Is it cruel to purposly leave a horse cold to lose weight?

[Kaylum]

It's a lot more cruel to let it get into an overweight state, so many excuses as to why they are like that and I will say again get your meadow management skills uptodate. People aren't feeding the correct type of grass. This is where the whole system fails. A little research into what's in your paddock and how to manage it will save a lot of horses becoming overweight and needing extra hard feed rubbish.

 

[sarahann1]

I think the main thing here is the difference between "cool" and "cold". I (hopefully) doubt that anyone here would leave their horses cold but a fair few - myself included - will leave them cool.

This sums up my approach.

I have made the mistake of over rugging in the past, the horse came out fatter than he went in, add lib haulage suitied him very well and hes retired so isnt in any work. I felt incredibly guilty and invested in rugs of lots of different weights, so basically as far as I can manage, he's wearing the absolute minimum weight for the conditions. I dont want my horse to be toasty, tepid is fine and its what they are meant to cope with. I regularly went up on really filthy days expecting to find him really cold because he only had a 50 or 100g rug on, nope, I think I used his 180g about twice last year

 

[Arabelle]

Quite interesting insights on this thread - some people who are quick to rug do so as they see their horses as children and therefore it is cruel for them to be outside naked as you wouldn't do that to a child

 

[MurphysMinder]

It's not cruel to be slow in rugging against the harsher elements if your horse is comfortable.

However, to leave any horse cold, wet and shivering without any attention given - that is cruel.

^^^ This. I took the rug off our pony whilst it was still chilly at the beginning of the year as I wanted her drop some weight before the spring grass came through. However she does have access to a decent shelter all year, and uses it in the rain. I will be leaving off rugging her this winter for quite a while as she has put on weight over the summer, and at the moment cannot be lunged as she has a damaged radial nerve. If she appears cold and shivering she will be rugged, but if she burns up some calories to keep warm that is fine by me.

 

[katherine1975]

OP I recall reading another post of yours where you said you found it easier to keep your horses slim in the summer. My cob does put on weight in the summer, lives out 24/7, field sectioned off and strip grazed. She is clipped in winter and never feels cold, just not over rugged. As they live out I feed haylage in the field twice a day once the grass has gone. I think it is more natural for horses to gain a bit of weight in the summer and lose it in winter.

 

[cindydog]

I voted yes, as was advised by my vet, horse was overweight.
Now if it was snowing or very cold and stormy then I would rug, it worked.

 

[POLLDARK]

You ask if it is acceptablee to leave a horse cold & SHIVERING to lose weight. Re the shivering I could not leave a horse in that state simply to control it's weight, there are other ways & that is, in my mind, cruel. If you had an overweight dog would you treat it the same way or would you take control of its' diet & excercise ?

 

[Wagtail]

OP I recall reading another post of yours where you said you found it easier to keep your horses slim in the summer.

Yes, despite having far too much grass this year, I have still managed to keep the fatties slim. Though one of my paddocks has gone to waste as the grass is so long and lush but I couldn't find anyone around to cut it for hay. The reason I find it easier is that I restrict the grazing by only putting the 3 fatties in bareish paddocks. One of them comes into the sand turnout for 16 hours a day, with soaked hay, another is penned inside her paddock during the day, again with soaked hay. I don't like muzzles and so never use them, but appreciate that some people have no choice, and better that than having a fat horse. But in winter, I feed haylage and find it really difficult with some of them to keep them occupied munching without them gaining weight. I don't like horses standing for hours with nothing. Sods law, the one most prone to weight gain has worked out how to tear any haynet I give him, even the expensive trickle nets .

 

[Wagtail]

You ask if it is acceptablee to leave a horse cold & SHIVERING to lose weight. Re the shivering I could not leave a horse in that state simply to control it's weight, there are other ways & that is, in my mind, cruel. If you had an overweight dog would you treat it the same way or would you take control of its' diet & excercise ?

Good point regarding the dog.

 

[Marydoll]

This pony is in work 6 days a week, usually for at least an hour and a half if schooling (1 hour schooling and 15 min hack to/from school) or 2 hours if hacking which include lots of trot/canter work and hills.
He gets 2 small slices of soaked haylage - intolerant to hay - and a tiny hard feed to put his supplements in, he is out on sparse grazing overnight when the sugar in the grass is lower. Please tell me how you would reduce his feed or up his exercise cos I would love to know He did over 2 hours fast work/XC on Sunday with no problems so is fit.

