Irresponsible Owners

I'm Dun said:
They have attacked and killed people though. The people who want these dogs as protection/attack dogs arent the sort that commit mass shootings. They are petty criminals much more likely to shoot each other. They are very different to the people who go into schools to shoot everyone. Not saying they are better or worse, but they are different.
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Yes, and their dogs escape or get loose and injure totally innocent people and their pets. And it is going to get worse I fear.

It did seem briefly, after the XL ban, there were less attacks, but that seems to have been short lived. I read today about 3 policeman being attacked by a dog. The 22 yo owner is out on bail 😕🙄
 
Exasperated said:
If cane corsos are a concern, wait til you meet a Pakistani Mastiff - aka ‘bully kutta’ - size of a donkey, with cropped ears and obligatory spiked collar, weaponised horror breed according to Dogs Officer.
You’ll be shocked: think heavy Great Dane with full fighting dog attributes.
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It's not so much the breed that I was concerned about, but the number of big strong dogs that are in the ownership of owners that do not accept the responsibility of keeping everyone safe. In the hands of a decent owner this situation could and should have been avoided.
I am aware that there are breeds that need a really special type of owner to be safe. I only know of one Cane Corso personally and it is a fabulous dog that does the type of competitive protection work that requires an exceptional level of control. It's heelwork around distractions is stunning. It's clearly given the type of life that keeps it fulfilled.
Far more dog than I would be capable of handling. Ditto Malinois which is a breed I love to see work but would far exceed my skill set.
There are just not that many outstanding owners out there for the numbers of Cane Corso being bred if what we read is correct.
 
Smitty said:
Something else to worry about 🙁


Poor dog, owner and it's connections. I hope the CC and it's owner have been dealt with.
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Sadly not. The male owner removed himself and the dog from the scene leaving this poor woman alone with her critically injured dog.
The only thing she was able to provide was a description of the vehicle and the police are not interested as it was a dog on dog attack.
 
How hard is it to keep your dog in sight when you're in a busy park? The answer? Bloody hard. Apparently.

In two separate incidents today, I had to deal with dogs running up to the horses, and not in owner in sight.

I hold the dogs at bay with my psychotic two-headed alien routine, and eventually owners appear. They see the horses, then a look of total panic crosses their faces, and they start screaming, "Rex! Rex! [not actually the names] Rex, come here! Rex, COME HERE!!!!" And Rex is dancing about, quite confused, because owner's calling him, the horse smells and looks like prey but it's not running away and it has something loud and very angry on its back that makes a Dalek look like sweetness and light.

Then the owners are all like, "I'm sorry, I didn't see you." Well, it's a park in a bloody forest, and you were at least 20-30m away from your dog. Unless you have echo-location, like a dolphin or a bat, you're not gonna know what's coming around the damn corner, are you?
 
sarah.oxford said:
Sadly not. The male owner removed himself and the dog from the scene leaving this poor woman alone with her critically injured dog.
The only thing she was able to provide was a description of the vehicle and the police are not interested as it was a dog on dog attack.
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They usually do a runner. I thought the police should act in the case of a dog dangerously out of control?
 
Jenko109 said:
Discussing how we are going to kill something seems a risky topic of conversation...
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Ironically, I’m pretty sure it’s already been discussed in either this or the fatal dog attacks thread.

But the fact of the matter is that unless you’re very quick-thinking and have a weapon on you, you’re not going to be able to kill a dog like this.

It’s weird old sort of bravado to think you could through the magic of loving your dog or whatever.
 
I'm Dun said:
It took 19 on target bullets to kill the latest XL that tried to kill someone. Thats the sort of thing you see in films when they are trying to kill some ridiculous OTT monster. 19 bullets. No one should ever own a dog that it takes 19 bullets by a marksman to put down. An unarmed person has no chance sadly.
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Police marksmen would not be allowed expanding or hollow point ammunition in an urban environment, so their bullets just go straight through leaving a small hole.
When people shoot mammals from foxes upwards they use expanding which blows a huge hole in them. Hence it took so many, it would have to hit precisely the right bit.
 
It really shows that just introducing laws but not actually having a framework to properly enforce them is ineffective and actually has the potential to make a situation worse rather better doesn't it? Kneejerk, political reaction having breed bans when there was a perfectly good law in place for the last 30 years if only it had been enforced consistently...

