Insurers get tough on 'barefoot' horse claims

[Marydoll]

Hmm so it looks as though IF I want to get a very expensive NFU policy I'm goin to have to have a farrier who sometimes turns up(or doesn't),brngs his dog to bounce around dashing under my mules feet,rushes to do the job as quick as he can to whiz on to the next appointment he's late for,doesn't tell me a thing about what he's doing or move the mule around,digs it in the ribs with a file and doesn't even know that mules and donkeys are trimmed differantly to horses...I'll stick to what I've got thank you

Just sounds like youve had a s hit farrier

 

[cptrayes]

interestingly NFU insure barefoot trimmers.

*(&£&^%&*^&%* hilarious

 

[JFTDWS]

Thats going to upset a few people on here! May aswell put away my angle grinder then. .

I don't like this. What's next, they won't pay out for laminitis because you fed it?

I could get on board with that, if the horse has been on a wildly inappropriate diet and the owner is oblivious to good management

I don't care, I don't insure for vets fees anyway and I'd always seek out a good farrier, I wouldn't consider a barefoot trimmer.

 

[Goldenstar]

I doubt the WCF would ever incorporate the trimmers, as my understanding is that the trimmers use a different method to the farriers which is why they are used instead of the farriers. If they used the same method then the WCF might consider registering but then that would defeat the object as there would no reason to use a trimmer if they were using the same method as the farrier!

There honestly seems to be very little difference as far I see it the trimmer I use is more careful checks the lateral balance witha great deal of care ( compared with my farrier ) and does not trim the sole or the frog my farrier loves cutting away the frog.
The trimmer is very interested in the management of the horse the work he is doing etc etc the farrier has never asked a question about the horse.

 

[Holly Hocks]

I guess I'll be cancelling my policy with the NFU then.

I won't go back to using the farrier who made my horse stand in pools of blood.

I'll stick with my UKNHCP trimmer who has been nurturing for my horses' hooves and doing a great job for many years now.

I won't be bullied by an insurance company.

End of.

Well said. Everyone knows that NFU stands for "No ******* Use". Shoes made my horse lame - barefoot and trimmer made her sound. I will NOT have any insurance company tell me who I use to treat my horse - my horse, my decision - End of.

 

[Tinypony]

"I wouldn't use a barefoot trimmer..."
"I wouldn't use a farrier..."
Can't we get past this? Surely we all use who we think best for our horses, rather than discounting a whole set of individuals just because of the label they have attached? Similarly, insurance policies should allow owners some freedom of choice if it can be justified as being in the best interests of the horse. Of course they shouldn't pay up if someone who hasn't been properly trained does damage, but if the trimmer or farrier (and there are unqualified "farriers" working out there...) has some relevant accreditation that should be enough.
Does everyone check that the farrier who does their mates horses and can fit theirs on his/her round as well is a member of the Worshipful Whatever? A few years back a mate of mine got a terrible shock when it transpired that her yard farrier, who had been practising for years, had never actually finished his qualification.

 

[Nic]

Hmm so it looks as though IF I want to get a very expensive NFU policy I'm goin to have to have a farrier who sometimes turns up(or doesn't),brngs his dog to bounce around dashing under my mules feet,rushes to do the job as quick as he can to whiz on to the next appointment he's late for,doesn't tell me a thing about what he's doing or move the mule around,digs it in the ribs with a file and doesn't even know that mules and donkeys are trimmed differantly to horses...I'll stick to what I've got thank you

Or get another farrier...

 

[LadyRascasse]

hear hear about time too! Farrier train for 4 years before they can do what they do barefoot trimmer one day isn't it?

 

[SO1]

But surely there has to be enough of difference between trimmers and farriers for those who use trimmers to prefer them over farriers and for NFU to make an issue of it in their insurance policies? Or is it that those who use trimmers have just had back luck and not been able to find a suitable farrier?

Perhaps the main governing body for qualified trimmers should be lobbying insurance companies and vets to persuade them to recognise their methods before other insurance companies follow NFU's lead (they may not all say it in their small print but does not mean that they won't use it as a reason not to pay out if they feel they can do).

