Is PTS a reasonable choice for my mare?

[ycbm]

That’s fine as is me thinking it’s relevant

What is not fine, in my book, is you making another poster's life more difficult just to take up your habitual, thread after thread, contrarian stance. Your own life has been hard enough in the last year. What puzzles me is why would you want to make anyone else's more difficult?

 

[bonny]

What is not fine, in my book, is you making another poster's life more difficult just to take up your habitual, thread after thread, contrarian stance. Your own life has been hard enough in the last year. What puzzles me is why would you want to make anyone else's more difficult?

You’re getting very carried away, how am I making someone’s life difficult by asking how old her horse is ?

 

[[153312]]

Because an animal in pain is an animal in pain regardless of its age? It's completely irrelevant to the matter being discussed.

Have some empathy for OP.

 

[ycbm]

You’re getting very carried away, how am I making someone’s life (more) difficult by asking how old her horse is ?

I am genuinely sad that you don't know.
.

 

[windand rain]

Sorry you are facing this but a horse in pain should be relieved of that pain ASAP if it is not controlable easily then PTS is the only solution

 

[Sossigpoker]

Ulcers are usually a secondary issue to pain somewhere else in the body. So unless that pain is addressed , the ulcers will likely come back after treatment.
If you can't afford to investigate and treat what else is going on then PTS it kinder than allowing her to be in constant pain.
But personally I would investigate further.

 

[RHGR]

Ulcers are usually a secondary issue to pain somewhere else in the body. So unless that pain is addressed , the ulcers will likely come back after treatment.
If you can't afford to investigate and treat what else is going on then PTS it kinder than allowing her to be in constant pain.
But personally I would investigate further.

Its less that the ulcers came back, and more that they just didn't go away. The vets were very shocked. 6 weeks of GG caused a reaction of some kind and actually made her ulcers worse, and 8 doses of injectable omeprazole made no difference, none of the vets had ever seen anything like it

 

[I don’t like mondays]

I don’t think you’re being unreasonable at all. Sounds like an unhappy horse and that you’re unhappy too. Sorry you’re in this position. The fact you are questioning it means you’re not taking it lightly

 

[Sossigpoker]

Its less that the ulcers came back, and more that they just didn't go away. The vets were very shocked. 6 weeks of GG caused a reaction of some kind and actually made her ulcers worse, and 8 doses of injectable omeprazole made no difference, none of the vets had ever seen anything like it

Has Sulfacrate been used?

 

[RHGR]

Has Sulfacrate been used?

She was on sucralfate at the same time as being treated with GG and injectable omeprazole

 

[Sossigpoker]

She was on sucralfate at the same time as being treated with GG and injectable omeprazole

I'm sorry to hear the ulcers aren't getting better. I wouldn't blame you for ending her pain if your vet supported that. As the ulcers aren't healing, I wonder if she has significant pain somewhere else. In any case , she doesn't sound like a happy horse - understandably.

 

[RHGR]

I'm sorry to hear the ulcers aren't getting better. I wouldn't blame you for ending her pain if your vet supported that. As the ulcers aren't healing, I wonder if she has significant pain somewhere else. In any case , she doesn't sound like a happy horse - understandably.

We have no idea where we would start with further investigation as she is sound, couldnt see if she was sound under saddle as she will not let me mount. But she's perfectly capable of clearing a 1.3m fence on a daily basis and clearing it with room to spare (even though she is only a 14.2 cob). I will speak with my vet and if we think there's a decent possiblity of finding an issue and treating it then I would like to try as she is a very talented little mare and she is my heart horse, but I can't see us managing to find and successfully treat within the insurance limit (or at least not going thousands above)

 

[Lurfy]

RHGH I think if you pts now it would be a gift for your mare. She sounds very unhappy despite all your efforts to help her. You have done the best you can with your vet and you are still at risk of losing your livery as her behavior is so challenging. I really feel for you, but she sounds seriously uncomfortable. Good luck with your decision.

 

[Sossigpoker]

I would x-ray her back for kissing spine and her neck for 'wobbler' , personally. Neither one of those is expensive and may well provide the answer.

 

[ycbm]

As a guideline, my bill for back and neck x ray was £500 last year.

 

[Regandal]

Ulcer treatment can knock the gut out of whack. You could try a course of protexin and aloe vera, I have personally had great results with Coopers Gut Support following ulcer treatment. Also give aloe vera.

 

[Sossigpoker]

As a guideline, my bill for back and neck x ray was £500 last year.

I'd happily pay that before putting my horse down.

Kissing spine is so common as the cause of the ulcers plus the horse seems to suggest possible back pain.

 

[Sossigpoker]

We have no idea where we would start with further investigation as she is sound, couldnt see if she was sound under saddle as she will not let me mount. But she's perfectly capable of clearing a 1.3m fence on a daily basis and clearing it with room to spare (even though she is only a 14.2 cob). I will speak with my vet and if we think there's a decent possiblity of finding an issue and treating it then I would like to try as she is a very talented little mare and she is my heart horse, but I can't see us managing to find and successfully treat within the insurance limit (or at least not going thousands above)

You'd be surprised by how often a first opinion vet says that the horse is sound but a more Eagle eyed one disagrees and finds something. Not saying that your vet isn't any good but if this was my horse , I would get a specialist view on soundness. (My first opinion vet is an orthopaedic specialist which is very handy )

 

[ycbm]

I'd happily pay that before putting my horse down.

