Is anyone else not entirely convinced by the Horse Hoarders plight?

Patterdale said:
Fiona agree with that sadly.


Michelle may be his guardian angel, but may not. My husbands first comment when she was selling his horses etc 'Crikey, she's no fool. Bet she won't be getting misty eyed when she's totting up the livery bill.'

But then again he's a cynic! :)
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I can see where he is coming from though. Michelle strikes me as a woman who has her head screwed on.
 
I didn't watch but have gleaned enough from posts in various places. The horses need rehomed. That's it really. Why fund what he can't take care of because it makes it easier for him? Breeding needs to stop and the horses rehomed.

This man needs to help himself but that's only if he wants to. He has that choice. If mentally he can't make choices for himself then he needs to be taken for help. However, the horses have no choices. So no, I also would not fund and charity that means he gets to keep his animals. How is that helping. The one clip I saw was of horses living in crap conditions. I'm not funding that crap.

If any of you read COTH, why don't you hop on over to the Breeding section. If you have a spare day of reading catch up on the Jill Burnell thread. A breeder of very nice horses living in squalid conditions. She herself is living illegally in squalid conditions. Nobody in their right mind would give money to this woman to keep going. What they have done is set up a fundraiser to help the horses which are being confiscated. 4 so far. Also the money will be used to help mare owners get money back from Jill's shady business dealings. But not a cent of that money will be used to help that woman to keep her horses. No way and nobody would even think of donating. Check out the ratemyhorsepro website and see the pictures.

Now if this man was going to give up his horses to be rehomed, then yes a charity to help the horses would be something I'd contribute to willingly. But letting people keep this situation going, nope no way. There's help and then there's enabling. I'm not enabling this person so the sad story continues.

Terri
 
Patterdale said:
Rebelrebel totally agree with that last statement (can't quote though).
My dads great uncle lived like that, just 'opting out' a bit as you put it. He was totally happy and relaxed with life.
Can't speculate on Clwyd's mental state as I don't know him but who's to say he's not choosing this lifestyle himself?
The bath for instance, he probably preferred to do it the eccentric way. I'm sure that Michelle would have let him use her shower or something if he'd wanted!
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I did wonder how much of the "outdoor bath" scene was for the cameras. Perhaps even the film-makers' idea? Nothing after all is quite what it seems on tv, almost everything's edited, contrived or set up.

I felt the bath scene was great entertainment, with Clwyd enjoying himself and acting up for his audience.

I think when we watch this type of thing, we have to remember we're being manipulated and being carefully shown only the "facts" the film-makers want us to see.
 
Whilst I sympathise with his obvious mental health issues,I also felt the programme was a little one sided.

Could have done with being longer to give a bit more of the story. Couldn't really make my mind up either way to be honest!
 
patterdale glad I didn't dream that! nobody seems to have noticed that Michelle is not doing it completely out of the goodness of her heart ...she's actually charging livery....no wonder people cant find details of what is for sale!
 
I don't think he has mental health issues. He seems to be a stubborn old man who has let his herd get out of hand and won't admit it (well, he'd be admitting he was wrong) and certainly won't do what anyone else tells him, he'll just dig his heels in further. I also expect he may be enjoying his non-conforming lifestyle-two fingers up to society etc. I doubt very much anyone will ever change him but if people want to hand over their hard-earned, that's their prerogative. At least the horses will get something out of it.
 
Whatever the rights and wrongs of this situation (and I'm not going there!:D), we can be sure of one thing; from here on in both Clwyd's and Michelle's activities will be under a microscope.

Personally, I would not wish that on my worst enemy!

Clwyd obviously cares deeply for his horses and why shouldn't he keep them (but, preferably not breed) for as long as he is able to care for them?

Assuming we are all horse lovers here, how many would be happy to have their horses forcibly removed from them, even though they could still care for them, because society had decided they'd got a bit dotty in their old age?

As for the prices being asked by Michelle for her horses, they do not seem out of line to those sought by the WHW in a similar case. To many, price equals value -- which can be very sad for the animal as I know to my cost.