As I said before no matter what you do some horses and ponies will put on weight, leaving them slightly cooler - NOT COLD over the winter is a great way of helping to shift that extra weight so they don't go down with Laminitis in the spring.

I agree there is a difference between cooler and cold, but a horse can be cool in the evening and very cold by morning over a winters night if out in the elements

 

[Goldenstar]

I agree there is a difference between cooler and cold, but a horse can be cool in the evening and very cold by morning over a winters night if out in the elements

And as long as it's conditioned to living outside and it's not a very fine thin skinned type it will do the horse no harm at all they are designed to be able to do this.
I think one of the issues is the use of the cruel its becoming an overused word , it's perhaps more interesting to insert the word unkind and think again about the issue.
I wish I would post a picture of fatty because most of you would think what she on about that horse looks ok , but he only looks ok because he's worked all year round lives on a horrible starvation strip and I can't wait for the hunting to get going as it gives me a bit of a break from it even hunting two days a week he would gain wieght if we looour eyes off the ball but we chose to take on an
obese ID with complex medical issues so I have to get on with it.
Really keeping him a layer or two colder than the others is the least
unpleasant thing I have to this poor fatty to keep him healthy.

 

[Achinghips]

It's a lot more cruel to let it get into an overweight state, so many excuses as to why they are like that and I will say again get your meadow management skills uptodate. People aren't feeding the correct type of grass. This is where the whole system fails. A little research into what's in your paddock and how to manage it will save a lot of horses becoming overweight and needing extra hard feed rubbish.

Totally agree

 

[touchstone]

It's a lot more cruel to let it get into an overweight state, so many excuses as to why they are like that and I will say again get your meadow management skills uptodate. People aren't feeding the correct type of grass. This is where the whole system fails. A little research into what's in your paddock and how to manage it will save a lot of horses becoming overweight and needing extra hard feed rubbish.

The trouble is it takes years for pasture that is suitable for horses to develop as once you've got heavily fertilised ryegrass then the whole mineral profile of the soil changes. I think I once read that it takes about 20 years for pasture to return to a more balanced state after heavy fertilising with nitrates.
It isn't simply a case of sowing suitable grasses, they will soon be out competed by those that thrive in the soils particular mineral balance and structure, there are still people who want lush, well fertilised grass for their horses out there too. I agree that we need more horse friendly pasture, but it isn't a quick fix to the problem of overweight horses by any means.

 

[Mince Pie]

I agree there is a difference between cooler and cold, but a horse can be cool in the evening and very cold by morning over a winters night if out in the elements

Mine isn't out overnight in winter A few years ago my ponies were coming in after work which was about midnight, even using the next weight down he was never cold. I never have him toasty warm, but if you feel his armpits he isn't cold. Also unless it's absolutely dire I don't use full neck rugs which I think helps as well.

It's a lot more cruel to let it get into an overweight state, so many excuses as to why they are like that and I will say again get your meadow management skills uptodate. People aren't feeding the correct type of grass. This is where the whole system fails. A little research into what's in your paddock and how to manage it will save a lot of horses becoming overweight and needing extra hard feed rubbish.

Agree, but in my case our fields haven't been fertilised for 25 years so the grass isn't lush dairy grass. Also my haylage is from meadow grasses rather than rye.

 

[smokey]

Mine went into winter last year overweight, first winter living out. She had no hard feed and no rug for the first few months, and was fine. However, once she had reached a reasonable weight, I started feeding to maintain that weight. The first day I went to check her and she was cold, she went into her rug (med weight regular neck). In the depths of winter she was fed haylage and wore her full neck med weight. She was never cold, but some days a bit cooler than others. Never allowed her to overheat, and gave her time every day rug free, even just an hour in the stable. She came out of the winter looking the best she ever has, so will be sticking with that this year again.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I agree wholeheartedly with this. My overweight mare has *lost* weight this summer. She has not been muzzled/strip grazed/ brought in to stand for hours with nothing to eat. She was rugged once in June(?) when the weather was horrendous and her summer coat could not keep her warm. She has been out with her small, stable herd 24/7. Has been brought in for a maximum of 1 hr to a feed of straw chaff (now increased to 2 feeds). Our grass has never, to my knowledge been fertilised artificially.
I much prefer my approach to weight-control to standing in with nothing to eat and I will NOT use haynets under any circumstances (except travelling). Nasty dangerous things!

