the time this suited by horse who was recovering from ligament injury and as the fields were peat based they weren't draining in the winter hence the reason a sandpit was used. The time limit of 2 hours was so that all the horses got a turn out during the day.

 

[Lexi 123]

There is serious lack of common sense with posters no wonder horses get killed . Yeah ycbm is correct and very valid your horse is at very high risk of getting killed or seriously injured due to livery herd turnout . I wouldn’t blame anyone who doesn’t allow their horses to go out in herds . I think it’s important to note that livery yards herds aren’t established herd a proper established herd is horses being together for years . Livery yards have a very high turnover rate and yard owners don’t have time for for proper interdictions . So yeah it’s very dangerous and i have seen horses get hurt . I keep my horse on herd turnout

 

[Indy]

If I had to move to a livery yard with my gang of 32, 31, 23 and 16 years of age I wouldn't want them out in a general herd, I'd be worried about them being vulnerable with them being elderly. I'd either have them on individual turnout where they could see each other or ask if I could open up their individual turnouts and they stay in a herd of 4. The 32 and 31 year old have been together since 2003, the 23 year old was added in 2020 and the 16 year old joined in 2011. I think it would be really unfair on them to have to negotiate a completely new herd dynamic with a bunch of strangers.

 

[Goldenstar]

We call it herd turnout out but it’s not a herd ,a true herd is a thing that’s got years of relationships built into it .
I think you need to call it what it is a group a group of unrelated horses in almost all cases crammed into an area that unnaturally small .
Horses are domesticated they have been for a long time .
I feel we need to face up to that fact I think that where the main responsibility for social licence lies .
We face up to that as manage managing the needs of a once wild animal that we have changed a great deal through the thousands of years we have used it .
I think talking of herds gives us a warm feeling but mostly it’s not a herd it is a group of horses thrown together by circumstance if I was feeling depressed I would say they are like refugees who have lost their friends and family thrown into a community .
They get sold or change livery yards they are plucked away from what they know and have to start again .

The reality is that in this country we have more horses than the facility’s and space to keep them well .

 

[ycbm]

There is serious lack of common sense with posters no wonder horses get killed . Yeah ycbm is correct and very valid your horse is at very high risk of getting killed or seriously injured due to livery herd turnout . I wouldn’t blame anyone who doesn’t allow their horses to go out in herds . I think it’s important to note that livery yards herds aren’t established herd a proper established herd is horses being together for years . Livery yards have a very high turnover rate and yard owners don’t have time for for proper interdictions . So yeah it’s very dangerous and i have seen horses get hurt . I keep my horse on herd turnout

I don't think there a lack of common sense but i do wonder if there is a lack of experience, both of ordinary livery yards and of contented horses in single turnout of a decent size with other horses all around.

As many people know I moved Ludo last year to one of the few places available with full livery with herd turnout. He had a very careful introduction and it was a week before he came out of a pen and went in with the others. He was badly kicked at the end of his first week, a smidgeon away from a broken splint bone would be my guess, the swelling took several weeks to disappear.

That herd had a bully in it who ripped three of my rugs in two months and left numerous bites. He belonged to one of the staff, he could not be removed.

The herd settled quite well, then a new mare was carefully introduced into the mares' field. When she was released there was then fighting at the fence line among the geldings as to who got to speak to her over the fence.

My horse was on full livery. The DIYers managed their own fields and new horses were sometimes just turned in to sort things out for themselves.

This was a good yard, well run, by knowledgeable people. But that's the ongoing reality for many people of herd turnout in livery yards.

I don't blame anyone who won't keep a horse in those circumstances. And I don't accept that if people can't provide the nirvana of a big field with a stable herd of matched needs that they shouldn't keep a horse. Because the evidence of my own eyes is that many horses are totally content with that situation even if it isn't what nature programmed them to choose.

I have the same attitude to this as I do to racing. I'd much rather things were different, but I'm absolutely sure that most of these horses would rather be alive the way we keep them than not be alive at all, which is the alternative they would be faced with.
.

 

[humblepie]

Last weekend horse was out in his individual field with mates on three sides. I got him in to go to a show staying overnight. I felt a bit bad as he’d much rather stay in his field I’m sure but due to the generally amenable nature of most horses he let himself be caught loaded and off we went. Next afternoon he was back out. I try to balance him being a horse with my wish to compete and that is another compromise balancing exercise moving away from nature that we face whatever we do with our horses

I generally hack alone. I’m sure he’d like company but most of the others trot a lot and quite fast on the roads which I don’t feel is in his interests so another compromise.