As I read it, donations are being directed to a separate charity which specialises in supporting worthy causes, so there is no danger of them being frittered away by Clwyd or Michelle. But I am sure someone will be along in a moment to say it really ought to be given to real professional carers who will know exactly what to do with it, like the RSPCA. Apparently, they can't be scrutinised or criticised at all so that would be an end to the problem.:)
 
but dryrot he can't care for them....can't worm them, geldthem and I bet they've not been vaccinated. there's an appeal on facebook for a 'fa rrier with a heart' so that tells me he cant care for them properly. I'd have no issues if he lived a reculsive lifestyle and cared properly for his horses but he can't and so now needs handouts.
 
Yeah, handouts because he loves his horses. My oh my this is hypocritical. Shall we revisit the benefits thread where all people on benefits were scum of the earth, who cares you fell on hard times, you don't deserve anything that you love. But show this guy on TV and wow people have a heart.

Terri
 
Much as i feel a bit sorry for the guy, i'm sure if he has help this year, colts are all gelded etc. He'll still end up with at least one stallion to cover the mares next year which will lead to more colts and the vicious circle starts all over again. Hoarders will never stick to just a few animals unfortunately.
 
Equilibrium Ireland said:
Yeah, handouts because he loves his horses. My oh my this is hypocritical. Shall we revisit the benefits thread where all people on benefits were scum of the earth, who cares you fell on hard times, you don't deserve anything that you love. But show this guy on TV and wow people have a heart.

Terri
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I agree. I do have sympathy with the man, but he has nowhere to keep horses and no funds for their care. Who knows when he'll be moved on from the land he squats on? What happens to his horses then?

As you say, people who keep a horse (never mind many!) which they clearly can't afford and allow to suffer as a consequence usually get little sympathy here. Neither do the travellers who squat on other peoples' land.

But hey, this man's a tv celebrity!
 
horsesatemychristmasmoney said:
but dryrot he can't care for them....can't worm them, geldthem and I bet they've not been vaccinated. there's an appeal on facebook for a 'fa rrier with a heart' so that tells me he cant care for them properly. I'd have no issues if he lived a reculsive lifestyle and cared properly for his horses but he can't and so now needs handouts.
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I'm guessing a "farrier with a heart" is one who will treat all his semi-feral horses' feet for free then?
 
The Facebook page is astonishing. No criticism of Clwyd allowed, all singing his praises as if he's a sort of horse guru. Some posts saying how much better cared for his horses are than conventional horse owners' horses. There's talk of fences on his squat so that he can keep his horses, and concern expressed that the large donations coming in mustn't effect his benefits.

He is fast becoming a folk hero.

The trouble with campaigns such as this which are based on an emotional reaction and sentiment is that they burn out quite quickly and may not address the long-term issues.
 
Patterdale said:
Rebelrebel totally agree with that last statement (can't quote though).
My dads great uncle lived like that, just 'opting out' a bit as you put it. He was totally happy and relaxed with life.
Can't speculate on Clwyd's mental state as I don't know him but who's to say he's not choosing this lifestyle himself?
The bath for instance, he probably preferred to do it the eccentric way. I'm sure that Michelle would have let him use her shower or something if he'd wanted!
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My mother lives a little like this too, she is intelligent, articulate and wealthy (as in has enough money to go and buy a small house outright!), yet she chooses to live in a static caravan behind her friend's indoor school. Lots of people who know of her but don't know her ask me why she is there. I don't have the answer and I never will, I know one thing though, if my mother makes her choice nobody changes her mind.

I didn't watch the show because it would not have been a balanced view, but from what I have heard the chap needs his psychological issues sorting out first and foremost.
 
FionaM12 said:
The Facebook page is astonishing. No criticism of Clwyd allowed, all singing his praises as if he's a sort of horse guru. Some posts saying how much better cared for his horses are than conventional horse owners' horses. There's talk of fences on his squat so that he can keep his horses, and concern expressed that the large donations coming in mustn't effect his benefits.

He is fast becoming a folk hero.

.
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oh......my........lord!!!
 