 

[LD&S]

I admit to having an obese pony, although i didnt let him get like that i bought him like it, poor lad - have a look at ths photo, would YOU rug him ? I am usually one for rugging my ponies up but this one wont see more than a rainsheet until he is fit and in regular work

I would if he were very cold but I always start with just a rain sheet as it keeps the wind out but if he were still cold yes I would rug.

Mine are out 24/7 but I have field stables so could stable if I wanted but I never have and probably never will as moving around helps keep them warm, they also have 24/7 access to straw which helps keep them warm and give them something extra to nibble on with very few calories, they are all a few kgs over what I would prefer but with the shorter days that will gradually drop off and come out of winter looking svelt so if the grazing is a bit rich next summer a few extra kgs won't hurt.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Good point regarding the dog.

Not really, dogs and humans have evolved completely differently to deal with their environments. Omnivores do not need to trickle feed but can mange on one meal a day Or even less). For the most part dogs do not have waterproof coats to equal those of horses either.
In evolutionary terms, horses have only recently been domesticated. Their metabolisms will take many thousands of years to catch up. I wonder if those comparing dogs/humans to horses really understand how a horses body works.

 

[martlin]

I wonder if those comparing dogs/humans to horses really understand how a horses body works.

I wouldn't have thought so
Seeing as the understanding of under-rugging seems to be non-existent, either.
A horse left ''cool'' will not lose weight because it's cold... it will lose weight, because it will use the calories consumed to keep itself warm, thus not using them to produce a fat layer.
When a horse is cold, shivering and tucked up, it has gone too far - it means it doesn't get enough grub to stay warm.

 

[POLLDARK]

Why do people keep missing the shivering reference. With a dog or a horse if it is shivering I feel that it has got TOO cold. It is the shivering that gets me.

 

[Littlelegs]

Whilst its pretty common knowledge that remaining warm boosts the metabolism, it would be interesting to know if there was research into how shivering boosts it. I realise humans & horses are different entirely, but it strikes me that if shivering burnt calories efficiently, the diet industry would be on to it. It may not be pleasant, but considering what people go through to lose weight, if it worked then I'm sure people would be sat in freezers. Plus, not scientific research, but when its cold & I shiver, the end result is my body reducing the circulation to extremeties, i.e. slowing my metabolism to keep important organs going. When its cold & I move about to keep warm, the resulting munchies prove my metabolism is boosted. Surely it doesn't take much imagination to realise the results of shivering/ versus staying warm are the same in horses?

 

[Wagtail]

Why do people keep missing the shivering reference. With a dog or a horse if it is shivering I feel that it has got TOO cold. It is the shivering that gets me.

You are correct. The question says 'cold and shivering'. It seems that over half of respondents are happy to do this, or else they cannot read.

 

[rhino]

Also I'm sure I've seen that research has shown it's better for cobs & natives to put on a bit of weight (but not a stupid amount) in the late summer/autumn & come out of winter a bit thin than for them to maintain a constant weight all year round.

I would love to see it if you can find a link. Never heard of that, assuming by 'constant' weight you mean an ideal condition score or thereabouts. Certainly maintaining a constant state of obesity is not good...

Whilst its pretty common knowledge that remaining warm boosts the metabolism, it would be interesting to know if there was research into how shivering boosts it. I realise humans & horses are different entirely, but it strikes me that if shivering burnt calories efficiently, the diet industry would be on to it. It may not be pleasant, but considering what people go through to lose weight, if it worked then I'm sure people would be sat in freezers. Plus, not scientific research, but when its cold & I shiver, the end result is my body reducing the circulation to extremeties, i.e. slowing my metabolism to keep important organs going. When its cold & I move about to keep warm, the resulting munchies prove my metabolism is boosted. Surely it doesn't take much imagination to realise the results of shivering/ versus staying warm are the same in horses?

