interesting views on dressage

[milliepops]

I didn't say it was, did I?

On your second point - I didn't say that either.

OK in that case I'd ask for you to explain the sentence below a bit better because I'm not trying to be obtuse, that's exactly how it comes across?
I said you either sign up for the competitive sport as it is or you don't. nothing about mistakes or living with anything. I would not be so up myself to think I've never made mistakes, either within the sport or outside it, and I'm sure i will continue to do so in every aspect of horse riding and ownership, it's the nature of learning and being an imperfect student. I think you can recognise them and carry on trying to improve within the framework of competitive sport.

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Yes I agree with the bit about you either sign up for it and live with your mistakes or you recognise them and bow out. It is very VERY hard though turn away completely because you love the horse and the art (though maybe the art bit is really just now about how much shiny leather you can use on a horses' face) it hurts to watch some of what's on offer knowing the repercussions so you keep a beady eye and join lively action groups instead....

 

[tallyho!]

I was agreeing with you milliepops...

i think all this comes back to the many discussions that have taken place on this board about whether competition dressage is what some people want to take part in or not. and you either sign up for it or you turn away, cos this is what's currently on offer.
I just had a quick google for the FEI principles and they talk about a bit more than calmness and collectedness so I think you can see where power comes into it... "lively impulsion", anyone? any sport that takes a performance and has to somehow rank a group of people who are all essentially proficient will always tend towards the *extra* I think. otherwise you have, like, 5 people joint first every time.

I was agreeing with you??? So when I wrote about mistakes and recognising them it was about recognising the mistake I was making at competing in the environment we are talking about/on offer at the time - and yes it does extend well beyond dressage - not exclusive in the slightest. However - dressage is the subject in question and what I was specifically referring to in MY post about My experience. I do have to live with those.

Any better?

 

[tallyho!]

To add - by "mistakes" I do mean mistakes in dressage training i.e. not true principles i.e. using gadgets etc to achieve better marks.

 

[blitznbobs]

How is it "well-documented"? If something is "well-documented" then it should be provable - rumours on the internet don't count.

https://www.velonews.com/news/road/circ-report-20-90-percent-modern-peloton-still-doping/

Just one report but there are loads

 

[milliepops]

I was agreeing with you milliepops...


I was agreeing with you??? So when I wrote about mistakes and recognising them it was about recognising the mistake I was making at competing in the environment we are talking about/on offer at the time - and yes it does extend well beyond dressage - not exclusive in the slightest. However - dressage is the subject in question and what I was specifically referring to in MY post about My experience. I do have to live with those.

Any better?

I see. it came across as completely different, perhaps in the general tone of the thread about dressage "going wrong" and young people aspiring to wrongheaded things.
FWIW i think the BD youth riders are pretty brilliant and following the right footsteps.

 

[splashgirl45]

Nope they aren't awarding 10's, not in any of the classes that I've watched. I'm near enough to a major competition centre to see many of the pro horses coming through the grades and they get hammered when they are tense, behind the vertical, not sitting etc but I see them learning their lessons and often competing for the first time at a level when they are not established, making mistakes, struggling with a big atmosphere etc. Even correctly trained horses with flashy movement get tense in a big arena, the higher levels are really testing for both horse and rider and in serious competition when the score really matters, the rider is going for maximum marks. You might not like that but no-one wins by doing a "safe" test, to get the higher movements you need that power, to be just a little bit on the edge. I've not ridden at that level so am willing to swallow my words but at the lower levels most people seem to go for a safe correct test and accept that they are not competing against the top pros.

once again i disagree, judges are awarding 10's for movements which do not show the correct outline, still mouth, etc, i am not talking about national competitions, i am talking about international comps where some well known riders are being awarded higher marks rewarding tension, unhappy in the mouth, short neck etc. i look at the score sheets so i can understand which movements are deemed good by the judges so i can see if i am in tune with what they see . i have been a dressage writer for many years both at lower levels and a few years ago at the top level before the fashion for flashiness arrived and feel the same as CE. i know my view is not fashionable but there are some riders i dont enjoy watching these days ,whatever anyone says to excuse this type of riding i am unlikely to be persuaded that it is a good thing.....