To those who are saying he is 'obviously mentaly ill'. There are two pieces of legislation which will be used to look at his mental state. The Mental Capacity Act and The Mental Health Act. For him to be 'treated' against his will, he will have to be shown to be suffering from 'Disease of the mind' and to be a danger to himself or others. For him to be deemed incapable of making decisions about specific parts of his life, he would have to be shown to be incapable of understanding the consequences of the decisions he is making. The law states that there is a presumption of capacity to make decisions, unless it can be demonstrated that there is a lack of capcity. Just because people make unwise decisions doesn't mean that they don't have the capacity to make the decision. Some people would think that I was unwise to pay for my horse to have new shoes, when my work shoes coud do with replacing! :p :D
 
YorksG said:
To those who are saying he is 'obviously mentaly ill'. There are two pieces of legislation which will be used to look at his mental state. The Mental Capacity Act and The Mental Health Act. For him to be 'treated' against his will, he will have to be shown to be suffering from 'Disease of the mind' and to be a danger to himself or others. For him to be deemed incapable of making decisions about specific parts of his life, he would have to be shown to be incapable of understanding the consequences of the decisions he is making. The law states that there is a presumption of capacity to make decisions, unless it can be demonstrated that there is a lack of capcity. Just because people make unwise decisions doesn't mean that they don't have the capacity to make the decision. Some people would think that I was unwise to pay for my horse to have new shoes, when my work shoes coud do with replacing! :p :D
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I don't think it's "obvious" he has mental health problems. I certainly doubt he's ill enough to be treated against his will or would accept treatment voluntarily if offered.

I respect his choice to lead an unconventional life, but not to keep animals which he cannot afford to properly care for.
 
YorksG said:
Just because people make unwise decisions doesn't mean that they don't have the capacity to make the decision. Some people would think that I was unwise to pay for my horse to have new shoes, when my work shoes coud do with replacing! :p :D
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Hence I chose my words carefully! As I said he has psychological issues which is not always the same as mental illness ;)
 
FionaM12 said:
I don't think it's "obvious" he has mental health problems. I certainly doubt he's ill enough to be treated against his will or would accept treatment voluntarily if offered.

I respect his choice to lead an unconventional life, but not to keep animals which he cannot afford to properly care for.
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And so like anyone else who make an unwise decision, he will be subject to whatever the legal consequences are.

Baggybreeches said:
Hence I chose my words carefully! As I said he has psychological issues which is not always the same as mental illness ;)
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He may have, but unless he chooses to 'have the psychological issues sorted', they will remain as they are, no one can force people to have treatment, unless they fit within the mental health act. :)
 
there's a difference between him waiting help/living life as he sees fit and inflicting a basics lifestyle on horses who don't have a choice. that's my issue I'm afraid
 
This completely disgusts me there are so many people who have "bonds" with their horses and have to sell them for financial reasons and these are nice decent people too and no-one sets up a charity to help them.

This man should be satisfied with just one or two horses that he can afford to care for and have the time and money to do so properly just like most people who on here who have horses. As he does not own the property he is at risk of being evcited at any point and then how will he cope with finding somewhere else to keep large numbers of horses. Ideally he needs to get the numbers down to a couple of quiet geldings so he can't accidently breed any more.

It is ridiculous people donating to help it will just encourage him to continue living his life in the same way and it indicates that it is acceptable, if people want to give to charity to help horses then why not give to one of the horse charities such as redwings or WHW.
 
Of course one has 'sympathy' but one also has to consider the greater good. Take away all his horses -> depression + suicidal ideation -> Section 2 -> maybe a course in ECT will get rid of those hoarding tendencies as well, who knows? -> total societal conformity. No relatives? Excellent. Horses happy, land owner happy, RSPCA happy. Problem solved!

Seriously, though, I agree that if he could be persuaded (somehow!) to be happy with a handful of non-breeding horses, that would be the best solution.
 
On the registered charity question, it is relatively simple to set up a charity. You only have to show that you have or will receive donations of at least £5k.

However, then you have all the reporting obligations and tax record (when people check the Gift Aid box it is notified to HMRC) which could be a little awkward when you claim that you havent received anything ... or you are found to be selling off your "donations" ...

Incidentally, there would need to be a charitable cause which is fairly easy to draft for animal type charities.
 
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