 

[stangs]

So tell me how you would deal with a horse repeatedly biting you over the course of 3 or 4 months? Just curious??

Answering my question with another question, how clever.

It depends on why they’re doing the behaviour. For a learned pain response, I’d probably use R+. For mouthy colts, I’d ask them to move out of my space in as boring a way as possible. In a context where it’s not my horse, I can’t change the reasons behind the behaviour, and I need to be in their space to do what I’m doing (e.g. doing up rug straps), the most I’ve ever done is flick a lead rope (lead rope shouldn’t touch them, but the movement of it should startle them) or snap my fingers (in my admittedly embarrassing Cesar Milan days - again startling but not touching the horse).

“Insanity is smacking a horse 100+ times and expecting it to end the behaviour every time” is that the quote?

If you’ve hit a horse more than once, and it’s not stopped the behaviour, then you really need to reconsider your approach to it. Punishment as strong as that needs to be so quick and meaningful that it should stop the behaviour from ever happening a second time.

 

[Widgeon]

I'm sure quite a few of them, the majority?, are turned away in groups when they aren't in training and racing.

I know a neighbour of mine turned his three jumper racers out together for the summer each year.
.

Several of the big local racing yards do group TO when not in work. They're (rightly, in my view) proud of this.

 

[Upthecreek]

It’s worth remembering that in a natural wild herd it is the horses who decide who is in and who is out. They have total freedom to spend time close to others or be on their own. There is nothing natural about humans putting a load of horses together in a field (no matter how large, they are still confined to that space unlike in the wild) and declaring it a herd. Man made herds do not mimic what horses would do in the wild and neither does the majority of stuff we do with horses.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

The RDA group that I support was offered a pony on loanearly in the summer. She appeared to be perfect for our purpose, excellent on the road, quiet but responsive to ride. She was kept on her own, on her owners land.
When she was put into the pony mare herd, after a period of introduction, she was a nightmare. She would not leave one of the other mares alone, exhibiting coltish behaviour, she was so unsettled that she was unrideable. The mare that she was fixated with was moved into another herd, several fields away but she still didn't settle she spent her time chasing the others around. She just didn't seem to know how to graze quietly alongside other horses. I don't know her complete history but it appeared to me that she was like a child let loose in a sweet shop. Sadly we had to ask the owner to take her back home after a month of no improvement. Individual TO had done herne favours at all.

 

[ycbm]

The RDA group that I support was offered a pony on loanearly in the summer. She appeared to be perfect for our purpose, excellent on the road, quiet but responsive to ride. She was kept on her own, on her owners land.
When she was put into the pony mare herd, after a period of introduction, she was a nightmare. She would not leave one of the other mares alone, exhibiting coltish behaviour, she was so unsettled that she was unrideable. The mare that she was fixated with was moved into another herd, several fields away but she still didn't settle she spent her time chasing the others around. She just didn't seem to know how to graze quietly alongside other horses. I don't know her complete history but it appeared to me that she was like a child let loose in a sweet shop. Sadly we had to ask the owner to take her back home after a month of no improvement. Individual TO had done herne favours at all.

On her own or in individual turnout?

You're assuming the mare's issues were caused by her being kept in individual turnout whereas it may be that she was kept in individual turnout because of how she behaved with the owner's other horses.

Hormonal mare's are often a problem in group turnout.
.

 

[Gallop_Away]

I don't blame anyone who won't keep a horse in those circumstances. And I don't accept that if people can't provide the nirvana of a big field with a stable herd of matched needs that they shouldn't keep a horse. Because the evidence of my own eyes is that many horses are totally content with that situation even if it isn't what nature programmed them to choose.

I have the same attitude to this as I do to racing. I'd much rather things were different, but I'm absolutely sure that most of these horses would rather be alive the way we keep them than not be alive at all, which is the alternative they would be faced with.
.

And what about horses who are not content alone? As has been established throughout this thread, horses are individuals. Just as there are horses who do not suit herd turnout, there are horses, such as mine, who would not suit individual turnout.

I realise this wouldn't be the case as I have 3 horses so unlikely that they would be turned out alone, but I can honestly say my horses, particularly my geldings would be utterly miserable on individual turnout.

If I was to move yards, should I subject my horses to individual turnout, knowing they will be utterly miserable, but it suits my needs and wants to own a horse?

I think people need to remember, owning a horse is a privilege, not a right. Their welfare must always come first. No one has any issues with keeping horses on individual turnout where the horse isn't suitable to be turned out in a group, but where a horse is only subjected to isolation for the convenience of the owner, or worse a horse that doesn't particularly enjoy individual turnout, then that is where many of us draw a line.

