ester
Not slacking multitasking
In which case direct it to that person. I genuinely don't understand why I manage to join in interesting discussions with you/others on your facebook page about your posts but something happens when it's on here.
Interesting article about temperature regulation in horses. Worth a read
- Thread starter JulesRules
- Start date
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
Please continue to do so.And this is the reason I generally avoid the H&H Forum
Rosiejazzandpia
Well-Known Member
I don't think this is patronising, this applies to 60% of the population at least, I fear for the future 😂
ycbm
Overwhelmed
The wall isn't 5 degrees all on its own, is it David? It's 5 degrees because the air is so cold around it. And the vast majority of the heat lost from a horse is lost because of the cold air on the horses large area of skin and in it's lungs.If the horse stands still, the air around the horse, especially where it's breathing, will warm up noticeably. The walls won't.
MotherOfChickens
MotherDucker
I live in an old stone cottage-thick stone walls and my stables are built of the same. my cottage is always blinking freezing and my stables always cool-except for the heat wave we had (much shorter in Scotland than elsewhere lol) when the cottage and stables eventually became like storage heaters and were pretty uncomfortable for several days. still, back to freezing now so alls right with the world. My stables actually can become almost fridge like and be several degrees colder than outside. I don't really care about the physics of it, I keep natives so I don't have to feed or rug 
blitznbobs
Well-Known Member
Wow ... just wow... over complicating much? If your horse is cold - put a rug on it, if it’s not don’t... if your worried about the temperature of your stable buy a thermometer... you can get minimum and maximum ones ... I hate it when academia gets in the way of common sense ...
And yes I say that from the prospective of someone with an alphabet after my name ...
And yes I say that from the prospective of someone with an alphabet after my name ...
SEL
Well-Known Member
Ok so now i understand DM's Facebook comment tonight! Had not been following this thread as PSSM horse is religously over-rugged to try and avoid a tie-up.
Hack4fun
Well-Known Member
Welcome to democracy and alternative facts Rosiejazzandpia.
Ambers Echo
Still wittering on
Ah but do you measure the air temperature or the temperature of the walls...?
Fiona
Well-Known Member
blitznbobs
Well-Known Member
Fiona
Well-Known Member
Unless you live in a certain frost pocket in Co Down lol....
We have had three minus two nights here already 😣😣😣
Fiona
Rowreach
Adjusting my sails
Rowreach
Adjusting my sails
And this is the reason I generally avoid the H&H Forum
Having just read the comments on your Facebook post, I'd say it's pretty much the same over there.
only_me
Well-Known Member
My car windscreen was frozen twice last week and we had frost on the field - it was cold to the point where I was seriously considering putting a 50g rug on horse as he hasn’t grown a winter coat yet so isn’t ready for such cold temps yet. I decided against it though as he is quite fat so can use a bit of it to keep him warm lol
Hack4fun
Well-Known Member
"Put a horse in a room where the air is at 15 degrees and keep the air at that temperature in a radius of, say, two feet around the horse while you cool the walls to zero. How much heat will the horse radiate? Exactly as much heat as is necessary to stabilize the horse's core temperature to the 38 degrees it needs to be."
This is not correct. The horse generates heat and loses it through conduction, radiation, convection and evaporation and manages its metabolism so that it maintains a constant 38C (although its peripheral areas can be at a different temperature)
"Now heat the walls to 50 degrees while keeping that two foot radius of air around the horse at fifteen degrees. How much heat will the horse radiate? Exactly the same amount as when the walls were at zero, because the ambient temperature round the horse has not changed."
If we are talking about radiation alone, then the important thing to understand is that all surfaces emit and absorb radiation. The 50C surface will be emitting a lot more than the 0C surface, and the horse will be absorbing that so the temperature of the horse's coat will rise. This has nothing to do with air temperature. It is why an electric fire feels warm even when the air temperature is cold, it is why grills and toasters work and things cook differently from baking in the oven.
"Walls do not have an attractive force for heat. They cannot "draw heat from horses" as you suggest. The only heat available to reach the walls from the horse does not change depending on the temperature of the walls. It changes depending on the temperature of the air around the horse."
I hope I have explained that. The term "draw" is used because the net effect of radiation is that heat transfers from the warm horse to the cold wall.
