Irish breeders without warmblood?

[sport horse]

I feel very fortunate to have secured two mares- to be future broodmares- who are both true RIDxTB. One is a 50%/50% and the other 75%RID/25%TB. Both beautiful examples of athletic workmanlike horses carrying substance with outstanding temperaments, excellent natural paces and wonderful jumping attitudes. Although, they are a 'look' now, compared to the WB (particularly what is seen in the dressage arena a lot now, horses pretty enough to be show hacks!) I honestly think they will be making a comeback amongst the amature market.

I think it's pretty cheeky that there are horses parading the ISH title who carry less than 12% irish blood and the rest is warmblood.

edit to fix my mathematical miscalculation

Out of interest what stallions will you use on your mares? I assume you are wanting to keep pure irish so will you go for the pure ID stallion and possibly get quite a heavy produduct or for a TB and get too much blood?

 

[ycbm]

Out of interest what stallions will you use on your mares? I assume you are wanting to keep pure irish so will you go for the pure ID stallion and possibly get quite a heavy produduct or for a TB and get too much blood?

A TB on the 50/50 will give the 3/4 bred that most competitive RC members were looking for back in the 80's. The eventers wanted 7/8.
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[Asha]

A TB on the 50/50 will give the 3/4 bred that most competitive RC members were looking for back in the 80's. The eventers wanted 7/8.
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Isnt it scary that the 1980s where approx 40 years ago

Id suggest that the amateur /RC market has changed a fair bit since then too.

 

[ycbm]

True but I really think demand is back for these horses, there is a definite backswing against warmbloods going on.
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[Asha]

True but I really think demand is back for these horses, there is a definite backswing against warmbloods going on.
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I agree, that we need more of these and less of warmbloods. But i also believe the average RC rider now may need a little less blood than 75%TB.
For me, 50/50 is the way to go. Although some of the full IDs now are a bit more sporty in type than they used to be.

 

[spacefaer]

The modern ID is much sportier and lighter than the draught from 40 years ago. I'd go so far to suggest that some of them are as light and sporty as the half breds of the 80s.

ID X Connie makes a nice classy lwt cob type - what I think of as a nice RC all-rounder type. For a more competitive RC type, I'd go ID xTB I which I'd expect to be able to jump BE Novice.
Our last half bred jumped BE Nov, hunted with some of the biggest packs in the country, worked at elementary and would have jumped a Foxhunter track. He was more than enough horse for a competitor amateur!

All the warmblood based ISHs my friends have, seem to be very prone to unsoundnesses - whether mental or physical.

 

[Kaylum]

Our ID Stallion was lightweight compared to the ones we see nowadays. He was from Ireland 27 years ago. There were some heavier around then and but he was only 15.3hh. IDs where bred with TBs as mares were cheap. You could pick them up for a few hundred or they were given away and people didnt really want to ride them so they bred from them.

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

A couple of pics of my traditionally bred boy. Sire a bigger built full ID not seen so much these days and an old fashioned TB national hunt mare. At 17.3, probably a bit too hefty for some people's taste and needs but exactly my my sort

 

[stormox]

True but I really think demand is back for these horses, there is a definite backswing against warmbloods going on.
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The demand is there but the people who want good RC horses of ID TB Connemara blood (TIH) will not pay the same money for a youngster as those who want top SJ or Event horses most of which contain warmblood.
So people breed horses with warmblood in them in the hope of getting that special sale-topper and not a run-of-the-mill hunter/RC price.

 

[ycbm]

The demand is there but the people who want good RC horses of ID TB Connemara blood (TIH) will not pay the same money for a youngster as those who want top SJ or Event horses most of which contain warmblood.
So people breed horses with warmblood in them in the hope of getting that special sale-topper and not a run-of-the-mill hunter/RC price.

We need a return to breeding ten horses which will sell into a market for those ten horses, away from a market breeding ten horses to try to get one megabucks elite horse and also producing 5 amateur market misfits and 4 more which will be shot before they are 8.

I'm exaggerating, I know, but that feels more than a bit like where we are at the moment.
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[GSD Woman]

How many of us are really aiming for the top of eventing or show jumping? I'm going to guess not that many. There may be some young people with stars in their eyes not realizing how expensive it really is and how rare it is. A good TIH, whether it has TB or Connie blood is going to make a better horse for those of us who want to hunt, do lower level eventing and riding club shows. As long as it isn't too tall I would love a TIH. I need to win the lottery first...

