Individual turnout

Is your horse on individual turnout?

  • Yes because I have no choice - yard set up

    Votes: 25 10.6%

  • Yes because I prefer it to be

    Votes: 25 10.6%

  • No it is out with a herd - on a livery yard

    Votes: 87 36.9%

  • No it is out with a herd - I have my own land

    Votes: 104 44.1%
  • Total voters
    236
Birker2020 said:
Oh Wow.. ..
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Why wow? There is extensive research that cites horses kept alone are more likely to get ulcers. However, the screen shot you have shared does not suggest that in anyway, I was using it as an example of how an argument can be flawed by merely sharing a screen shot that is not in any way evidence based scientific research.

If you find the time to research for yourself and come back to me with reputable evidence based research to back up your argument then I will be more than happy to read it and possibly review my opinion. Perhaps it might also be a good idea to research stomach ulcers in individually kept horses too.
 
My 1 on full livery is on individual, it’s how the yard is set up but I wouldn’t want him out in company I didn’t know. They can touch noses through the stables and over the fence. He’ll be with the ponies once he’s home.
1 is with a Shetland friend
The cob is with a pony herd
 
JBM said:
I was always told an acer and a half for the first horse and an extra acer for every horse after that
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I learned in the1970's two acres for the first horse and an acre per horse after that but that was total area for them to be able to live out 24/7 including resting parts of it as worm control, using it for schooling in summer, and for land management. If it wasn't for schooling in summer that amount of grass allowed you to take a hay crop for winter.
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ycbm said:
I learned in the1970's two acres for the first horse and an acre per horse after that but that was total area for them to be able to live out 24/7 including resting parts of it as worm control, using it for schooling in summer, and for land management.
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That's my understanding too. Previous owner of my land did 7 acres = 7 horses but that doesn't give the land time to rest nor allows for land which gets very wet in winter.

Best livery yard I was on liveries were given about 1 acre per horse. If people chose to share then fences could come down or they could have summer / winter paddocks. I've been on plenty where you were expected to share and intros involved chucking the new horse in and praying. I'm pretty horrified by how many serious accidents people have come across in herd turnout given how few I've seen. The worst I've come across were all self inflicted and nothing to do with being in a herd.
 
ycbm said:
I learned in the1970's two acres for the first horse and an acre per horse after that but that was total area for them to be able to live out 24/7 including resting parts of it as worm control, using it for schooling in summer, and for land management. If it wasn't for schooling in summer that amount of grass allowed you to take a hay crop for winter.
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But that didn't work for just a couple of horses, you needed more horses' acres if you wanted a hay crop. It also depends on the soil, of course.
 
but that didn't work for just a couple of horses, you needed more horses' acres if you wanted a hay crop. It also depends on the soil, of course.
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Depends entirely on the horses and the land and the weather. I had a friend with a horse and a big pony who took hay off half her 3 acres before grazing it for the summer and letting the trashed winter side recover. Down south though.
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SEL said:
That's my understanding too. Previous owner of my land did 7 acres = 7 horses but that doesn't give the land time to rest nor allows for land which gets very wet in winter.

Best livery yard I was on liveries were given about 1 acre per horse. If people chose to share then fences could come down or they could have summer / winter paddocks. I've been on plenty where you were expected to share and intros involved chucking the new horse in and praying. I'm pretty horrified by how many serious accidents people have come across in herd turnout given how few I've seen. The worst I've come across were all self inflicted and nothing to do with being in a herd.
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My vet had one of his own horses break the other's leg in a decent size field with the two of them settled in it.

I had an injury that was initially feared to be a break in one of mine about 10 years back and I've been musing on that. While everything was in my control I was quite happy to allow my horses to take the group turnout risk. With horses owned and their control managed by other people, I'm not.

It really is a very different proposition to be in a present day livery stables from having your own place.
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palo1 said:
Are you aware of the phenomenon of social buffering? Have you read this paper that explains a range of things well: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37450226/

It clarifies: 'For horses, social isolation is a particularly strong stressor that
negatively affects their behavioural and physiological reactivity (Kay and Hall 2009; Żelazna and
Jezierski 2018)'

Also: Attenuation of fear through social transmission in groups of same and differently aged horses
Authors: Maria Vilain Rørvang a b, Janne Winther Christensen - From Applied Animal Behaviour Science Journal Volume 209, 2018. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0168159118301059

I expect you may want something more specific but as with the evidence around the benefits of removing shoes from horses that were lame, there may not be money available for such specific work. I am not sure why it would be that contentious to assert that a naturally herd dependent animal has its welfare needs more likely to be met in that setting but there you go...There is research and evidence if you look.
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So, coming back to this research. What the first one showed was that horses which were independent and less inclined to join a herd cared less about an upsetting noise.