QUOTE=Goldenstar;10588611]There honestly seems to be very little difference as far I see it the trimmer I use is more careful checks the lateral balance witha great deal of care ( compared with my farrier ) and does not trim the sole or the frog my farrier loves cutting away the frog.
The trimmer is very interested in the management of the horse the work he is doing etc etc the farrier has never asked a question about the horse.[/QUOTE]

 

[Goldenstar]

hear hear about time too! Farrier train for 4 years before they can do what they do barefoot trimmer one day isn't it?

I am not an expert on this but I do not think most trimming courses are one day the prob is its difficult to know exactly what qualification your trimmer has unless you do some research this needs sorting and the trimming organisations need to get it done .
However training for four years is no guarantee that your horse won't be crippled and end his working life due to bad shoeing .
I should add all but one of my horses are shod and the shoeless one was not taken shoeless due to lameness .
I am so glad I don't insure so my desisions are my own.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

hear hear about time too! Farrier train for 4 years before they can do what they do barefoot trimmer one day isn't it?

why don't you go look it up instead of guessing?

 

[MotherOfChickens]

"I wouldn't use a barefoot trimmer..."
"I wouldn't use a farrier..."
Can't we get past this? Surely we all use who we think best for our horses, rather than discounting a whole set of individuals just because of the label they have attached? Similarly, insurance policies should allow owners some freedom of choice if it can be justified as being in the best interests of the horse. Of course they shouldn't pay up if someone who hasn't been properly trained does damage, but if the trimmer or farrier (and there are unqualified "farriers" working out there...) has some relevant accreditation that should be enough.
Does everyone check that the farrier who does their mates horses and can fit theirs on his/her round as well is a member of the Worshipful Whatever? A few years back a mate of mine got a terrible shock when it transpired that her yard farrier, who had been practising for years, had never actually finished his qualification.

good post!

as for finding another farrier, if you live out in the sticks it's not always that easy.

 

[Oberon]

hear hear about time too! Farrier train for 4 years before they can do what they do barefoot trimmer one day isn't it?

Yes they only do one day's training...7 hours to be exact - with a 30 minute lunch break.

And half of that day is learning about voodoo.

 

[abitodd]

ETA: I also thought that qualified trimmers would be OK, I see now that they are not. IMHO trimmers now need to be pushing to have a properly recognised and policed organisation,which will stop all the dodgy trimmers in their tracks OR they need to apply to be recognised by the WCF

Absolutely. And the leading oganisations are trying to do this,but the wheels of 'government' grind very slow!

Here's the link to the NOS standards for barefoot care which were drawn up by LANTRA with consultation with trimming organizations, farriers and vets.
http://www.lantra.co.uk/getattachme...4d/Equine-Barefoot-Care-NOS-(April-2010).aspx

I don't know what the latest WFC position is but ?they (some farriers) wanted their training as the benchmark in 2009 which seems a bit pointless as much of it is to do with shoeing and making shoes. Hopefully sense will prevail and this can be sorted. Trimmers and bare hoof care isn't going away whether you like it or hate it.

My farrier was at many of these LANTRA meetings and apparently many minutes were wasted discussing whether it should be 'equines' or 'equids' or whether a bullet point was needed,or should that be a full stop or comma.
As mentioned above,red tape must be arranged and plaited before decisions can be made!
However minimum standards were decided. A governing body is yet to be established.

OPEN LETTER TO THE WORSHIPFUL COMPANY OF FARRIERS


Dear WCF

What we horseowners want is this:

Your trainees to be taught in depth about hoof mechanics and to dissect hooves of both shod and unshod horses during their training and to note the internal differences.

Your trainees to be taught in depth about how nutrition and metabolic issues (Cushings, IR, EMS, EPSM) affect a horse's feet.

Your trainees to spend a period with a Master who has a number of unshod eventers/hunters/long distance horses on his books.

You to have two strands of apprentices - those who are accredited to shoe and trim and those who are only accredited to trim.