"Now consider the horse standing in a nice draught free stable, with its body heating up the air around it. The horse in the wooden stable is warming the air, and some of that warmth is escaping into the cold night air through the walls and roof of the stable. The identical horse next door is in a stone stable. That stone warmed up in the winter sunshine during the day, and is now releasing some heat into the stable. In addition, less of the heat being created by the horse is going to escape into the cold night air because a big thick bit of stone, concrete block, or brick is a better insulator than a thin piece of wood."
I think this has already been explained. All this assumes thermal equilibrium. If there is not thermal equilibrium then things are different. A great thick stone wall has lots of thermal inertia and so will take a lot longer to warm up than a wooden wall - this has nothing to do with insulation. It contributes to the reason why stone houses feel cooler on hot summer days. (We could talk about the warm horse creating a convection current so the air is warmer at the top of this hypothetical draught-free stable than at the bottom, and the significant of heat loss through the roof. We could also ask whether the cold walls generate condensation and what happens to the associated latent heat, but that is a whole new thread we had best avoid.)
By the way, I do have am a physicist, have a PhD and keep animals. I do know my science, and so does Dr M.
This is not correct. The horse generates heat and loses it through conduction, radiation, convection and evaporation and manages its metabolism so that it maintains a constant 38C (although its peripheral areas can be at a different temperature)
"Now heat the walls to 50 degrees while keeping that two foot radius of air around the horse at fifteen degrees. How much heat will the horse radiate? Exactly the same amount as when the walls were at zero, because the ambient temperature round the horse has not changed."
If we are talking about radiation alone, then the important thing to understand is that all surfaces emit and absorb radiation. The 50C surface will be emitting a lot more than the 0C surface, and the horse will be absorbing that so the temperature of the horse's coat will rise. This has nothing to do with air temperature. It is why an electric fire feels warm even when the air temperature is cold, it is why grills and toasters work and things cook differently from baking in the oven.
"Walls do not have an attractive force for heat. They cannot "draw heat from horses" as you suggest. The only heat available to reach the walls from the horse does not change depending on the temperature of the walls. It changes depending on the temperature of the air around the horse."
I hope I have explained that. The term "draw" is used because the net effect of radiation is that heat transfers from the warm horse to the cold wall.
"Now consider the horse standing in a nice draught free stable, with its body heating up the air around it. The horse in the wooden stable is warming the air, and some of that warmth is escaping into the cold night air through the walls and roof of the stable. The identical horse next door is in a stone stable. That stone warmed up in the winter sunshine during the day, and is now releasing some heat into the stable. In addition, less of the heat being created by the horse is going to escape into the cold night air because a big thick bit of stone, concrete block, or brick is a better insulator than a thin piece of wood."
I think this has already been explained. All this assumes thermal equilibrium. If there is not thermal equilibrium then things are different. A great thick stone wall has lots of thermal inertia and so will take a lot longer to warm up than a wooden wall - this has nothing to do with insulation. It contributes to the reason why stone houses feel cooler on hot summer days. (We could talk about the warm horse creating a convection current so the air is warmer at the top of this hypothetical draught-free stable than at the bottom, and the significant of heat loss through the roof. We could also ask whether the cold walls generate condensation and what happens to the associated latent heat, but that is a whole new thread we had best avoid.)
By the way, I do have am a physicist, have a PhD and keep animals. I do know my science, and so does Dr M.
MotherOfChickens
MotherDucker
Agreed.someone is wrong on the internet? Big deal-move on. Resorting to bitching across different social media platforms should be beneath adults.
DabDab
Thinks the luddites had a point...
Yeah, that's why I didn't read initially either. I have one horse who is over rugged because long, heart wrenching experience with him has taught me that he needs to be, one gets some rugging because she grows no coat and without the rug I'd be taking out another mortgage to feed her, and one grows a shagpile carpet every winter so gets no rug as I can't imagine anyone rugging such a hairy beast. They all live in the same stables though 😉
ycbm
Overwhelmed
Sorry guys, I know you're sick of this, but if I'm wrong I want to understand why and admit it. Please just skip this if it annoys you.