 

[Cortez]

I was heavily involved with helping breeders find markets for their young Irish horses up until about 5 years ago. The average breeder here in Ireland has 1 -3 mares, isn't usually that good at handling or training them, and looks to sell at weaning. Breeding for the leisure market wouldn't occur to 99% of breeders; they all want to breed a showjumper, and obviously get as much for their youngstock as possible. So they mostly moved away from the traditional ID X TB and started using WB stallions, with highly variable results as posters have stated above, but then it has been that way (as in unpredictable type) for years and years even before the WB's started coming in. Not only is the really good old type of ID mare very, very rare, but also access to good quality chasing type TB sires - stud fees are out of reach for non-TB breeders for the most part. It really does boil down to money. Frankly it isn't worthwhile breeding for the leisure market, the market always dictates.

 

[ImmyS]

I think such breeders/producers do still exist, but suppose becoming a rarity. The people I bought Finn from both breed and buy weanlings to produce for the amateur market. Finn is RID and probably not athletic enough for a more ambitious amateur however I have become friends with a lady who has 3 horses from Emma and they are a mixture of RID and TIH and they are super types - all out doing a mixture of eventing, RC, showing etc - are uncomplicated and super amateur horses, not to mention gorgeous to look at!

 

[Elno]

My experience is mixed of Dutch and German. If your friends' experience with her IDx was anything recent it doesn't reflect the days that people are talking about here, when the IDx was the goto amateur purchase in the UK, with a range of TB% blood depending on just how sporty you wanted the horse to be.
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You're probably right. Her horse was born 2007.

 

[Pink Gorilla]

I've got a friend looking for a good young Irish Sports horse to event who wants traditional lines without continental warmblood in the mix.

I remember somebody writing about how to identify those, but I can't remember what they said, can anyone remind me?

Does anyone know a breeder to recommend?
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The lady I bought my horse off in Lincolnshire (East Midlands) gets many of her young horses over from a couple of her contacts over in Ireland. They are traditional ISH types. She currently has a 4yo for sale which is 50% TB and 50% ID. Copperfield Equestrian on Facebook.

 

[GSD Woman]

The lady I bought my horse off in Lincolnshire (East Midlands) gets many of her young horses over from a couple of her contacts over in Ireland. They are traditional ISH types. She currently has a 4yo for sale which is 50% TB and 50% ID. Copperfield Equestrian on Facebook.

I went right over to FaceBook to see her page. I covet her horses.

 

[Mule]

Your friend may be interested in this website. It is is the Traditional Irish horse association website. It gives the contact details of breeders of the traditional Irish horse. Irish Draught, tb and connemara. https://www.traditionalirishhorse.com/

 

[Smoky 2022]

My horse is passported as a Irish sport horse but is 95% ID . She was sired by a very old style ID heavy stallion and her dam is a very old fashion ish with a lot of ID . She is not competition horse and her max jump is 80 cm . Traditional/ old lines don’t always make great horses . I think there is nothing wrong with adding warmblood to the mix it’s will improve the breed and stop a lot of inbreeding in certain lines.

 

[spacefaer]

My horse is passported as a Irish sport horse but is 95% ID . She was sired by a very old style ID heavy stallion and her dam is a very old fashion ish with a lot of ID . She is not competition horse and her max jump is 80 cm . Traditional/ old lines don’t always make great horses . I think there is nothing wrong with adding warmblood to the mix it’s will improve the breed and stop a lot of inbreeding in certain lines.

There's a lot wrong in adding WB to the breed of the Irish draught. The progeny will be ISHs (a type) not IDs to start with.

Modern draughts are getting much lighter and more sporty. They're nothing like the traditional old fashioned stamp. In fact I had a pure draught mare (Star Kingdom/Fast Silver) who had less bone than some TBs. She was incredibly athletic and scopey. She would have show jumped if I'd had the remotest inclination.

 

[eahotson]

I've got one (She said very smugly)? But he is not and never will be for sale, he was my 70th birthday present to myself.

Good for you.

 

[stangs]

@eahotson, you may want to look at the date of the post you quoted and consider the fact that the user you quoted is no longer on this site.