Kissing spine is so common as the cause of the ulcers plus the horse seems to suggest possible back pain.

I agree with you but the owner does also need to factor in what treatment will cost if something is found and the liklihood that it will give a long term solution.

So I wouldn't, for example, xray the back or neck of a horse I knew had a fractured pelvis, because the chances of ending up with a happy horse at the end of it, no matter what the xrays show, seems to me to be pretty slim.

It's going to vary from owner to owner and horse to horse even when they've got the same owner.

This is a lucky horse to have an owner who cares as much as she does.
.

 

[RHGR]

I would x-ray her back for kissing spine and her neck for 'wobbler' , personally. Neither one of those is expensive and may well provide the answer.

Her bone scan a year ago showed no abnormalities in her spine or anywhere except her pelvis (slight uptake in SI due to compensation so that was injected). I can't imagine it would have changed much as her behaviour etc are the same as back just after she got her bone scan

 

[Shilasdair]

I'm not sure I understand what the issue with the horse is?

Is it the fracture which hasn't healed and is causing her pain still?
Or is it the ulcers which are still troubling her?

If the former, I'd be inclined to ask a vet for information regarding whether further healing is possible, and I'd feed a diet to support bone repair (with the relevant minerals) along with painkillers to make her comfortable (bute is relatively cheap).
If the latter, it might be a problem with her diet not suiting her. Horses are very much individuals and have their tolerances/intolerances and preferences when it comes to feedstuffs. What are you feeding her - and in what quantities - maybe we can help?

 

[RHGR]

I'm not sure I understand what the issue with the horse is?

Is it the fracture which hasn't healed and is causing her pain still?
Or is it the ulcers which are still troubling her?

If the former, I'd be inclined to ask a vet for information regarding whether further healing is possible, and I'd feed a diet to support bone repair (with the relevant minerals) along with painkillers to make her comfortable (bute is relatively cheap).
If the latter, it might be a problem with her diet not suiting her. Horses are very much individuals and have their tolerances/intolerances and preferences when it comes to feedstuffs. What are you feeding her - and in what quantities - maybe we can help?

The issue is both that she has ulcers that do not respond to treatment so we cannot cure them therefore she is in pain, and possibly there is residual pain from fractured pelvis which isn't treatable beyond what we've already done (almost two years since the fracture).
She is on 24/7 turnout supplemented with hay and is given feed which consists of small amounts of topchop zero and a fibre mash, and gets a balancer and a gut supplement (we've tried a few different kinds)

 

[BronsonNutter]

OP, I am sorry that you and your lovely cob are in this position. You are her owner and you know her best, so if you think she is unhappy and doesn’t have a good quality of life any more then making the decision to PTS is not an unreasonable one. Your horse will not suffer and won’t blame you one bit. With the length of time that the pelvic injury has been ongoing (which is a very unusual injury for her type of horse, I’m not surprised it was hard to find) it’s unlikely to come right quickly - if ever - for her.

If you don’t feel ‘ready’ for that call just yet, and you feel that the ulcers are the main cause of her sadness at the moment, it may be worth having a discussion with your vet regarding different ulcer treatments - I’m not sure which ‘type’ of ulcers she has, but I have had some cases which haven’t responded well to the classic omeprazole/sucralfate combo, but have done well with misoprostal (cytotec) - however it isn’t great for certain types so really depends on which kind she has. It’s not cheap as treatment but if it works for her you can then wean down to a low maintenance dose which isn’t too bad and they can stay on it. Another thing that could be propagating the ulcers could be a dietary intolerance, so you could an exclusion diet trial or dietary allergy testing - especially if there has been a change in what she eats due to her injury. It may be that neither of these things help your horse but if you want to explore all options for your own sake then I think it is worth the discussion with your vet. It’s a horrible position to be in for you and whatever you decide look after yourself.

 

[RHGR]

OP, I am sorry that you and your lovely cob are in this position. You are her owner and you know her best, so if you think she is unhappy and doesn’t have a good quality of life any more then making the decision to PTS is not an unreasonable one. Your horse will not suffer and won’t blame you one bit. With the length of time that the pelvic injury has been ongoing (which is a very unusual injury for her type of horse, I’m not surprised it was hard to find) it’s unlikely to come right quickly - if ever - for her.

If you don’t feel ‘ready’ for that call just yet, and you feel that the ulcers are the main cause of her sadness at the moment, it may be worth having a discussion with your vet regarding different ulcer treatments - I’m not sure which ‘type’ of ulcers she has, but I have had some cases which haven’t responded well to the classic omeprazole/sucralfate combo, but have done well with misoprostal (cytotec) - however it isn’t great for certain types so really depends on which kind she has. It’s not cheap as treatment but if it works for her you can then wean down to a low maintenance dose which isn’t too bad and they can stay on it. Another thing that could be propagating the ulcers could be a dietary intolerance, so you could an exclusion diet trial or dietary allergy testing - especially if there has been a change in what she eats due to her injury. It may be that neither of these things help your horse but if you want to explore all options for your own sake then I think it is worth the discussion with your vet. It’s a horrible position to be in for you and whatever you decide look after yourself.