PLEASE pull your fingers out and get on with it!

The Horse Owning Public.

You might need to re write this. Perhaps we should have a meeting and decide on the exact wording. i.e. you should perhaps say equines rather than horses to cover donkeys,mules etc. I also think bullet points are needed. Do you agree? If you do I might sign it!

Hello,

When everyone; farrier asociation and trim schools sat round the table they updated the minimum LANTRA NOS for farriers and created the trimming ones. They*are the same apart from the metal/shoe training. Involved was*representatives from, FRC (Farriers Registration Council), WCF (Worshipful Company of Farriers), FTA (Farriery Training Agency) and NEWC (National Equine Welfare Council) Trimming organisations: IAEP (Institute of Applied Equine Podiatry) EPAUK (Equine Podiatry Association UK), AANHCP (American Association of Natural Hoofcare Practitioners) ESA (Equine Sciences Academy) and the UKNHCP (UK Natural Hoofcare Practitioners)

These are both now signed off and as previously mentioned on LANTRA's website. I'll ask LANTRA if they can do more awareness raising of this.

Many of the trim schools include a lot of detailed training around feed, nutrition and other 'whole horse' learning well above what's included as a minimum. From my learning so far with the Equine Sciences Academy I would say its pitched at least degree level. From what I know of the standards and curriculum I imagine that's probably the case of the UKNHCP as well and I don't know about the other schools but I'm sure others on here could update. *I can't remember what the minimum standards ask for off hand, NVQ 3 maybe?

Another question; there has been mention of apprentices going out alone on behalf of their farrier. If insurances could identify this would they refuse to pay out as not done by a registered farrier?*

I think I'll contact LANTRA and see if they can have any influence or inform insurances of what trimming organisations pass the minimum training requirements and whether they can pass this info on to main insurance companies saying if you can confirm qualification from one of the above schools then the standard has been met. Those not involved at the time could submit their schemes of work/curriculum to see whether they are at a suitable level.

Oh I don't know, prob rambled on.

Happy Easter everyone

As above. The wheels are in motion. The new farrier syllabus may even include elements from trimming schools. The problem they are having is finding farriers willing to teach the subject. This country has many farriers specializing in barefoot,but they are all too busy trimming to find time to teach!

The UKNHCP has been recognised as a provider of CPD for farriers.

hear hear about time too! Farrier train for 4 years before they can do what they do barefoot trimmer one day isn't it?

I could print up some business cards and set myself up as a barefoot trimmer tomorrow. I know LOADS,honestly!
The leading barefoot oganisations have stringent training which is spread over a year or more offers excellent CPD opportunities. Therefore there are many excellent barefoot practitioners.
I do agree though. Every horse is different and feet grow and reflect the work of the trimmer. It can take months or even years for mistakes in the trim(or shoeing) to manifest as a problem. In a four year apprenticeship,farriers get to see the effects of their work and they get to see hundreds of horses. I am afraid a 2 week KC La Pierre course cannot compete with this.
IMO it would be great if the WCF included natural hooves in its training and had modules which those wanting to exclusively practice barefoot could do,under the supervision of a master.

 

[hackedoff]

Personally think its another way of insurers looking to wiggle out of honouring claims. Iv just reverted from barefoot to shod as my old boy just likes his shoes. My excellant farrier was genuinly very happy with how barefoot trimmer had done horsies tootsies for the last year.

 

[smellsofhorse]

Makes sense, I agree with it.

 

[AlDestoor]

I agree with this tbf. I wouldnt let anyone near my horses feet, back, or teeth without the approrpriate qualifications.

A friend on my stables uses a Natual Barefoot Trimmer as shes into natural horsemanship and he costs more than my Blacksmith for a trim! Its only around £20 for a trim so might as well just invest in someone who knows the horses foot and has the qalification to prove it.

And i would never let anyone with an angle grinder near my horses feet. Horses are very unpredictable and who knows what might happen.

 

[Bedlam]

I'm a vet.

No - honestly, I am!