 

[milliepops]

I don't think anyone is trying to excuse it though. I think trying to understand it is a different thing. and I can 100% understand what oldie has suggested re the risk taking. Sometimes it comes off and looks stunning. sometimes it hits a bum note and looks bad. it everyone stuck on safe and steady then they'd all be bunched up on 65% like you see at the local show down the road. At some point it's natural that someone sticks their head above that and says ... what if....? and if they pull it off then they are rightly rewarded for it.

some of the risky brilliance i can think of that I've really enjoyed are Carl's rides, he often has the horses that are too hot and too anxious or nervous and somehow coaxes brilliance from them, but some people might say that horse just has the wrong temperament for top sport and find something naturally braver or more submissive or whatever. Nip Tuck at Olympia... brought me to tears watching that horse knowing how spooky he was and yet he could be so willing to put everything into the performance. That's on the edge, a different side of the risk taking coin IMO.

 

[SpeedyPony]

I'm not really a dressage person, but looking at arguments that crop up about it I think there are two different issues- firstly the breeding for "flashiness" and athleticism, secondly the change in riding.
The first I'm not sure is always the worst thing- yes it's important to be breeding sound horses, but for the high levels that probably means breeding more athletic animals anyway, as you need animals that are bred to be capable of carrying themselves like that and have the conformation to support it (so far as is possible). I agree that some of the action seems over exaggerated and no longer represents the original movements accurately though, which is probably due to the change in the sport as a whole. It would be interesting to know if modern dressage horses have longer or shorter careers than their predecessors. It's not really fair to say that the choice of horse (breeding and "flashy" action) shouldn't matter at the top levels- we wouldn't expect to see a draught horse being raced (well, not against the thoroughbreds anyway ?) and a first class eventer wouldn't do well in a polo match .
The second point I think does represent a change in the standards and judging, I was reading a book by Ulrik Schramm the other day and came across his thoughts on outline- the ears should be the highest point of the horse and the nose slightly above the vertical- by which standard, most modern day dressage horses are overbent. I appreciate that this is only the view of one man, but he was writing in the 80s and comes across as a fairly establishment voice, so perhaps this is an indication of how the sport has changed?

 

[hock]

I saw Jessica’s test at the Olympics and her subsequent medal as a sign there is light at the end of the tunnel.

There is so much to put right with dressage. The judging but also the breeding of horses that are totally unsuitable in the main to be ridden by decent riders not professionals and ones that are bred to stay sound. The foals that are specifically bred for the job deserve more than the current boom or bust attitude that’s in fashion.

 

[shortstuff99]

I think some of it is changing. I watched the dressage world breeding championships at Verden this week and young horses tight in the neck and BTV were commented on and marked down. There was still some slightly strange judging (marking some down for not halting with immobility, but not others) but in the whole better ish.

 

[scats]

I enjoy watching dressage at the high levels. What I watch on the TV is just so out of my reach, but I still enjoy it. They are an entirely different type of horse to anything I’ll ever have and as a result of that, I don’t even compare them to what I do or would like to do. I was one of the few who actually liked Totilas and his strange way of going, but more from a sort of ‘showman’ perspective. I will always prefer the more workmanlike and correct types but I can definitely see that the breeding is going very much the other way.

 

[Lois Lame]

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=486883732262377

not sure if i have done this right, but he says what i have been thinking for a long time....

That was great.

 

[sbloom]

I quit competing (at a low level I will stress!) and watching dressage after attending the Europeans at Hickstead in 2003 where I camped and watched everything. Already at everyday competitions horses that were accurate but had flaws in their way of going were rewarded above harmonious rides, both against me and in classes where I wrote for the judge. The Euros was the nail in the coffin for me, those were the days where you could watch the warmup, I might even have some photos somewhere. Ulla Salzgeber was just about watchable, the rest much less so.

Things have got better since then, but horses are still rewarded for things such assubmission, accuracy and somehow athleticism above purity of gaits etc that the FEI rules still say are absolutely critical. You can read the rules however you like and justify what is rewarded today but Niggli et al would be spinning in their graves. I am very glad that the Carl and Charlotte have improved things, especially in the welfare side of things, but it's not enough to tempt me back if I had a horse again.

 

[ycbm]

once again i disagree, judges are awarding 10's for movements which do not show the correct outline, still mouth, etc

There's a thread running about the recent World best 6 year old and his teeth are chattering all through the test. I would like to see the horses with nosebands removed so that it can be clearly seen which horses want to open their mouths against the bit and which don't.

