splashgirl45
Lurcher lover
not sure if i have done this right, but he says what i have been thinking for a long time....
interesting views on dressage
- Thread starter splashgirl45
- Start date
not sure if i have done this right, but he says what i have been thinking for a long time....
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
Resonates with me too.
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LadyGascoyne
Well-Known Member
For me, the question is that if this is the expected standard, then how do Mim and I even begin to put ourselves into context?
Mim is not remotely the same shape as this horse - they are as far apart as a pug is from a lurcher. Her natural movement is economical, sound and even and if we worked really hard, we could probably deliver a nice, understated but correct test. But how do you reconcile that against the performance in this video?
My worry is that our best efforts will always be negligible and boring, and the fact that getting an araby, squat little pony to carry itself and its rider nicely will take me an awful lot of blood sweat and tears will be overlooked because she lacks the ‘presence’ that is prized so highly - and appears to be the major selling point of every dressage-bred youngster I have seen recently.
Eta, in case it wasn’t clear, I think this test is awful to watch, and so extreme it doesn’t bear thinking about the long term damage on a young horse. I just also feel like it looks like a different sport to the dressage that I could expect to do on my wonderful but athletically average little horse.
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Marigold4
Well-Known Member
There are specific dressage comps for Arabs now though. BD do one, I think, but there are others as well
splashgirl45
Lurcher lover
this sort of test is showing what i dislike and what the chap in the video i posted said is wrong with dressage judging. i would prefer to see a less flashy horse who is in harmony with its rider and doesnt look forced. i never liked totilas , i know im in the minority but i hate the unnatural front leg waving horses and i am afraid i include charlottes freestyle in that. some of the para tests over the last few days have been a pleasure to watch especially the danish grey horse ridden by a young man, i cant remember their names..
LadyGascoyne
Well-Known Member
I’m sure there are but my point is more that dressage now looks like that video- which is so extreme, and so over the top that a good, correct test doesn’t even seem like the same sport.
I will look for some for Mim - she’s partbred but high %.
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milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
i think *some* dressage looks like that. like the top 1%. go to any normal affiliated show any day of the week and you will see something completely different. I know I'm never going to compete on the international stage so it doesn't affect me, and the same judges do seem to be able to tell the difference between a horse bred to wrap its legs around its ears and one with "normal" paces.
oldie48
Well-Known Member
Mmmm, well I'm going to stick my neck out as usual. You may dislike flashy horses but to say the Totilas is not in harmony with his rider and looks forced, is IMHO untrue. This is the way he moved, it is not forced. I thought CE made some good points but surely he was talking about the "ideal" standard for which the rider and horse would get a 10? As far as I know, no-one has got straight 10's through the whole test, judges are deducting marks on the basis of what they see, neck a bit short, good steps but no lowering of the haunches, showing tension etc etc. All the stuff he mentions is an area for mark deduction. Do some judges reward quality of movement over correct training, yes of course they do but i think it happens less than it did. Sports move on and to compare the average amateur rider (as someone has "how can I compete?") to a pro is like comparing an amateur cyclist to a pro with the obvious exception that I could buy a top class bike and still come last in every race and I could buy a top class horse and not even get to the start line.
TPO
Well-Known Member
Like MP said Edward Gal etc al are at the very top of the field. They are hardly a reason not to give BD a go and start at Intro/Prelim then work up.
Go and watch local shows because there is a huge variety of horses of all breeds, sizes and "scope".
You can only row your own boat so train your own horse in the way that you (generic) consider "correct" and fo from there. The rules and scoring system for BD readily available so you know the criteria before starting. Correct is correct, performing a movement at the right place at the right time and having the correct contact, impulsion etc will make it hard for a marks to be deducted.
It's turning into an echo chamber on here regarding dressage.
Go and watch local shows because there is a huge variety of horses of all breeds, sizes and "scope".
You can only row your own boat so train your own horse in the way that you (generic) consider "correct" and fo from there. The rules and scoring system for BD readily available so you know the criteria before starting. Correct is correct, performing a movement at the right place at the right time and having the correct contact, impulsion etc will make it hard for a marks to be deducted.
It's turning into an echo chamber on here regarding dressage.
LadyGascoyne
Well-Known Member
Definitely not saying ‘how can I compete’ at all - I wouldn’t imagine any amateur would be able to compete with a pro.
But I don’t think it’s unreasonable to want to be able to look at the top end of your chosen sport and aspire to something. Personally, I look at that and it’s not inspiring, it’s off-putting.
