Is anyone having their say...adding any input to the new dog....

[MurphysMinder]

Do you lot never sleep!
Re the neighbour with the dogues, the bitch had 10 pups. I think about half sold for £1000 then she had to reduce the price to shift the last few. However it was obviously successful enough for her to keep a bitch from the litter which she also plans to breed from.

Cayla's point re breeders keeping pups till 6 months, apart from the space issue there is the matter of socialisation. I do try and take my pups out for little drives in the car, and maybe a visit to the local school, being carried of course, before they go at 8 weeks. But with a breed like a GSD it would not be easy to keep doing this until 6 months, so anyone having a pup at 6 months would have a less than perfectly socialised pup. I always put an endorsement on my litters that they can't be bred from, and if people did wish to breed from them they would have to carry out necessary tests, and the dog would of course have to be of good enough quality.
When I was very young my mum did have about 20 GSDs, of those I suppose around half a dozen were of breeding age, then there were a couple of stud dogs, the oldies, and the youngsters. However she soon reduced down to far few numbers as she felt she wasn't getting the same pleasure out of the dogs. As to having more than one litter at the same time, the closest I have ever been to that was one litter in October and one in January. This was because the first bitch was mated and the second bitch came into season for the first time at 3 years old, and the vet said to mate her as her pattern was so erratic (or non existent). I kept some of the first litter until after Christmas so they had only just gone when no 2 whelped, so I had 16 weeks of pups. Okay it was great fun, but totally exhausting, and I would never do it again!

 

[Vizslak]

Yes I agree MM, its not plausible to keep them all to 6 months! If that in Caylas world came true

there would of course be a very few that would do their best to still have well rounded pups at 6 months old, the rest would be very wild very untrainable and highly unsuitable for anyone as pets! The R endorsements work nicely when people bother to use them, I have also with the parsons contracted 2 pups in the past to be neutered/spayed at 6 months. With the parsons there is the fear that they would just be used to mate with scruffy little unregistered jacks (not that there is anything wrong with JR's but you know what I mean) Both owners have stuck to this, but then there is alot to be said for being very fussy about owners in the first place! Mine are also all contracted to NEVER be sold or gifted to a 3rd party without my prior consent...as yet no *touches wood* I have had no dogs back that I've needed to find homes for and know with all the homes I picked it would be in truely exceptional circumstances that this would ever happen.

 

[Vizslak]

You know, thinking about it, theres loads of great ideas but unfortunately most need all our breeders to be conscientious enough to enforce them along with the KC. What we really need is it being made LAW like in sweden...so lets skip past Batesy and the KC and take our AAD fight straight to downing street!

ETA- I'm sure Cayla could give Mr Brown a run for his money....or at least send him running!

 

[Patches]

[ QUOTE ]
Nope a breeder would not....it makes litle financial sense and would inter fear with future space/breeding.......but if compulsary insurance is in place and your company has no proof via the vet that the dog has been done(via unique chip number) which should also be compulsary, then insurance should be void from then on.....and if u cannot produce insurance like u can with a car then u should be in big trouble like u can with a car.

Or bit like the Swedish check system the chip should checked and maybe it should come up as NOT TO BE BRED FROM BREEDER RESTRICTION.

[/ QUOTE ]

All of this is good.....BUT...it won't work for the backyard breeders, the very type we all want to see acting more responsibly. They won't be registering pups, or doing any form of health check/testing so who's going to read the chip to say it's a dog not to be bred from? Compulsory insurance will also fail for some people, much as it does for those who never bother to insure their vehicles.

It's great in theory, but would be nigh on impossible to enforce.

 

[FrodoBeutlin]

Oh Cayla, I would kill for a CKCS -- I *love* them...

As for popular breeds, German Shepherds are ubiquitous and so are retrievers... and of course Italian breeds such as Maremma shepherd dogs, spinoni, etc (conversely, Italian greyhounds are so rare, there are only 186 registered animals in the whole of Italy!)

If I remember correctly, CKCS were recognised as a breed by the ENCI (Italian version of the KC) relatively recently (late 1980s? possibly?) which is why they are still quite rare.

 

[CAYLA]

[ QUOTE ]
You know, thinking about it, theres loads of great ideas but unfortunately most need all our breeders to be conscientious enough to enforce them along with the KC. What we really need is it being made LAW like in sweden...so lets skip past Batesy and the KC and take our AAD fight straight to downing street!

ETA- I'm sure Cayla could give Mr Brown a run for his money....or at least send him running!