Let me treat your horse and then I'll give you a bill and you can pay me and then claim off your insurance.

What do you mean they want me to be qualified and a member of some weird professional group that monitors standards of practice?

How odd that they won't pay out just because I say that I'm capable of doing what I'm doing.

How strange that they want me to be a member of some registered, governed body with standards and guidelines.

I just don't get it.

 

[AlDestoor]

I'm a vet.

No - honestly, I am!

Let me treat your horse and then I'll give you a bill and you can pay me and then claim off your insurance.

What do you mean they want me to be qualified and a member of some weird professional group that monitors standards of practice?

How odd that they won't pay out just because I say that I'm capable of doing what I'm doing.

How strange that they want me to be a member of some registered, governed body with standards and guidelines.

I just don't get it.

Love it!

Its a no brainer for me, if you're daft enough to let someone unqualified near your horse then you should pay for it when it goes wrong!

Qualified people only if you honestly care about your horses. You wouldnt take your loved ones to an unqualified doctor/dentist/ surgeon etc. Same thing to me.

 

[ester]

that isn't really the issue though here, the fact is that insurance companies (I don't specifically know about nfu) will pay out for a barefoot rehab, with none farriers/WCF registrees, however they are stating that if a horse is trimmed as a matter of course by one of these such people regularly they will not be covered which is somewhat oxymoronish!

From what I have heard I'm not sure that the WCF is that great on upholding standards of practice either.

eta Lucy-Jay I think you need to define 'unqualified' in this context, my shod horse has gone wrong, in part due to shoeing ...

 

[AlDestoor]

that isn't really the issue though here, the fact is that insurance companies (I don't specifically know about nfu) will pay out for a barefoot rehab, with none farriers/WCF registrees, however they are stating that if a horse is trimmed as a matter of course by one of these such people regularly they will not be covered which is somewhat oxymoronish!

From what I have heard I'm not sure that the WCF is that great on upholding standards of practice either.

eta Lucy-Jay I think you need to define 'unqualified' in this context, my shod horse has gone wrong, in part due to shoeing ...

Same, Had an ex racehorse that was bound by a newly qualified farrier. I changed farrier. But i would never go to someone who had had a days training on the horses foot compared to someone who has had 4 years. If you needed surgery, would you go to someone who only did say 1 years training and said they could do it, or would you go to someone who did the full 7 years and knows the ins and outs of whatever it was that needed doing.

I understand this is about insurance policies and it truly is each to there own on this one. But me personally, believe that no one should be able to claim for this as they have taken the choice to have someone unqualified trim there horses. My own policy covers complementary therapies which does infact include, Barefoot Trimmers. My point is, i would still seek out a registered farrier to do the work that was needed i.e. special shoeing etc. There are qualified Blacksmiths that would do this. Its just common sense to me.

 

[ester]

I do wonder where this 'days' training comes from...

honestly I was a pretty big sceptic a couple of years ago, I suspect I could find some posts by me saying pretty much what you are , it would have been common sense to me too

I have researched the training required to be a member of each of the bf organisations and selected someone on that basis and recommendation. Horse has been remedially shod by a qual farrier.. and the results are there to see, hoof balance is externally much better, horse is still not properly sound and there is little more to be done medically (has had joint injections) or shoeing wise long term. Hence getting to the point that maybe an alternative approach is required if the horse is not to retire.

It's not the trimming I'm too worried about tbh, I could tell my farrier to leave the frogs alone it is more some help and advice on feeding and management which I felt my farrier (although not completely unknowledgable on unshod) could not give me (or anymore than I know myself), at least in the first instance of starting off... I want my hand holding a bit more! and don't think I am being completely foolish in allowing someone else to touch my horse's feet (not that anyone has yet)

 

[Oberon]

The vitriol comes from people who have either never used a trimmer, used a bad one...or from someone who is watching your horse be trimmed by a trimmer and still not be sound....so the trimmer, "must be doing something wrong"

It's so sad that such ignorance exists still.

There's room in this world for everyone.

 

[AlDestoor]

In that case, I would be trimming my horses feet.