 

[anguscat]

Pride of Shaunlara a beautiful well-known stallion (1969) wasn’t a heavy sort in my view, even back in the day.
I love the ID and IDxTB and really do hope we start to see more around. But they can be quite big and I wonder if with less hunting there wont be demand for big horses with excellent but non-flashy paces.
I bred a lovely half bred by Ben Purple out of a little TB mare. He went Grade A and did the Foxhunter Final. I bought a lovely young chunky ISH: Clover Hill and King of Diamonds in his close pedigree. He went Newcomers/Foxhunter SJ and Advanced BD. Lovely useful horses.

 

[blitznbobs]

I don't want to speak for Rowreach, but I suspect she may mean the way my friend feels, and I do too.

The IDx imported from Ireland was the goto horse for everyone who wanted a hunter, good riding club horse or reliable eventer for the first 20 years of my horse owning career. Then they started using warmbloods, completely losing their USP, and in the eyes of many of us also losing their rideability, temperament and soundness. And also their mass market.

The friend who is looking is competing at BE Novice at the moment and is adamant she will not buy continental warmblood breeding lines. After 4/4 of my own going wrong, I wouldn't take another warmblood unless it was free.
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I bought one for all these reasons - never owned a less sound, less rideable horse in my life… i think i must’ve hit the friday afternoon version.?

 

[eahotson]

Your friend is talking about one experience, all horses can go wrong. I'm talking about all 4 well bred warmbloods that I have owned and a lot more I know of owned by others, compared with a lot of IDx I have owned or known owned by others.

In the amateur market I think most people will happily lose out on the pretty paces in favour of soundness and rideability. I predict a resurgence of the "does what it says on the tin" horse market if people will breed them again.
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Love.

 

[Kaylum]

There's a lot wrong in adding WB to the breed of the Irish draught. The progeny will be ISHs (a type) not IDs to start with.

Modern draughts are getting much lighter and more sporty. They're nothing like the traditional old fashioned stamp. In fact I had a pure draught mare (Star Kingdom/Fast Silver) who had less bone than some TBs. She was incredibly athletic and scopey. She would have show jumped if I'd had the remotest inclination.

Our stallion was lightweight athletic 30 plus years ago from the famous slyguff stud. He was perfect for showjumping. Short backed and compact. On the otherside we had bigger brood mares with boston and gold coin lines.

 

[Red-1]

Your friend is talking about one experience, all horses can go wrong. I'm talking about all 4 well bred warmbloods that I have owned and a lot more I know of owned by others, compared with a lot of IDx I have owned or known owned by others.

In the amateur market I think most people will happily lose out on the pretty paces in favour of soundness and rideability. I predict a resurgence of the "does what it says on the tin" horse market if people will breed them again.
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I know this was said by you a while back, but I agree nonetheless.

My new one is ID X unknown on his passport, but I would be very surprised to find any WB in there at all. He is a real old fashioned Irish type. Anyone in the know predicts ID X Connie, but he has everything I could wish for. His paces are actually good, he has (so far) been kind and sane, he can jump. He is also (so far) very laid back, easy going and simply great to have around.

I only wish he wasn't grey!!!

 

[ycbm]

He is a real old fashioned Irish type.

Absolutely, and all the better for it, imo. He's a really classy IDx of a type that's now difficult to find and worth his weight in gold (if he was bay ?).
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[Red-1]

Absolutely, and all the better for it, imo. He's a really classy IDx of a type that's now difficult to find and worth his weight in gold (if he was bay ?).
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Of the last 4 she has advertised, they have all been grey!!!

Pah!

 

[Pink Gorilla]

Does it make a difference on what breed the dam or site is? So if I was after a amateur competitive 50/50. Would the dam be better off being the RID of a TB? Just wondering, as I was initially after an ex racer to be a broodmare.

Also i suspect the warmbloods have more soundness issues due to the fact they are bred nowadays to have extremely elastic paces, probably too elastic for their welfare? Add to that the conditions WB’s are prone to, such as pssm and you’re likely to end up with a pretty delicate horse. Although my Irish Cob X Connemara has pssm, so he’s no better.

 

[Pink Gorilla]

Your friend may be interested in this website. It is is the Traditional Irish horse association website. It gives the contact details of breeders of the traditional Irish horse. Irish Draught, tb and connemara. https://www.traditionalirishhorse.com/

Wondering why King of Diamonds is not on here under the ‘traditional famous horses’ heading? ?