[/ QUOTE ]

Lol Temski u kill me.....and im glad as a breeder u can take me with a pinch of salt not many can

but u are like MM and FLH one of the responsibles

cayla *chokes* typing that bit....it took courage u know

I also applaud u to the highest of my powers(im making these words up)

for being one of the first breeders to admit profit is made

u are unique

one of a kind

 

[Vizslak]

FB- how do the ENCI handle breeding and registration? Better then over here?

 

[CAYLA]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Nope a breeder would not....it makes litle financial sense and would inter fear with future space/breeding.......but if compulsary insurance is in place and your company has no proof via the vet that the dog has been done(via unique chip number) which should also be compulsary, then insurance should be void from then on.....and if u cannot produce insurance like u can with a car then u should be in big trouble like u can with a car.

Or bit like the Swedish check system the chip should checked and maybe it should come up as NOT TO BE BRED FROM BREEDER RESTRICTION.

[/ QUOTE ]

All of this is good.....BUT...it won't work for the backyard breeders, the very type we all want to see acting more responsibly. They won't be registering pups, or doing any form of health check/testing so who's going to read the chip to say it's a dog not to be bred from? Compulsory insurance will also fail for some people, much as it does for those who never bother to insure their vehicles.

It's great in theory, but would be nigh on impossible to enforce.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well a puppy will end up at the vet at some stage.....maybe it should be compulsary for the vet to scan.....if no chip shows then the purchaser should be fined and the dog impounded until they can give info as to where the dog was purchased, this may deter people going down the back street breeder route and if the bsb is found they should be banned from keeping animals and fined to the hilt.
Maybe all the rules and regs should be aimed at the purchaser to make sure they are responsible and buy puppies from a registered and aproved source

NEXT

 

[CAYLA]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you lot never sleep!
Re the neighbour with the dogues, the bitch had 10 pups. I think about half sold for £1000 then she had to reduce the price to shift the last few. However it was obviously successful enough for her to keep a bitch from the litter which she also plans to breed from.

Cayla's point re breeders keeping pups till 6 months, apart from the space issue there is the matter of socialisation. I do try and take my pups out for little drives in the car, and maybe a visit to the local school, being carried of course, before they go at 8 weeks. But with a breed like a GSD it would not be easy to keep doing this until 6 months, so anyone having a pup at 6 months would have a less than perfectly socialised pup. I always put an endorsement on my litters that they can't be bred from, and if people did wish to breed from them they would have to carry out necessary tests, and the dog would of course have to be of good enough quality.
When I was very young my mum did have about 20 GSDs, of those I suppose around half a dozen were of breeding age, then there were a couple of stud dogs, the oldies, and the youngsters. However she soon reduced down to far few numbers as she felt she wasn't getting the same pleasure out of the dogs. As to having more than one litter at the same time, the closest I have ever been to that was one litter in October and one in January. This was because the first bitch was mated and the second bitch came into season for the first time at 3 years old, and the vet said to mate her as her pattern was so erratic (or non existent). I kept some of the first litter until after Christmas so they had only just gone when no 2 whelped, so I had 16 weeks of pups. Okay it was great fun, but totally exhausting, and I would never do it again!

[/ QUOTE ]

Lol.....I slept for approx 2 hours and im off to bed now

We had the same mam

my mam had about 20 at the same time she did show them and more so obedience work, and kept both litters, I think she sold about 5 in total and kept the rest and one of those 5 returned when they went to live in another country and he stayed with us for the rest of his days

it was great fun for us kids *mam of course will burn in hell* for breeding

thats my joke to her these days........she said the rescue is for her sins

 

[Vizslak]

Thats a really good idea Cayla, more responsibility should be given to the purchaser and it would be far easier to poilce properly. People won't want to buy or 'rescue' as some of them put it from these puppy farmers and BYB's if they will get in trouble and fined for doing so. I like it, good one!

 

[CAYLA]

[ QUOTE ]
Thats a really good idea Cayla, more responsibility should be given to the purchaser and it would be far easier to poilce properly. People won't want to buy or 'rescue' as some of them put it from these puppy farmers and BYB's if they will get in trouble and fined for doing so. I like it, good one!

[/ QUOTE ]

It's that patches she is forcing me to think of new ways to punish the damned

and I wanted to make the post reply jump to 100

It was a good idea if I do say so me self

 

[FinnishLapphund]

Woohoo!

Finally I've found someone on HHO that also enjoys dog shows.

 

[Vizslak]

Tis a long old post for AAD!
Naughty patches making Cayla stray out of her 'burn all breeders' way of thinking

I spat coffee over my keyboard when reading your praising to your highest powers comments

I always knew you had super powers or something!