Socially dependent horses showed more pronounced avoidance behaviour and needed much more time to resume feeding during the control trial.
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If that can be replicated with a decent sample size instead of just 20 horses of the same breeding, then what it would actually suggest is that we owe it to horses to teach them to be happy with only a loose social connection to a herd.


The second firstly used 2 year olds and nobody is advocating 2 year olds on single turnout, that would indeed be abusive, in my view. It later refers to older horses as well.

The conclusion drawn is that the presence of a horse which has become accustomed to a threatening noise or movement can moderate the fear reaction in horses nearby which have not become accustomed to it. There is nothing in the single turnout that most people have been describing on this thread to prevent that attenuation from happening over a fence, and I see it in practice a lot.
 
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ycbm said:
The second firstly used 2 year olds and nobody is advocating 2 year olds on single turnout, that would indeed be abusive, in my view
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Purely out of interest and curiosity ycbm, and not to generate argument for argument's sake, but why do you consider 2 year olds on individual turnout abusive but not so in older horses?
 
Mrs. Jingle said:
Purely out of interest and curiosity ycbm, and not to generate argument for argument's sake, but why do you consider 2 year olds on individual turnout abusive but not so in older horses?
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Because younger animals play with each other a lot more than older animals do. True across most mammal species, I think.

(And please everyone, don't now quote the one ultra playful older horse you know of. If you've got an ultra playful older horse then you need to give it something to play with. )
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ycbm said:
This recent study showed a marked reduction in glandular ulcers in Icelandic ponies taken off herd grazing and brought into full time individual stabling for 8 weeks for training.


www.spillers-feeds.com

#SPILLERSScience: turnout does not always reduce the risk of gastric ulcers | SPILLERS Feeds

While the risk of gastric ulcers generally seems lower in...
www.spillers-feeds.com www.spillers-feeds.com
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Very interesting but it does appear to be more based on the forage available than the actual fact they were in a herd environment? As the article it self says they are looking into the reasons for the results in more depth, so I think at this stage the evidence based on that is not conclusive, but very interesting all the same and I would be very interested to read their update.

Their last paragraph (below) actually says exactly what I believe, no one method of keeping equines is guaranteed in any way to reduce risk of ulcers, injury or any other mishap. We can only make the decisions to mitigate risk for our own horses based on our own experience and which particular horse we have in front of us. Just because I happen to prefer mine out in a herd does not guarantee they will never get stomach ulcers, nor would keeping one in solitude mean they would never get injured. So many other factors come into play don't they? 🤷‍♀️

"If otherwise appropriate, increasing the amount of time your horse is turned out may still help to reduce the risk of gastric ulcers, as well as offering other health and welfare benefits. However, the results of this study highlight the importance of regular forage provision, as well as being a good reminder that 24/7 turnout does not automatically mean reduced risk."
 
ycbm said:
This recent study showed a marked reduction in glandular ulcers in Icelandic ponies taken off herd grazing and brought into full time individual stabling for 8 weeks for training.


www.spillers-feeds.com

#SPILLERSScience: turnout does not always reduce the risk of gastric ulcers | SPILLERS Feeds

While the risk of gastric ulcers generally seems lower in...
www.spillers-feeds.com www.spillers-feeds.com
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This seems to be the sort of junk science you frequently reject when cited by others. A bunch of horses that have lived out all their lives have their circumstances altered enormously overnight and yet the study sees fit to scope them 'within two weeks of being removed from pasture'. Not the day after they were removed? Given how quickly ulcers can form how are we to know whether they were a response to the stress of the change, and resolved as the horses became accustomed to their new circumstances? We have no idea. Then they proceeded to feed them different diets before rescoping? Hmm.
 
Burnttoast said:
This seems to be the sort of junk science you frequently reject when cited by others. A bunch of horses that have lived out all their lives have their circumstances altered enormously overnight and yet the study sees fit to scope them 'within two weeks of being removed from pasture'. Not the day after they were removed? Given how quickly ulcers can form how are we to know whether they were a response to the stress of the change, and resolved as the horses became accustomed to their new circumstances? We have no idea. Then they proceeded to feed them different diets before rescoping? Hmm.
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Nevertheless what it showed was reduced ulcers from sustained living in individual stables.

This recent publication looks very interesting as a review of current research. The strongest message i get from it is we don't know enough, and certainly not enough to condemn individual turnout as an ulcer risk.

Equine Gastric Ulcer Syndrome: An Update on Current Knowledge - PMC

The term Equine Gastric Ulcer Syndrome has been used to describe mucosal diseases of the equine stomach since the 1990s. More recently, specific nomenclature has been used to differentiate diseases affecting the squamous and glandular mucosa, as the ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
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ycbm said:
Because younger animals play with each other a lot more than older animals do. True across most mammal species, I think.