There are many breeds that are unsuitable for the average home but can be managed well and thrive with a dedicated owner/handler. There are many owners who are either incapable or disinterested in doing any training or taking responsibility for their dog no matter what the breed is. A smaller or 'softer' breed is less likely to actually kill but that doesn't negate how serious or lifelong the injuries can be if it goes wrong. Obviously the injuries caused by a bigger, 'harder' breed are more likely to cause death or disablement but realistically can any government effectively ban all dogs over 20kgs for example?

Or would it be much more effective to hold all dog owners to a minimum standard of control and behaviour in public and enforce the dangerous dog act across the board? Unlikely but I can dream I suppose.
 
I don't think the law has been totally ineffective. I haven't seen a bully on the path I used to see them on when we walk on Sundays for several months. The last I remember was bordering on the 20 inches and even that one has disappeared.
.
 
cbmcts said:
It really shows that just introducing laws but not actually having a framework to properly enforce them is ineffective and actually has the potential to make a situation worse rather better doesn't it? Kneejerk, political reaction having breed bans when there was a perfectly good law in place for the last 30 years if only it had been enforced consistently...
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I do find it amusing that now that the XL bully ban has clearly not been as successful as the majority thought it would be, people have now taken to banging on about banning even more breeds instead of rethinking their approach. Funny that. Insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results, as they say.

I think Kendal Shepherd's on the right path (https://www.kendalshepherd.com/2021/01/12/teaching-dog-owners-new-tricks/ for anyone not familiar), and I know of at least one council that's subsiding dog training to reduce dangerous dog incidents (https://www.thedoghub.co.uk/camden-dog-project for anyone interested), but, again, these sorts of projects that could actually make a difference require money that's currently in short supply. And the longer the current situation goes on for, the more dogs end up in kennels, and the less money there is available.
 
bonny said:
I met a man recently with a massive merle XL bully that he admitted he got for breeding. He said the market is stronger than ever for them as is the potential to make a lot of money. He insisted his was a family dog and he had three children under 5 who lived with the dog who was the size of a small pony!
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Yup, they are being bred and fetching stupid money.
 
stangs said:
I do find it amusing that now that the XL bully ban has clearly not been as successful as the majority thought it would be, people have now taken to banging on about banning even more breeds instead of rethinking their approach. Funny that. Insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results, as they say.

I think Kendal Shepherd's on the right path (https://www.kendalshepherd.com/2021/01/12/teaching-dog-owners-new-tricks/ for anyone not familiar), and I know of at least one council that's subsiding dog training to reduce dangerous dog incidents (https://www.thedoghub.co.uk/camden-dog-project for anyone interested), but, again, these sorts of projects that could actually make a difference require money that's currently in short supply. And the longer the current situation goes on for, the more dogs end up in kennels, and the less money there is available.
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Its not worked because its not enforced.

You can train some of these dogs as much as you want, it won't change the fact that there is something screwed up in the breeding of them and it makes them lethal..
 
Smitty said:
How exactly would you go about this?
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Quite honestly, although my OH is normally very calm, had he been with me when the lab pinned Goose the other week, I think there would have been size 13s flying. As it was, I had to physically remove my dog from under the lab as the owners stood watching at a distance. I didn’t hesitate to run over. I think I would have got myself into serious trouble had it been a dog that would go for a person.
I'm Dun said:
Yup, they are being bred and fetching stupid money.
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I read about a bunch of puppies and adults being seized recently, possibly on here? It’s just gone underground.

Re breed, a bloke in a nearby park was approached by 2 barking beagles and kicked one full in the face. The owner was done for having dogs out of control. Bloke said he’s previously been bitten by another dog and was scared. The owner was very upset (then train your dogs not to pelt up to people doing the beagle noise, it’s quite intimidating!) but entirely his fault. Not sure he’d have kicked an xl in the face. 💁‍♀️
 
I'm Dun said:
Its not worked because its not enforced.

You can train some of these dogs as much as you want, it won't change the fact that there is something screwed up in the breeding of them and it makes them lethal..
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And are the owners who get these dogs to protect their drug dealing businesses likely to be interested in subsidised dog training anyway?
It's the screwed up owners that are the problem as much as the dogs
It's hard to legislate for human greed and stupidity but taking away their weapons be it XLBs or some other massive killer is an obvious place to start
 
Cinnamontoast said:
Quite honestly, although my OH is normally very calm, had he been with me when the lab pinned Goose the other week, I think there would have been size 13s flying. As it was, I had to physically remove my dog from under the lab as the owners stood watching at a distance. I didn’t hesitate to run over. I think I would have got myself into serious trouble had it been a dog that would go for a person.
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I'm fairly fit and strong, knackered physically but I always score really high on strength tests, and it felt like a fight for his life getting the lab off my whippet. If it had redirected onto me I'd had stood no chance. You just don't think in the moment though.
 