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
Try looking at the top end of the national sport. The summer nationals are coming up. Watch the silver sections. it's still top class sport but it's not the same as what you see at the Olympics or the Europeans. I find that much more aspirational, from a "could I do that?" POV
LadyGascoyne
Well-Known Member
TBH, mp, you and your pony have been significant contributors to the aspirational content that has resulted in me dusting off the dressage skills.
splashgirl45
Lurcher lover
i think it does look forced, you dont.....we differ...thats ok..i said i was in the minority and am just stating how i feel.... CE is saying that the flashy behind the vertical ,mouth open was being rewarded to the detriment of horse welfare ..the trouble is the judges ARE awarding 10's to these horses so people in the lower levels will think that is the standard to aim for..
blitznbobs
Well-Known Member
This is the same in all sports to aspire to the top is not necessarily desirable. Take the top cyclists - yes they have flash bikes but its well documented that most take drugs and blood doping is common place as it’s virtually undetectable… top level sport is rarely ‘natural’
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
jeez, haha
What spurs me on is having a network of peers and being able to see how everyone has struggles, even the ones with the spectacular horses. Last year where I train they started up a monthly clinic for folk working at or around advanced to GP level and we all watched each others lessons over 2 days so you can see that although someone's horse looks super amazing, actually it has a difficult temperament. whereas the next person might have a fabulous natured horse but it finds a particular movement super tricky. and then there was me, and my horse has bad temperament and limited paces but we try REALLY hard, haha.
and some of those peers are the ones in the numbers at the nationals. and one has actually started international shows. It all comes within focus, and that motivates me hugely because I can see that it's not that far out of reach. What happens at the Olympics is sort of irrelevant then because there's still this huge strata of dressage sport between me and that, which I do believe I can feel my way along with correct training and persistence (and a good dose of luck)
What spurs me on is having a network of peers and being able to see how everyone has struggles, even the ones with the spectacular horses. Last year where I train they started up a monthly clinic for folk working at or around advanced to GP level and we all watched each others lessons over 2 days so you can see that although someone's horse looks super amazing, actually it has a difficult temperament. whereas the next person might have a fabulous natured horse but it finds a particular movement super tricky. and then there was me, and my horse has bad temperament and limited paces but we try REALLY hard, haha.
and some of those peers are the ones in the numbers at the nationals. and one has actually started international shows. It all comes within focus, and that motivates me hugely because I can see that it's not that far out of reach. What happens at the Olympics is sort of irrelevant then because there's still this huge strata of dressage sport between me and that, which I do believe I can feel my way along with correct training and persistence (and a good dose of luck)
EllenJay
Well-Known Member
But surely, if you were aspiring to be top level, you would get the right horse for that. When I watch the top level riders (CDJ, CH) I don't aspire to be competing against them - 1) I don't have the talent, 2) I don't have the time 3) I don't have the right horse. But I can aspire to ride better, to train my horse better and to compete at a level that suits us both.
For any sport that as an amateur you love, the chance to compete at top level is way beyond most people's reach - mostly because they are just not good enough, but it doesn't stop them competing at their level.
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
agreed
and also, even at GP it's a continuum, you can train you and your horse up to ride a correct GP test and still be light years away from the perfomances that the CDJs of the world can pull off. but it's still a bloody HUGE thing to achieve. and to get any horse to that level has to feel like a mega threshold to have crossed. it's not that amateurs have to stick at prelim and novice. the higher levels are there to try for if you want to, there's nothing saying you can only have a go if you're sure you will score 75%. if I ever get round a GP on a Friday at my local show it will feel like I've been to the olympics, haha. it's all relative.
LadyGascoyne
Well-Known Member
I’m not aspiring to compete against them. Like you, I’d aspire to train better and ride better. But what is “better” if it’s not what exemplified at the top level of sport?
The issue is not that we should all be able to compete with the top % - we shouldn’t, it’s a level of total dedication and commitment and professionalism that an amateur rider doesn’t choose to have, isn’t capable of or isn’t able to have.
The question is how to place the concept of ‘better’ when the ‘best’ is so far from the original concept of the sport.
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
on a personal level i just don't view the sort of sport that you see at the international championships as a reference point.
I think you can objectively make your own horse "better" by simply working along the scales of training. you could do that in a vacuum (i mean you might need input from a trainer but it would be possible without even seeing another person ride).