(And please everyone, don't now quote the one ultra playful older horse you know of. If you've got an ultra playful older horse then you need to give it something to play with. )
.
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Well I am so sorry to go against your diktat, but I have to now quote that many, many times over the years I have witnessed several of my geriatric field mates having a grand old hooley together and often leaving their young field companions looking lost and bewildered at such a turn of events. 😅 Incidentally I have never kept youngsters alone, they have always been in with at least one older mare as soon as they are weaned. It has always worked very well to put manners on them and learn to live like a horse, with other horses.
 
ycbm said:
😊But that didn't work for just a couple of horses, you needed more horses' acres if you wanted a hay crop. It also depends on the soil, of course.

Depends entirely on the horses and the land and the weather. I had a friend with a horse and a big pony who took hay off half her 3 acres before grazing it for the summer and letting the trashed winter side recover. Down south though.
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That's what I said!😊
 
ycbm said:
Nevertheless what it showed was reduced ulcers from sustained living in individual stables.

This recent publication looks very interesting as a review of current research. The strongest message i get from it is we don't know enough, and certainly not enough to condemn individual turnout as an ulcer risk.

Equine Gastric Ulcer Syndrome: An Update on Current Knowledge - PMC

The term Equine Gastric Ulcer Syndrome has been used to describe mucosal diseases of the equine stomach since the 1990s. More recently, specific nomenclature has been used to differentiate diseases affecting the squamous and glandular mucosa, as the ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
.
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No, it shows reduced ulcers _while_ living in stables. Not as a result of it.
 
Burnttoast said:
No, it shows reduced ulcers _while_ living in stables. Not as a result of it.
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Please forgive my tautological inexactitude. I meant it in the sense of following.

It shows horses kept for a sustained period in single stables recovering from ulcers, which does not support in any way the claim that individual turnout surrounded by others will cause them.

There is just no decent research on any of this.
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ycbm said:
There is just no decent research on any of this.
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It would be so great if there were but goodness knows how it'll ever be accomplished. I've been backing away from horse keeping with my hands in the air for a few years now at least partly because of the uncertainty surrounding most of the things we do with them and how we keep them. But my gut feeling (I know...) is still that a majority of horses would like a buddy or several, the more they are kept singly by choice the less they remember how to horse when given the chance, and too many people are happy to keep horses in non-horse-centric situations, will uproot their horse at a moment's notice and (referring to a point you made above) aren't skilled or interested enough to actually teach their horses to be independent ("he'll just have to get used to it").
 
JBM said:
If it’s possible I would suggest reseeding with an equine appropriate seed mix as cow grass is such a pain to have horses on! So sugary
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I'm on a livery yard so not possible. I've been managing it ok for the last few years but if it were my own place I'd consider it.
 
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JBM said:
You want to rain in on the level of sarcasm there?
All grass needs to be reseeded at some point livery yard or not.
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No it doesn't.

I was in my last place 31 years, I never touched it and it doesn't need reseeding now and I don't see why it ever will. None of my friends (one in her place 50 years now) has ever reseeded horse grazing. None of the grazing at the livery I'm at now or at the two livery yards I've visited regularly has been reseeded in 3 decades either.
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Pearlsasinger said:
So if you are strip grazing how do these horses manage to touch each other over the fences and run about with each other? Are all the strips in line with the others?
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Yes of course they are, I've taken many photos which are on the forum of Lari and his friends and play fighting and have mentioned on here at least three times how the staff found him beating the horse in the next paddock over the face with his fly mask! We have 8 paddocks that run off a strip with paddocks behind our paddocks.
 
ycbm said:
Please forgive my tautological inexactitude. I meant it in the sense of following.

It shows horses kept for a sustained period in single stables recovering from ulcers, which does not support in any way the claim that individual turnout surrounded by others will cause them.

There is just no decent research on any of this.
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Although the horses were out in a herd before being brought into the stables we do not know the conditions the horses were living in. Was there enough grazing that the horses always had food in their stomachs? It's a pity they weren't scoped sooner after they came in.
 
Birker2020 said:
Yes of course they are, I've taken many photos which are on the forum of Lari and his friends and play fighting and have mentioned on here at least three times how the staff found him beating the horse in the next paddock over the face with his fly mask! We have 8 paddocks that run off a strip with paddocks behind our paddocks.
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Not much galloping along a strip.of grazing! And not much catering for the individual if all the strips are the same.
 
ycbm said:
No it doesn't.

I was in my last place 31 years, I never touched it and it doesn't need reseeding now and I don't see why it ever will. None of my friends (one in her place 50 years now) has ever reseeded horse grazing. None of the grazing at the livery I'm at now or at the two livery yards I've visited regularly has been reseeded in 3 decades either.
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I mean that’s great but grass should be reseeded to get the best from your field
 
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