maisie06 said:
Slip lead around it neck and throttle the thing, or a brick smashed over it's head....I know of a pensioner who walks her dog and carries a hammer in her bag because she's so scared of her little dog being attacked.
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Not to make light of an emotive topic, but do you carry bricks with you on your walks or do you just live in an area where spare bricks are conveniently lying around to use for dog-killing?
 
maisie06 said:
Slip lead around it neck and throttle the thing, or a brick smashed over it's head....I know of a pensioner who walks her dog and carries a hammer in her bag because she's so scared of her little dog being attacked.
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She's significantly more likely to harm herself or her own dog with that than to inflict any impactful injury on a dog like an XL.

It's been said before many many times on this and the other thread but bears repeating (not at you maisie06! Just generally): these sorts of dogs have a huge pain tolerance or are even activated by pain; hit it, kick it or wallop it with a brick and there's a good chance it'll grip harder. The only thing that is going to give you a chance is a slip lead under the neck, end through the handle, as high on the neck as you can, and lift until you take its air away. You can get 4mm paracord slip leads that fold up to nothing in your pocket.
 
I’m quite paranoid about mine being attacked, I tend to associate only with dogs we know and mostly avoid others. Inevitably, as we walk in public areas, we’ve come across the odd not very sociable dog, but it’s fortunately extremely rare. Hangover from having Zak, in part, we had to remove him on many occasions, so I’m well aware of the potential for problems. Saying that, it would never cross my mind to carry a weapon, plus it’s obviously an offence.
 
Stabbing something fatally is hard. It's also not so "instant" but you can create major damage or blood loss if you do it right. IF you can do it right on100lb dog that's also trying to kill you.

You also have to hit with a lot of force and a fair amount of accuracy if you're trying to kill with blunt force trauma.

Even if you're able to get a dog on a slip lead, do you think it's easy to choke out 100lbs (or less, or more) of muscular, strong, and aggressive dog?

No shoe and no foot is going to stop some dogs.

If you do get bit in the process and say, your arm is crushed, can you function well when in pain?

So there's a lot to consider, but hopefully you'll never have to. It's easy to talk about it or think that adrenaline will help you out, but that dog is going to have adrenaline too.

It's never a bad idea to have a plan, and in some cases, some form of defense is better than none. Just remain sensible and strategic and watch the bravado.

I get that the easiest thing is to ban the thing. The "thing" being a dog in this case. However, that's not going to stop the lowlife criminals, for the most part, but it will stop some.

While I do think that there is a dog problem that is associated with certain breeds and types, there's also a huge people problem. The latter is harder to deal with, but will forever perpetuate if handled incorrectly.
 
I can only speak for myself when it comes to dealing with dog fights/attacks or dogs that make me feel uneasy and most of it is prevention rather reaction when you think about it. If I see a dog that I don't like the look of because of its body language or behaviours, I remove my dogs and me from the vicinity or put myself between them and my dogs if it's a more confined area like a path and get away sooner rather than later. The one dog that goes off lead has a great recall but is also excellent at reading other dogs, there's a few dogs that we see regularly where he just swerves them and comes straight back to me. They are known locally for flattening/being aggressive to other dogs. He's the one that we use a stooge dog in training and to test rescues as he's totally unthreatening and I will also use him to divert the over friendly types that just barrel over to you too. I have picked up smaller dogs and dropped them over a fence into a garden when I've seen something approaching aggressively but it's much easier to avoid if possible.

I've had to break up a fair few fights over the years but only a couple of attacks which the worst one was very luckily for me an Akita that was only dog aggressive. The Akita, who had killed a couple of dogs locally, got off it's property and nailed my 7kg terrier. It wasn't a frenzied attack but the big dog was standing over mine just biting her (mine ended up with 11 deep puncture wounds on her back, I can still hear her screaming as I ran over) and completely without thinking I got the dog by the scruff of the neck and was kicking it and used my knees to move it and leaned over and grabbed my dog. The Akita did grab my arm and even through a big coat and jumper held hard enough to crush my watch and bruise me quite badly but thank god for bite inhibition, did let go once she realised it was a human not animal she had. What was terrifying was how calm she was all the way through an attack that could easily have ended with my dog dying slowly as did happen a few months later to a woman's spaniel. She had small children with her and couldn't be as stupid as I was. The other was 2 adult male rottweilers kicking off at each at training and one handler dropped the lead and they both really went for it. Someone else got the dropped lead but one dog had the other by the neck and more damage was being done by trying to drag him off. There was a fire extinguisher on the wall and I got it - thinking back, I probably intended to use it as a club as a kneejerk reaction - instead I discharged in the face of the aggressor to make him let go. In that case it only worked because there were enough strong people to keep the dogs seperate afterwards as both would have tried to keep the fight going. There is no way I could have dealt with that solo, I doubt that many could have even though most of us would probably try and lose badly if the aggressor turned on us.