Thank you very much, will be speaking to my vet anyway do shall discuss the misoprostal route to see if it's something they think is worth trying

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

OP your mare sounds almost exactly like my poor girl back in the summer; as well as having trigeminal nerve headshaking (one of the worst cases my vet had ever seen), she also very probably had ulcers (vets opinion) she also was likely suffering from EMS, and CPL and was a sub-clinical laminitic as well. She was continually unhappy to the extent that she was beating up other members of the herd and when one day she turned her behaviour on a human and nearly ran them down in the yard we knew it was time to say goodbye.

The trigeminal headshaking would have been enough reason to PTS TBH.

We made the sad decision to have her euthanised as she was just so very sad distressed and unhappy. She was just 10, should have been in her prime. But we had to let her go. People were saying oh try this and try that, but at the end of the day we'd been there done-it with the "try this & try that" and she'd been through enough.

So very sorry for anyone in the same position; it is heartbreaking it really is.

Thinking of you OP.

 

[Flicker]

OP, I’m so sorry to hear of your situation. Pelvis and SI issues are notorious - the size of the area affected, the stresses on the structures, the difficulty reaching key joints etc to medicate. I’ve had two horses with SI dysfunction and neither returned to any level of comfort and both were PTS. My mare, we suspect, had ulcers too as a result of the SI pain.
All I can go on is my experience, and with both horses, I could see that they weren‘t happy. The first horse went from a very relaxed and laid back character to quite withdrawn and shut down. The mare was exceptionally backward and spooky to ride, and would stand in the back of her stable, just shifting weight from one leg to the other. When we had her on strong painkillers and cartrophen, she was a different animal - super off the leg, really sparky, friendly….
In both cases I chose PTS because there was no long-term option that I could see where their wellbeing could be assured within what was available to me financially.
Having them PTS was very sad and I miss them both dearly. But I believe it was the right thing to do for them.
Whatever decision you do take, make sure it is the right one for you and not influenced by anyone else one way or another. You know your horse best, you are the one paying the bills and caring for her every day. The only person that needs to be ok with your decision is you.
Thinking of you xx

 

[Shilasdair]

The issue is both that she has ulcers that do not respond to treatment so we cannot cure them therefore she is in pain, and possibly there is residual pain from fractured pelvis which isn't treatable beyond what we've already done (almost two years since the fracture).
She is on 24/7 turnout supplemented with hay and is given feed which consists of small amounts of topchop zero and a fibre mash, and gets a balancer and a gut supplement (we've tried a few different kinds)

Ok, so you need a plan.
Have you asked the vets if there is anything further that you can do (within your budget) to fix the pelvis issue?
Secondly - is she on ad lib hay? At this time of year the grass can vary from being very sugary if stressed to being empty of nutrients. If you could give her ad lib low sugar/low calorie forage (big tub trug of Top Chop Zero perhaps?) then that might resolve the ulcer issue. Perhaps try some anti-inflammatories like 'Buteless' (as bute can make stomach issues worse).

That's what I would do - and I'd put an end point to it - so if no better by first week in January, then PTS with a clear conscience.

 

[RHGR]

Ok, so you need a plan.
Have you asked the vets if there is anything further that you can do (within your budget) to fix the pelvis issue?
Secondly - is she on ad lib hay? At this time of year the grass can vary from being very sugary if stressed to being empty of nutrients. If you could give her ad lib low sugar/low calorie forage (big tub trug of Top Chop Zero perhaps?) then that might resolve the ulcer issue. Perhaps try some anti-inflammatories like 'Buteless' (as bute can make stomach issues worse).

That's what I would do - and I'd put an end point to it - so if no better by first week in January, then PTS with a clear conscience.

There's nothing really that can be done for the pelvis, it's the kind of injury where you put them on boxrest for a while and keep your fingers crossed sadly, which has already been done when she was diagnosed towards the end of last year.
She has adlib hay (or as adlib as you can make it with a greedy cob, she usually has a bit left each day). May give the buteless idea a shit to see if it helps, thank you

 

[Shilasdair]

There's nothing really that can be done for the pelvis, it's the kind of injury where you put them on boxrest for a while and keep your fingers crossed sadly, which has already been done when she was diagnosed towards the end of last year.
She has adlib hay (or as adlib as you can make it with a greedy cob, she usually has a bit left each day). May give the buteless idea a shot to see if it helps, thank you

They say alfalfa can also help with ulcers - there's Bailey's Light Chaff or Hi Fi Molasses Free (these are both alfalfa and straw mixes). Suitable for fatties.

 

[Melody Grey]

Just remembered OP that at one stage in our ulcers war my horse was on antibiotics (trying to remember the name!!) as well as omeprazole and sucralfate/ has this been considered?