I'd be stuffed if I competed with either of my current two like that, but if we are talking about needing the extreme action to decide rosettes, I'd rather see it decided on which horses accept the bit quietly and which don't.
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[Marigold4]

I think his point about educating the next generation is really important. I have a German Riding Pony bred for dressage so I sometimes watch youth championships where they compete. Some riders are beautiful and in harmony with their pony but a lot lean back on the hands and stab the poor pony with their spurs at every stride. The rider's body leans far back and they drive their seatbones into the horse in canter. It is such a common 'look' in youth dressage that I suspect this way of riding is being taught by the trainers. They are not necessarily winning but for the sake of the pony's welfare, Carel is so right - it needs to stop!

 

[sbloom]

I think his point about educating the next generation is really important. I have a German Riding Pony bred for dressage so I sometimes watch youth championships where they compete. Some riders are beautiful and in harmony with their pony but a lot lean back on the hands and stab the poor pony with their spurs at every stride. The rider's body leans far back and they drive their seatbones into the horse in canter. It is such a common 'look' in youth dressage that I suspect this way of riding is being taught by the trainers. They are not necessarily winning but for the sake of the pony's welfare, Carel is so right - it needs to stop!

A huge number of riders are waterskiing, riding off the horse's mouth and the horse will never be able to truly be up in its back, yet they can score huge. We have somehow forgotten the horse's intrinsic nature, its biomechanics and its brain. If only it was just in young riders.

 

[shortstuff99]

There's a thread running about the recent World best 6 year old and his teeth are chattering all through the test. I would like to see the horses with nosebands removed so that it can be clearly seen which horses want to open their mouths against the bit and which don't.

I'd be stuffed if I competed with either of my current two like that, but if we are talking about needing the extreme action to decide rosettes, I'd rather see it decided on which horses accept the bit quietly and which don't.
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Your speakers must be much better then mine as I've watched it a couple of times and didn't hear his teeth grinding? I even re-watched it looking just at his mouth and he didn't look like it was gaping open, saw some light movement?

I am a staunch supporter of classic dressage and have argued on here many times about incorrect judging and scoring. Particularly for EG and AC etc who barely conform to the FEI directives for movement.

But I liked that horse ?‍.

 

[ycbm]

Your speakers must be much better then mine as I've watched it a couple of times and didn't hear his teeth grinding? I even re-watched it looking just at his mouth and he didn't look like it was gaping open, saw some light movement?

But I liked that horse ?‍.

I didn't say I heard anything and I didn't say gaping or grinding, I said chattering. In response to someone else making a comment about mouths that are not still being rewarded. He's the best 6 year old in the world and his mouth is not still.

I didn't have the sound up. His teeth look too me as if they are chattering constantly. It would be interesting to see what he would do without a noseband on.

I like him too, my comment was only about his mouth, answering another post about unstill mouths.
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[shortstuff99]

I didn't say I heard anything and I didn't say gaping or grinding, I said chattering. In response to someone else making a comment about mouths that are not still being rewarded. He's the best 6 year old in the world and his mouth is not still.

I didn't have the sound up. His teeth look too me as if they are chattering constantly. It would be interesting to see what he would do without a noseband on.

I like him too, my comment was only about his mouth, answering another post about unstill mouths.
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Under classical dressage the mouth shouldn't be still, that is incorrect. The jaw should have light movement and relaxation, similar to if a horse was eating and chewing. A completely still mouth is as incorrect as a gaping wide open mouth.

 

[ycbm]

Under classical dressage the mouth shouldn't be still, that is incorrect. The jaw should have light movement and relaxation, similar to if a horse was eating and chewing. A completely still mouth is as incorrect as a gaping wide open mouth.

It's supposed to stay closed, though, no?
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[shortstuff99]

It's supposed to stay closed, though, no?
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Not necessarily, even Phlipe Karl talks about some horse needing to have a slightly open mouth in the way of going if the horse prefers it. What is key is softness of the jaw and proper acceptance of the bit. It is only modern dressage that says the mouth has to be closed.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I've typed like 8 different responses to this thread but keep changing my mind on whether or not to get involved ?

I do think there are some good points in the video.

I also don't get why some will defend/excuse modern dressage so passionately instead of saying, hey yeah, there are some things we could tweak.

 

[ycbm]

Not necessarily, even Phlipe Karl talks about some horse needing to have a slightly open mouth in the way of going if the horse prefers it. What is key is softness of the jaw and proper acceptance of the bit. It is only modern dressage that says the mouth has to be closed.