Any 'noise and slobber' handbag type fights where there is no red mist, want to kill going on are broken up with shouting and legs (never hands!) until they decide to pack it in, then collars are grabbed to keep them seperate until they calm down.

I consider myself fairly competent and confident in dealing with and handling large dogs that I often don't know well but am also well aware that if I was actually attacked, I wouldn't fare any better than anyone else. All you can do is try to avoid being put in that situation. Is that right or fair? No . Will it always work? No, you could just be really unlucky. The best way to keep your dogs safe is to have a rock solid recall, always be aware of what's going around you so you can get yourselves out of Dodge in time.

But society won't solve this issue while we just concentrate on certain 'devil' breeds as they are always replaced by another. Yes maybe action does to be taken against some especially unstable types but to be fair, any breed deteriorates when it's only bred for a single trait, be it looks or (lack of) temperament. It really needs a grass roots change in the culture of dog ownership and responsibility. If all that low level, anti social behaviour like not picking up poo, having your dog bothering others off lead in lead only areas, in play areas when they are not meant to be, off lead or on flexis on the road, leaving dogs to bark or howl for hours were targeted, it would admittedly slowly improve human and as a result, dog behaviour. I think the subsidised training mentioned above is a fantastic idea. It is actually scary how many people do not realise that dogs don't come ready trained and don't recognise the slide to dangerous behaviour until it's too late. So much problematic behaviour could be avoided if there was a culture or expectation that training (not just dogs if you ask me but lets not go there!) was required and just a normal part of owning a dog.
 
cbmcts said:
But society won't solve this issue while we just concentrate on certain 'devil' breeds as they are always replaced by another. Yes maybe action does to be taken against some especially unstable types but to be fair, any breed deteriorates when it's only bred for a single trait, be it looks or (lack of) temperament. It really needs a grass roots change in the culture of dog ownership and responsibility. If all that low level, anti social behaviour like not picking up poo, having your dog bothering others off lead in lead only areas, in play areas when they are not meant to be, off lead or on flexis on the road, leaving dogs to bark or howl for hours were targeted, it would admittedly slowly improve human and as a result, dog behaviour. I think the subsidised training mentioned above is a fantastic idea. It is actually scary how many people do not realise that dogs don't come ready trained and don't recognise the slide to dangerous behaviour until it's too late. So much problematic behaviour could be avoided if there was a culture or expectation that training (not just dogs if you ask me but lets not go there!) was required and just a normal part of owning a dog.
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When I got Floyd as a tiny puppy he was the easiest, sweetest thing, he had one accident in the house in his life and was just an amenable easy going boy. My ex sat me down a couple of days in and suggested we return him to the breeder. He said he didn't even know his name and commands properly and he thought he was aggressive. Whippet puppies are know for their mad half hour where they run round biting things. He was managed by me and want even really an issue.

People who don't grow up with dogs don't have any frame of reference. I can laugh about it now but at the time I was lost for words.
 
Spring is here, the birds are chirping, the buds are peeping through, and on AAD, it's time to return to the well-worn road of theoretically stabbing very large, muscular dogs with very small knives :)

Anyhoo, walking on a narrow path this morning and could see another dog coming, went up a bank and down the other side a bit, three yummy mummies with coffee and an offleash boxer appear, boxer follows us up the bank as one of them ineffectually calls its' name and I call, 'YEAH, NO'. I just let my dog bark, this time. If you let your dog ignore you and disappear over the top of a bank out of sight, not knowing what is on the other side, there may be unpleasant consequences that are worse than being barked at.
 
Rather different to an XL bully , I was walking on the pavement approaching someone with his terrier on lead , mine were all on lead, and he dropped the dogs lead and it went after mine, I’m not young and with my 3 non aggressive dogs trying to get away from this terrier I realised that I wasn’t agile enough to get hold of it. I did manage to land one kick and it paused so owner managed to get hold of the lead and dragged it away. He did apologise but if you have a dog that doesn’t like others why wouldn’t you make doubly sure that you have a good grip on the lead… luckily none of mine got bitten but it’s really upset my lurcher as he is a wimp anyway..
 
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