I think you can objectively make your own horse "better" by simply working along the scales of training. you could do that in a vacuum (i mean you might need input from a trainer but it would be possible without even seeing another person ride).
oldie48
Well-Known Member
Nope they aren't awarding 10's, not in any of the classes that I've watched. I'm near enough to a major competition centre to see many of the pro horses coming through the grades and they get hammered when they are tense, behind the vertical, not sitting etc but I see them learning their lessons and often competing for the first time at a level when they are not established, making mistakes, struggling with a big atmosphere etc. Even correctly trained horses with flashy movement get tense in a big arena, the higher levels are really testing for both horse and rider and in serious competition when the score really matters, the rider is going for maximum marks. You might not like that but no-one wins by doing a "safe" test, to get the higher movements you need that power, to be just a little bit on the edge. I've not ridden at that level so am willing to swallow my words but at the lower levels most people seem to go for a safe correct test and accept that they are not competing against the top pros.
tallyho!
Following a strict mediterranean diet...
That’s part of the problem. All horses are capable of being ridden correctly. Dressage is not just a warmbloods sport.
tallyho!
Following a strict mediterranean diet...
What many people have been thinking for years I’m glad it’s been said by someone so eminent. When I stopped competing I heard on the grapevine that I’d not the guts for it anymore… lost my nerve. While actually I had the guts to realise that the direction I was going in at the time was shit for the horse and that I had the nerve to say outwardly that the judges were biased.
by the way… where does it say specifically in the rules a horse “needs that power”… or “a little bit on the edge”?
dressage is about calmness and collectedness. Safe was actually the key on a battlefield. This whole showy business is what’s getting dressage in trouble. It is the judges fault too, who else? By rewarding the power and edginess is ruling out all that dressage is supposed to be.
by the way… where does it say specifically in the rules a horse “needs that power”… or “a little bit on the edge”?
dressage is about calmness and collectedness. Safe was actually the key on a battlefield. This whole showy business is what’s getting dressage in trouble. It is the judges fault too, who else? By rewarding the power and edginess is ruling out all that dressage is supposed to be.
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
i think this is definitely a valid point. it's probably fair to apply at all levels. if you're riding at a level for the first time, especially, a safe "clear round" is enough of a challenge! figuring out how to take calculated risks to get the clear round with the extra brilliance that brings the 9s and 10s instead of 7s and 8s is a whole new element of the sport.
HashRouge
Well-Known Member
How is it "well-documented"? If something is "well-documented" then it should be provable - rumours on the internet don't count.
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
i think all this comes back to the many discussions that have taken place on this board about whether competition dressage is what some people want to take part in or not. and you either sign up for it or you turn away, cos this is what's currently on offer.
I just had a quick google for the FEI principles and they talk about a bit more than calmness and collectedness so I think you can see where power comes into it... "lively impulsion", anyone? any sport that takes a performance and has to somehow rank a group of people who are all essentially proficient will always tend towards the *extra* I think. otherwise you have, like, 5 people joint first every time.
Zuzan
Well-Known Member
Makes sense to me think Carel Eijkenaar has hit the nail on the head.. This is why I just follow M Karl's school.. it's clear .. it's logical .. it's systematice but adaptable to individual horses. .. don't give a fig for competition dressage .. most of it just looks foreced, heavy and ugly to me.
tallyho!
Following a strict mediterranean diet...
I think "lively impulsion" has been taken out context just a tad maybe I don't know...
Yes I agree with the bit about you either sign up for it and live with your mistakes or you recognise them and bow out. It is very VERY hard though turn away completely because you love the horse and the art (though maybe the art bit is really just now about how much shiny leather you can use on a horses' face) it hurts to watch some of what's on offer knowing the repercussions so you keep a beady eye and join lively action groups instead....
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
ummm... i don't think living with your mistakes is something exclusive to the dressage scene.
or that by signing up for a sport you have to sacrifice all principles of correct horse-friendly training.
or that by signing up for a sport you have to sacrifice all principles of correct horse-friendly training.
tallyho!
Following a strict mediterranean diet...
On a personal level I can relate but, generally speaking, it is a reference point. The thing I used to like about SJ is that you got to the top mainly on you and the horses' skill (then that went badly wrong didn't it!). Many young people though do look at the upper echelons and aspire to be somewhere there one day, maybe. If they don't come across the truths then they don't know any better and that is I think what Eljkenaar is trying to say - the fact that there are those that aspire to follow the wrong footsteps, but unsaid is the undertone that they can only truly get there at the expense of the horse.