 

[Vizslak]

[ QUOTE ]
Woohoo!

Finally I've found someone on HHO that also enjoys dog shows.

[/ QUOTE ]

I shock myself showing, when I started I was very sceptical and just wanted to get placed somewhere near the big boys and hopefully enjoy the day with my dog, now after having won more than I ever expected with Flora right from the start, I just want to be first all the time!

I've actually found a competitive streak!

 

[Patches]

LOL @ you two!

Ok....is there not a risk that some "scutty" (oh how I love that word) purchasers will then opt to not vaccinate, castrate etc for fear of taking their backstreet pup to the vet when they don't have all the legitimate paperwork? Would it therefore lead to more abandoned dogs when the "scutty" owner ends up dumping the dog if it needs veterinary attention, before they'd go and worry about the fine as well as the vet fees?

Ultimately, it's the animals who might be compromised if people would have a fear of going to the vet with them.

On the other hand, it's the animals who would benefit widely IF there was a foolproof way of enforcing/regulating breeding and all breeders.

 

[Vizslak]

Yea your right, I guess there would always be a few who would still breed and buy the pups but I do think that 90% of buyers if not more would not buy a puppy outside of the law if it was law. Most people aren't going to want to break the law just for the sake of it. I don't think....or am I giving Joe public too much credit again?!

 

[FinnishLapphund]

Thank you for the responsible compliment and I have an idea, as I recall, you have said that you chip mark your rescues with two chips, one with the address to your rescue and one will have the address to its new owner?

Now personally I'm not that fond of chip marking since it isn't visible on the outside if the dog is marked or not (you have to have a scanner to check and find the chip mark) but (hopefully) not many buyers would buy a puppy without it having had its puppy vet check before leaving the breeder, so how about a law saying that all breeders must ID mark their puppies when doing the vet check?

Then should it not be possible to store the information about who owned the puppy, when it was at the vets for its puppy vet check = the breeder would be traceable.


Not much perhaps but it would be somewhere to start.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Mine are chipped, tattooed and DNA'd, as is normal in the Fatherland

- B was scanned for his chip for ID purposes at a trial last year and it was up near his ear

Can just about make out the tattoo.

 

[Vizslak]

[ QUOTE ]
Mine are chipped, tattooed and DNA'd, as is normal in the Fatherland

- B was scanned for his chip for ID purposes at a trial last year and it was up near his ear

Can just about make out the tattoo.

[/ QUOTE ]

Milo's is under his armpit

 

[MurphysMinder]

Mine are tattooed but not chipped, because I have heard stories of chips migrating. Also we found a dog and dog warden scanned it but found no chip, but when owners were traced turned out he was chipped. My thinking with tattoos is that whilst sometimes they are not totally clear as the dog gets older, if I lose a dog I would contact NDTR, so if anyone finds a dog and also contacts NDTR with even part of the number hopefully the 2 would be connected by the powers that be.
I notice the KC are now (or shortly) stating that all dogs must be identified by chip or tattoo before health tests.at last! my vet does check tattoos, but that is possibly because there was a breeder travelling quite a distance to allegedly bring dogs for hip x ray who, shall we say, weren't exactly who they were supposed to be

 

[Vizslak]

[ QUOTE ]
Mine are tattooed but not chipped, because I have heard stories of chips migrating. Also we found a dog and dog warden scanned it but found no chip, but when owners were traced turned out he was chipped. My thinking with tattoos is that whilst sometimes they are not totally clear as the dog gets older, if I lose a dog I would contact NDTR, so if anyone finds a dog and also contacts NDTR with even part of the number hopefully the 2 would be connected by the powers that be.
I notice the KC are now (or shortly) stating that all dogs must be identified by chip or tattoo before health tests.at last! my vet does check tattoos, but that is possibly because there was a breeder travelling quite a distance to allegedly bring dogs for hip x ray who, shall we say, weren't exactly who they were supposed to be

[/ QUOTE ]

The needing chip before health testing has come in this month MM. Floras chip will have to be scanned and recorded on the paperwork sent to the BVA when she has her hips done next week.

 

[FinnishLapphund]

Now or shortly!



***FinnishLapphund gets the image of lots of

sitting around a fire, inside a cave making the decisions of the Kennel Club.***



*sigh* I have suspected by previous replies since I became a member on HHO, that your KC are quite different than SKK but still...

Personally I prefer the tattoo too, even if it fades a little, it is still usually easily detected that they are marked.

 

[MurphysMinder]

Your not far wrong about the cavemen Finny. The KC is full of old codgers, its not all that long ago that they were a "gentleman only" club.