OK. I get that, but I'm still pretty sure that opening and closing the front teeth constantly (what I call "chattering") is a sign of tension. I certainly interpret it that way in my own, they both do it then stop if I can reduce their tension.

The 6 year old is lovely and he is quite probably the best 6 year old in the world in spite of it. I only mentioned it because it was a specific point made in the video, not because I don't think he's a good horse.

Though the wastage rates of the others bred to achieve him, and his likely longevity, also bother me about the modern dressage industry.
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[J&S]

I saw Jessica’s test at the Olympics and her subsequent medal as a sign there is light at the end of the tunnel.

I do not feel qualified to add to this post but I definitely agree with the above quote. That horse really stood out for me as being a truly natural mover, not forced, held up/in and I was delighted that the judges felt the same way.

 

[shortstuff99]

OK. I get that, but I'm still pretty sure that opening and closing the front teeth constantly (what I call "chattering") is a sign of tension. I certainly interpret it that way in my own, they both do it then stop if I can reduce their tension.

The 6 year old is lovely and he is quite probably the best 6 year old in the world in spite of it. I only mentioned it because it was a specific point made in the video, not because I don't think he's a good horse.

Though the wastage rates of the others bred to achieve him, and his likely longevity, also bother me about the modern dressage industry.
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I'm hoping he will have correct dressage training and go on to good things. I'm not a fan of when she rides Everdale so I'm hoping with this horse already being better in his way of going he will be easier to train in this way.

It was nicer to see the tension and necks being commented on as that means riders will change.

I'm not comfortable with Helgstrand et al completely dominating the breeding scene as that means they chose a lot of what is good or not.

 

[J&S]

Though the wastage rates of the others bred to achieve him, and his likely longevity, also bother me about the modern dressage industry

This also resonates. I have heard of the wastage from first hand and find it very sad.

 

[shortstuff99]

I do not feel qualified to add to this post but I definitely agree with the above quote. That horse really stood out for me as being a truly natural mover, not forced, held up/in and I was delighted that the judges felt the same way.

She trains with the head of the Spanish Riding School so is more classical in her techniques then say Werth.

 

[eahotson]

This is the same in all sports to aspire to the top is not necessarily desirable. Take the top cyclists - yes they have flash bikes but its well documented that most take drugs and blood doping is common place as it’s virtually undetectable… top level sport is rarely ‘natural’

You probably have a point there but at least the human athletes are volunteers.

 

[oldie48]

With regard to international comps, in the individual GP at this Olympics, B-W had the top score of 84+%, the highest score from a judge was 85% and I am in total agreement that this was also for me the best test (that I was able to see). I don't know how many 10's she got, I suspect none or the odd one. Fry got 77%. clearly her horse was tense and short in the neck and she didn't get the marks, her horse is an extravagant mover but where were her 10's? I'm not sure if I am one of the people described as "defending Modern Dresssage" but over the past decade or so I feel there's been a positive change for the better and it's important to recognise that rather than keep going down the same polarised route of Modern v classical. fwiw the best classical and modern horse and rider combinations look the same to me and are an example of what every rider should aspire to. However, any horse is capable of showing tension in a test (just as the rider has to cope with his/her nerves) doesn't matter how they are trained and when they do the rider just has to do their best with what they have under them at the time. I find people are too ready to sit in judgement, we all seem to have become armchair critics of the worst kind. Just my personal view, of course, but I saw some lovely horses and some pleasing tests, just wish I'd been able to watch more.

 

[milliepops]

Re the mouth thing. this article struck a chord with me the other day.
https://dressagetoday.com/theory/to...challenge-curing-a-tongue-problem-anja-beran?

I've ridden a lot of horses training for dressage as a second or later life career and they often have contact problems, and I've seen how they have settled as the work has improved. but I'd never aspire to a still mouth, quiet chewing is how you know there's something 2 way going on in the conversation rather than the horse just being totally passive.

as far as the 6yo goes, I mean, i think you can see that there's not a mouth problem stemming from crap training or tension etc. the age classes are not scored like normal set tests and when you look at the criteria I think you can see why he got a superb score, and he has that elusive "happy athlete" thing in spades. if that's not a top quality 6yo i don't know what is.


eta. i just looked up his results out of interest. 10s for trot, canter, submission and perspective and an 8 for the walk.