As for your comment about lack or experience with group turnout going wrong, I can assure you I have had my share. Most recently one of my boys had a bad kick to the stifle, before that he injured his check ligament (more than likely galloping around the field with the others), I've had rugs ripped etc. I also suffer with anxiety and I understand the feeling of dread when turning a horse out. Believe me when I say my horses mean everything to me. But I set my own feelings aside, I pay the vets bill, I replace the rug, however difficult/irritating it may be, and I put my horses first. I wouldn't subject them to individual turnout knowing how unhappy they would be, no more than I would subject them to a yard that required them to be stabled 22hrs+ a day in winter. I'm not intending to offend anyone but it completely goes against my moral code to do that to my horses. I do not believe my right to own them is greater than their mental wellbeing.

 

[throwawayaccount]

haven't read any of the other posts

at the moment my mare is turned out 24/7 in a herd field, with plenty of shelter. she is the happiest she has ever been

on my previous yard (when i also had my gelding) we had individual turnout fields (1 per horse), so mine both went together. individual fields that are offered nowadays, always seem to be strips of grass with no shelter..which is what i had. they also aren't big enough. none of us were particularly happy. i moved my mare to the place she is at now, and my gelding went to a top yard. though the care was excellent the turnout was limited..however, he was being worked by the staff/competition team daily, ahead of being sold, which kept his brain busy

many moons ago i was on a livery yard with my old ponies, and we each got a proper field on the yard; mine was perfect, with plenty of shelter and grass. i think this is extremely hard to come by now

every horse is different and has different needs/requirements, owners should be tuned in enough to recognise this and action accordingly

 

[bonny]

I have a question for the people who are promoting individual turnout …..at what age would you only keep a horse alone ? Do you think youngsters should be in herds ? If so then what is the difference ?

 

[meleeka]

Mine are on my own land, so each time a new one has arrived, we’ve introduced slowly and carefully. If I had to move to a yard there’s no way I’d be putting them in with a load of unknown horses and hoping they stay out of trouble. A properly introduced, stable herd is how horses live in the wild and I think that an unstable herd is probably worse than individual turnout and is certainly just as unnatural.

 

[fidleyspromise]

I voted my yard is individual turnout however because I have 3, they are out together. If I only had one she'd be herself.

I should add I had only my mare for about 3 years and she ended up in a paddock by herself due to lack of liveries. She was fine and settled. Same yard but was asked to move to a different field and that was fine until the livery beside mine moved her horse to a different field leaving mine alone. Next day, my horse jumped 4 fences to go back to her original field. I wasn't allowed go leave her there so she went to a different field. The calm, quiet Highland pony was metres away from me rearing and galloping in distress.
My final straw was when shevgalloped, jumped the gate and landed on it. I was ready to sell her as I hated seeing her like that.
I found a livery up the road. Still individual but guaranteed to have a mate over the fence.

6 months later I was still shaken up by it and although she was settled again I bought a companion so I could be secure shed never be in that situation again.
She's now 21 and I will separate my horses wirh fencing for their individual needs but I will aways have a minimum Of 2.

 

[Widgeon]

I have a question for the people who are promoting individual turnout …..at what age would you only keep a horse alone ? Do you think youngsters should be in herds ? If so then what is the difference ?

I think this is a really good question - personally I think it may be acceptable to keep ridden horses on individual TO (mine is kept this way), but youngsters and retirees should be out in a stable group whenever possible. That's just my opinion.

 

[Birker2020]

I think this is a really good question - personally I think it may be acceptable to keep ridden horses on individual TO (mine is kept this way), but youngsters and retirees should be out in a stable group whenever possible. That's just my opinion.

My retiree is out in a herd because that's the service they offer. And I had recommendations from friends whose horses were there all ready which is why I chose there. And its a great place but it has not come without serious concerns along the way - it is now on an even keel thanks to the y.o and other circumstances.

I happen to believe youngsters if possible should be with other youngsters as they need to learn from others in the same age range but having never had a youngster myself and never likely to have a youngster, its a moot point.

But as I have said, my particular circumstances lend themselves to individual turnout on the yard I love and that I have been at for nearly two decades. And given my horrific past experience of herd livery on previous yards, and how that turned out I am very much swayed by individual turnout but will caveat that by saying a large paddock (mine is approx. 130m x 30m) with company on either side to touch over the fence (unless during rehab when rearing/playing is not in the best interest of the horse) and adequate food source with hay left out in the winter if necessary and rugged appropriately, again if necessary.