Hack 4 fun, OK, let's say the horse is a toaster. A toaster does not radiate more heat because you put a frozen piece of bread in it than a thawed one. Why, then, would a horse radiate more heat because one type of stable wall is colder than another?
And if it does, if the air temperature has been stable in the stable for some time, why would it radiate more to a wooden wall than a stone wall when the two would be the same temperature, assuming all else is equal?
And irespective of the wall material, what is the relative heat loss of, say, a 500 kg horse by radiation to a wall and through respiration and through the skin to the air around it, given a air temperature of, say, zero.
Out of interest, I've been out and measured my stables.
Internal temperature of my one wooden wall 13c
Internal temperature of the stone walls. 13c
Internal air temperature of the stables 13c
External air temperature 6c
My horses are in the field one has a rug on three don't. One in a rug will get a thicker rug later in the year, one will get a thin rug only when out, when he's clipped, later in the year. Two won't get a rug at all. Horses for courses.
Hack 4 fun, OK, let's say the horse is a toaster. A toaster does not radiate more heat because you put a frozen piece of bread in it than a thawed one. Why, then, would a horse radiate more heat because one type of stable wall is colder than another?
And if it does, if the air temperature has been stable in the stable for some time, why would it radiate more to a wooden wall than a stone wall when the two would be the same temperature, assuming all else is equal?
And irespective of the wall material, what is the relative heat loss of, say, a 500 kg horse by radiation to a wall and through respiration and through the skin to the air around it, given a air temperature of, say, zero.
Out of interest, I've been out and measured my stables.
Internal temperature of my one wooden wall 13c
Internal temperature of the stone walls. 13c
Internal air temperature of the stables 13c
External air temperature 6c
My horses are in the field one has a rug on three don't. One in a rug will get a thicker rug later in the year, one will get a thin rug only when out, when he's clipped, later in the year. Two won't get a rug at all. Horses for courses.
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Hack4fun
Well-Known Member
Let's go over this again - it is not easy but the science of radiation is well established. The amount of heat radiated by the horse depends solely on the temperature of the horse. The amount of heat radiated by the stable walls is determined by the temperature of the walls.
The walls also absorb the radiation from the horse (and everything else but lets keep it simple). Similarly the horse absorbs radiation from the walls. So, we have heat being radiated and heat being absorbed at both surfaces. What is important is the difference between them. If they were the same temperature then there would be no flow of heat at all. Turning to the toaster, the frozen bread absorbs more heat than the warm bread because not because the toaster radiates more heat but because the bread radiates less. (This is all very simplistic, things like reflectivity also impacts upon the flow of heat and the ice crystals may make a difference, but lets not go there).
Air temperature has little to do with it - we are talking about the radiation from surfaces and that depends on the temperature of the surface. Well, the fourth power of the absolute temperature to be more accurate.
Now, lets forget about radiation entirely for a moment. There are other mechanisms of heat transfer such as convection. Air temperature, and also the speed it is moving over the surface, are very very important here. Similarly evaporation rates will depend on air temperature, surface temperature and humidity. Does that help?
I don't have quantitative data about how much heat is exchanged with the environment by all these different mechanisms, but Dr M is your man for that as he is an international expert on this topic.
The walls also absorb the radiation from the horse (and everything else but lets keep it simple). Similarly the horse absorbs radiation from the walls. So, we have heat being radiated and heat being absorbed at both surfaces. What is important is the difference between them. If they were the same temperature then there would be no flow of heat at all. Turning to the toaster, the frozen bread absorbs more heat than the warm bread because not because the toaster radiates more heat but because the bread radiates less. (This is all very simplistic, things like reflectivity also impacts upon the flow of heat and the ice crystals may make a difference, but lets not go there).
Air temperature has little to do with it - we are talking about the radiation from surfaces and that depends on the temperature of the surface. Well, the fourth power of the absolute temperature to be more accurate.
Now, lets forget about radiation entirely for a moment. There are other mechanisms of heat transfer such as convection. Air temperature, and also the speed it is moving over the surface, are very very important here. Similarly evaporation rates will depend on air temperature, surface temperature and humidity. Does that help?
I don't have quantitative data about how much heat is exchanged with the environment by all these different mechanisms, but Dr M is your man for that as he is an international expert on this topic.
DabDab
Thinks the luddites had a point...