Funny that jockeys will use saunas to lose weight, and those stupid 'zagorra' clothes that are about just now which are being billed as a 'weight loss miracle' - yep that would be the sweat you are losing Don't know if it still goes on but didn't the Americans (mostly - read it in an American book) still sweat wrap horse's necks to lose weight; only a temporary method obviously. Off on a tangent, but interesting.

Agree Wagtail, people are responding to the thread title rather than the poll question (as I have done in the past )

 

[Mince Pie]

Perhaps then Wagtail you would like to edit the title of the thread as I wonder how many people read the title of the POLL before voting? I didn't as I read the title to be "Is it cruel to purposly leave a horse cold to lose weight?" not "Is it cruel to purposly leave a horse cold AND SHIVERING to lose weight?"


ETA: cross posted with Rhino

 

[ponypilotmum]

I think, in order to understand how a horse's body works you need to look at wild ponies. How they eat, forage, and the way their coats grow and shed with the seasons. None are rugged / clipped/ groomed/ fed yet you never see an obese hill pony. Underweight, maybe, but never obese.

Can't believe some people are comparing horses to children

ETA: should i not lunge my horses bearing in mind I don't chase my children round with a whip? Bedtime story? Duvet and pillow?

 

[Wagtail]

Perhaps then Wagtail you would like to edit the title of the thread as I wonder how many people read the title of the POLL before voting? I didn't as I read the title to be "Is it cruel to purposly leave a horse cold to lose weight?" not "Is it cruel to purposly leave a horse cold AND SHIVERING to lose weight?"


ETA: cross posted with Rhino

I see. Unfortunately I cannot edit the title as it only allows editing up to 15 mins after posting.

 

[Littlelegs]

Know its a tangent, but I now have an image of walk in freezers replacing diets, gastric bands, gyms etc.
Hairycob- I kind of see what your saying. I prefer natives & good doers to gain in summer & lose in winter. My two start spring at 2.5, by mid autumn they are slightly above a 3, but below 3.5, which they then lose over winter. Not because I have read research saying its better than a constant weight though. It is more practical though than restricting grazing/ food in summer & feeding loads over winter. It does only work though if both your summer grazing & winter forage are the type suitable for natives. Mine lose in winter because they have late cut hay & in a large field with varied pasture, which over winter requires more movement to find. In summer its plentiful but not rich or fertilized. Meaning laminitis & obesity aren't a worry, but they get the pleasure of 24/7 grazing without muzzles etc. Not sure it would be of great benefit to let their weight swing if they lived in year round, with rich forage & turnout on a small square of rich dairy type pasture though.

 

[Goldenstar]

My brother ( a doctor ) was telling me he had been looking at some Interesting work on boosting metabolism in people by making them shower in cold water at regular intervals .
You are looking at different things not eating enough and regularly enough slows metabolism it seems that getting cold boosts it although he lost me off after a while but I thought that was very interesting they are hoping it can help insulin resistant people I think.
Give a cold horse fibre to eat and it will warm up because digestion uses energy which produces heat that's the perfect circle for a fat horse.

 

[Dolcé]

No, there are other ways, more humane to get a horse to lose weight, such as reducing/changing food and exercising them more. Imo it is lazy owners with no time due to poor priority setting who leave a horse tucked up, looking miserable, shivering.

You see this is totally different to what we do yet seems to be what people believe is the way it is done. If any of mine were shivering and tucked up then action would be taken immediately - it is a completely different situation, perhaps I misunderstood the OP. We control the amount of forage given through winter so that energy is burned keeping the pony warm, this way the weight naturally drops. Our ponies are all natives and do not (usually) need rugging, other than one section A who struggles, he is rugged when he needs to be. We don't underfeed, they get normal maintenence amounts weighed religiously. Because it is cold they would normally stand around a big bale pigging out, keep warm because the forage is doing it's job, and not lose weight - this way they get enough to keep them warm but have to work a bit harder to stay warm. It is a different way of managing them but that does not mean it is wrong!

ETA: have just read the replies above and see that I answered the title and not the poll question, doh! That explains why people are talking about shivering and being tucked up. Note to self, always read the question properly!