 

[FestiveSpirit]

[ QUOTE ]


***FinnishLapphund gets the image of lots of

sitting around a fire, inside a cave making the decisions of the Kennel Club.***

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh I dont think they are that advanced FinnishLappund

Besides, the Kennel Club are incapable of making a decision

 

[FrodoBeutlin]

[ QUOTE ]
FB- how do the ENCI handle breeding and registration? Better then over here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Uhm, I am not quite sure how it works in the UK, but in Italy both parents must be registered with the ENCI, and the breeder must also be registered. Once the mating has taken place you have to declare it (with date, microchip no. of both parents, registration no. of both parents, and lots of other details such as whether it was A.I. or natural or whatever), and you then have to declare the birth of the litter within 25 days of the birth, which is fairly cheap (I think around £10). Then you have to register each puppy with the ENCI, which is more expensive (£10 or £15, can't remember, per puppy). An ENCI representative will also come to see the litter and sometimes they will also advise on the quality of the litter (I know this because when they went to see Peanuts' litter they were adamant that Peanuts should be shown). The visit can happen anytime within the first 60 days. Ah, you also have to pay membership every year (£50) while if you want your own prefix you have to pay a one-off sum of over £600 -- very expensive! (and there are some requirements, I think you must have produced at least 4 litters from 2 different bitches of the same breed... but I am not sure as I have never really looked into it).

So it is not expensive to register a litter with the ENCI. Unfortunately you can frequently find ads on the Internet or on papers which state 'pure-bred puppies for sale, 500 euros without pedigree, 750 if you want the pedigree' -- as if it cost 250 euros to register a puppy!! Unfortunately there will always be people who fall for that (reasoning along the lines of 'the actual pedigree is just a piece of paper, this way we can buy a virtually-pedigree puppy AND save lots of money) without realising that 'breeders' who advertise that clearly have something to hide...

Then there are special regulations if a dog is imported from abroad or if you choose a foreign dog for your bitch...

One last thing regarding taxes... the ENCI also provides advice in terms of how to declare your litters when it comes to pay taxes

 

[Vizslak]

Doesn't sound like we can learn too much from Italy then! Sounds like another system out to make money for the organisation and flawed with ways round it so BYB still goes on and registration isn't neccessary...I guess health testing isn't mandatory either? I like the fact a representative comes to see the litter though!

 

[Vizslak]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


***FinnishLapphund gets the image of lots of

sitting around a fire, inside a cave making the decisions of the Kennel Club.***

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh I dont think they are that advanced FinnishLappund

Besides, the Kennel Club are incapable of making a decision

[/ QUOTE ]

Pmsl!

 

[CAYLA]

[ QUOTE ]
LOL @ you two!

Ok....is there not a risk that some "scutty" (oh how I love that word) purchasers will then opt to not vaccinate, castrate etc for fear of taking their backstreet pup to the vet when they don't have all the legitimate paperwork? Would it therefore lead to more abandoned dogs when the "scutty" owner ends up dumping the dog if it needs veterinary attention, before they'd go and worry about the fine as well as the vet fees?

Ultimately, it's the animals who might be compromised if people would have a fear of going to the vet with them.

On the other hand, it's the animals who would benefit widely IF there was a foolproof way of enforcing/regulating breeding and all breeders.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have to have faith dear Patches

it takes time to impliment rules and change, and it's better than the current system, there wil be those that fall throught the net....but if we are strong and hold as one

we will be victorious in our fight for doggy justice

Also ban all free add crap and have one data base with registered dogs, the reason for mating, health status and a way to check the authenticity(sp) and breeders pay to join, and have a working section.......this will take away much needed advertising aids for puppy farmers.....I cannot imaginr them wanting to pay for 20 adds for all their different bitches and forking out health tests and fees, and they need to advertise somewhere

 

[FinnishLapphund]

It is very interesting to hear how it works in other countries.

SKK recommends that breeders should send in the registration form before the puppies are max 3 weeks old (21 days), because you will then receive the SKK certificates within 3 weeks (= puppies will be 6 weeks old), which is in good time before the puppies are allowed to leave its breeder, from when they're 8 weeks old.


SKK rules states that when a puppy leave its breeder it must have a vet check certificate no older than seven days and be ID marked, which means that most puppies have a vet check and is ID marked when they are about 7 weeks old.