Heat radiation is given out by bodies (a horse, a human, a stove, a wall, a bucket...), even if the temperature of the surrounding air is very cold in comparison to the body and there is no convection of heat into the air (although this is practically impossible in our world). If one body emitting radiant heat is in proximity to another body emitting radiant heat there will be a net effect between the two, and the lower heat emitting body will end up with a net absorption of heat.
A low heat emitting body does not draw radiant heat from a higher heat emitting body, it simply gains from the heat that is freely given out by being in proximity.
The net gainer may then convect that heat to the surrounding air or conduct it to another body that it's touching, or if it doesn't readily do either of those things it will hold onto the heat for a while as thermal mass.
A low heat emitting body does not draw radiant heat from a higher heat emitting body, it simply gains from the heat that is freely given out by being in proximity.
The net gainer may then convect that heat to the surrounding air or conduct it to another body that it's touching, or if it doesn't readily do either of those things it will hold onto the heat for a while as thermal mass.
blitznbobs
Well-Known Member
I get the physics but has anyone actually done the study of how much heat a horse loses and energy I’d used up in the various stables? Biology is, of course, a whole lot harder to understand than physics ... and has anyone compared the diffetenc in a real world scenario. If so could you give a reference for that study? Thanks
PapaverFollis
Well-Known Member
I can't help but think that in a real world scenario the volume (particularly ceiling height) and draughtiness of the stable is going to have a much more profound effect on the horse than the building material...
Bob notacob
Well-Known Member
Stone/Brick/concrete walls tend to draw moisture up from the ground unless having an adequate damp course (as rare as rocking horse dandruff)Evaporation from the walls tends to negate any surface heating by radiation . This creates a larger temperature gradient and thus greater rate of cooling. Wood on the other hand is a poor conductor of heat and is less prone to drawing moisture up from the ground.Thew wood will also be radiating the absorbed heat energy back at a far greater rate than stone. Enough physics, horses are mostly over rugged and its cruelty through misguided kindness.
KittenInTheTree
Well-Known Member
Hmm. I'll stick to using my own judgement regarding rugs for my lot, and leave those around me alone to do the same.
DabDab
Thinks the luddites had a point...
I very much doubt it. There's just too many variables. Modelling the thermodynamics is one thing, but modelling lots of different 'horses' to plug into the model is just completely unrealistic.
And even if you could reliably model all of that, when are we saying that an individual horse is cold and in need of a rug? Beyond a certain energy usage? Is that per unit or cumulative? I can be happily maintaining my body temperature but I'm still 'cold'. Is it the same for a horse?
An exercise in using science to overcomplicate an issue.
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eahotson
Well-Known Member
I think that we should consider various factors.Overnight,in a field with shelter and several field mates horses huddle together for warmth.If there is ,for instance,only two of them and very little shelter they may get cold.Stables.Mostly horses are on their own in stables.No one to cuddle up to.I put a rug on my unclipped welsh last winter when it was very cold and he was much happier.The decision was made easier because their stables have grills between and they can act as a wind tunnel.
ycbm
Overwhelmed
Thank you for taking the time to explain this DabDab. It confirms what I thought I knew what about radiance.
Surfaces absorb radiant heat that's coming at them, they don't draw it out of anything nearby.
And like a toaster does not emit more heat if a slice of bread is frozen if than if it is thawed, a horse does not emit more heat if the stable wall is stone or wood, only if the horse itself is colder or hotter.
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ycbm
Overwhelmed
Absolutely true, there are so many factors. I lowered a ceiling in one of my stables because it was high, the heat was rising and the horse was freezing. And whether your stables are damp or dry, the walls thick or thin, inside or outside, draughty or not, facing south or north. The list is endless. Fabric of the walls is not especially relevant.
Horses should be rugged according to how cold they are. Unless they are dangeriusly fat, when the cold should be used to get them to lose some weight.
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Pearlsasinger
Up in the clouds
What a pity you didn't ask this in your first post, rather than telling an international expert that he was wrong just because you didn't understand what he was saying.
Incidentally, I got rather lost in all the scientific explanations, too. I am a linguist, rather than a scientist but am definitely against over-rugging horses. Of course if their health dictates that they rugging, that is not over-rugging.