I dont go by what other people recomend to me on the basis that i have done this before, and ended up with my horse being bound.

I go by personal experience. My livery friend has a barefoot trimmer who does infact give her some good advice, on the other hand he gives her some absolute nonsense.

I'm not against barefoot trimmers. I just think that if you look at it from an insurers point of view, these people dont really have any decent qualifications to be trimming horses feet and when that is the case, i feel they have every right to refuse payment.

To me, it is just easier to use a qualified Blacksmith, that way you have no issues with your insurance. Its also probably cheaper to use a farrier, my friends Barefoot Trimmer costs £35 to trim her horse, My Blacksmith costs £20...

 

[abitodd]

A leading equine insurer has warned that it may reject claims involving 'horses' feet when the animal has had hoof care from anyone other than a registered farrier.
"We fully support owners who choose not to have their animals shod, which is why our policy wording refers to 'regular foot care' rather than 'regular showing" Nicola Whittaker of NFU Mutual told ETN.
"If a claim related specifically to the horse's foot, for example, in the case of Lameness due to foot imbalance, then NFU Mitual would want to reassure itself that the person who had carried out any shoeing or trimming of the horse's feet was suitably trained and qualified to provide this care and had not inadvertently contributed to the problem"

From Equestrian Trade News April 2012

Does it state anywhere about the timescale between visits,I wonder?
What if the horse is only seen by the farrier every 4 or 6 months?

 

[Bedlam]

The vitriol comes from people who have either never used a trimmer, used a bad one...or from someone who is watching your horse be trimmed by a trimmer and still not be sound....so the trimmer, "must be doing something wrong"

It's so sad that such ignorance exists still.

There's room in this world for everyone.

No vitriol from me - just a complete understanding of where insurance companies are coming from.

They absolutely cannot pay out for treatment from any old guy. They HAVE to restrict payouts to treatment received from members of regulated bodies.

I have just claimed around 5K from my insurers for fees relating to a SI injury to my eventer. They have paid without question my vets fees and ACPAT registered physios fees.

I've also had Gavin Scofield see my horse. God alone knows what he does, but it bloomin' works. Insurance won't pay for him though - he's not registered with anything or anybody as far as I know. And that's fine - cos I don't understand it either! LOL! As far as the insurance company stands he's just any old guy. How could they possibly judge any other way?

 

[AlDestoor]

No vitriol from me - just a complete understanding of where insurance companies are coming from.

They absolutely cannot pay out for treatment from any old guy. They HAVE to restrict payouts to treatment received from members of regulated bodies.

I have just claimed around 5K from my insurers for fees relating to a SI injury to my eventer. They have paid without question my vets fees and ACPAT registered physios fees.

I've also had Gavin Scofield see my horse. God alone knows what he does, but it bloomin' works. Insurance won't pay for him though - he's not registered with anything or anybody as far as I know. And that's fine - cos I don't understand it either! LOL! As far as the insurance company stands he's just any old guy. How could they possibly judge any other way?

agreed!

 

[criso]

Does it state anywhere about the timescale between visits,I wonder?
What if the horse is only seen by the farrier every 4 or 6 months?

The word used is 'regular' which is not the same as often ;-)

 

[ester]

It isn't about who they will pay to treat in the event of a claim though.

I would love to know if nfu have paid for any to go to rockley..

 

[Flame_]

The vitriol comes from people who have either never used a trimmer, used a bad one...or from someone who is watching your horse be trimmed by a trimmer and still not be sound....so the trimmer, "must be doing something wrong"

It's so sad that such ignorance exists still.

There's room in this world for everyone.

I've come across two on my livery yard. One lamed a perfectly sound endurance horse, the other one trims the feet so lob-sided you'd think he has to be drunk! A lot of the principles are impressive but IMO in practice there is drastic need for standardization (is that a word? ). I'm not anti barefoot, but I am anti miserable horses.

i still think that while it is perfectly legal for anyone to learn to trim hooves and provide the service, not using farriers is not a valid reason to void insurance.