About the ID marking, there is only one problem, until the buyer, after buying the puppy, sends in a little prepaid card registering themselves as owner, nobody is listed as owner

and not all owners bothers about filling in a few lines with their own name and address on the prepaid card and posting it!
In case it is needed, clarification, the cost of this service is baked into the registration fee, it doesn't cost the buyer anything extra, except the effort of filling it in and posting it. What do they think, that only because the puppy is already ID marked, SKK will by their supernatural powers know who bought it?

(I actually checked on SKK's homepage a few weeks after that Jonna's puppies should have had their owners registered, to make sure it had been done.)




You need to register a kennel name at the latest in combination with that you register your third litter and as I understand it, from then on you need to be able to pass having your kennel(/home) inspected. Failing on the inspection and failing to correct the issues or at three successive times not allowing an inspection because of different reasons (since the inspections are unannounced, SKK recognises that they can come at a bad time, e.g. when you're just about to go to work) can lead to being banned from SKK.



SKK does in general not like artificial insemination, they view not being able to mate naturally as a disqualifying fault.
The rules state that A.I. is not acceptable
- When the dog or bitch in question has decreased libido or impaired fertility.
- When physical illness or defect, not caused by external factors, prevents a normal mating.

Only in rare exceptions will SKK accept that A.I. are used, if not both the stud dog and the brood bitch have previously documented their breeding ability, through normal reproduction, but if they have, A.I. can be used e.g. because the stud dog is living in another country.
You have to inform SKK about the insemination, within 14 days.






As I've said before, breeders does not choose to not register their puppies, to save the buyer any money!

E.g. if I, before the puppies are max 3 weeks old, send in the form to register the litter and receives the SKK certificates before the puppies are 6 weeks old, that is around the time when I 'sort of' have to pay SKK for the certificates. Not when I receive full payment from the buyer while picking up their puppy, at 8 weeks of age!

So since it is not exactly as if I can send certificates back, saying "Sorry, the buyer didn't want to pay for them, can I have my money back, please?", I'm either trying to squeeze more money out of buyers of purebred puppies or (more likely) I'm selling unregistered puppies under the disguise of making the buyer think he/she is doing a bargain.



By the way, something I have forgotten to mention on this thread, is that SKK closed a registration loophole 1 or 2 years ago. They didn't approve many registrations of litters retrospectively before but now, it should not be much point in coming and saying that "Oops, did they need an approved HD result? Let's HD x-ray the stud dog/brood bitch or both after the litter is born and hold our thumbs (fingers crossed) they pass", because new rules states that it is the breeders responsibility to find out which registration rules that concerns their dog breed, before mating their bitch!

To me it sounds like a minimum demand on a responsible breeder, so I'm glad that it's now a rule.

 

[Aru]

Wow great thread guys its really intreasting to see how other countrys manage the breeding industry...

We could really do with some serious changes to our breeding legislation over here in Ireland...the amount of large scale puppy farms you hear of it madness

.....and Kc registration means nothing...some of the better orgainised ones have only registered pups because they command a higher price.

gumtree, buy and sell, and donedeal are full of ads with a load of different pup breeds and the words Will deliver often appears....

I have heard of more organised puppy farms where a shed on the farm was converted to dog pens where the breeding went on... all of small dogs,westies, CKCS some unusual terriers etc as you can fit more in and they mature earlier.

When people came to view the pups mother and litter were brought up to the house and kept there....

mind you that was an apparently "reputable" breeder he did go to the effort of getting vet care for his dogs and did employ some local kids to come in and play with the pups to socilise them a bit...
not a great life for his breeding bitches though.

Scary to think he was given as an example of a puppy farmer doing it right....apparently he made around 10,000 a year in tax free profit as well

To help control the puppy farms we do need two things in my opinion....

restrictions and licensing on breeding ANY dog not just pedigrees.
any dog being breed should have to go through some sort of system.
amazing how some paper work might make breeding seem like less fun

(might also encourage people to neuter more)...but mostly hitting breeders where it hurts...their pocket..if its not very profitable why would people breed hugh numbers?
but agin that's an ideal situation not a very practical one

2. a hugh public campaign to help people understand what puppy farming is and how to avoid them when looking for a pup...
it just not something many people realise exists or how widescale the problem is unless they are involved with dogs already..

At the minute the green party (for once

) are doing something benifial and are trying to push new legislation that will control breeding premises though.

"under the terms of the Bill, a local authority will be empowered to issue a closure notice requiring a dog breeding establishment to cease breeding or keeping dogs"
and
"It will also be a criminal offence to operate an unregistered dog breeding establishment, except in specified circumstances where there is an application submitted or where it is subject to appeal."
are two areas it covers

So maybe there is some hope...i just wonder how they are going to enforce the new laws