Pictures Is she looking better... 5 months later

[Cortez]

What about the school of thought about holding hands high and wide?
https://goo.gl/images/Guqyvy
I tried to post the photo but it said it was too large so I am hoping this link works

Why don't they just ride properly?

Becuase beginners use the reins for balance and with that tends to come the excessive lifting of the hands.

...only if they haven't been taught, as they should be, on the lunge first. Something is terribly wrong in the heart of the way you are being taught to ride in the UK (I won't even START on the total vacuum that is Ireland....), but that does explain a lot of the problems discussed so often on here.

 

[Mule]

The strangest thing I've ever been told in relation to high hands is that they will lift up the horses shoulders. I don't think the mechanics of that are possible unless one has super human strength 🤔

 

[be positive]

Carrying your hands in the correct position will enable the horse to lift its own shoulder, in part because the rider will be sitting in a stronger more correct position than if they are riding with a low hand which in turn tends to tip the rider forward or cause them to fix the elbow or hand, so while it cannot lift the horse in the way you were being told it does change the balance so the horse can use itself more.
A horse in self carriage is what we are aiming for.

 

[ycbm]

The strangest thing I've ever been told in relation to high hands is that they will lift up the horses shoulders. I don't think the mechanics of that are possible unless one has super human strength 🤔

No you can't lift the shoulders by raising the hand, but you can stop the horse from evading lifting its own shoulders. I'll try and explain, possibly badly. I have a cob whose natural balance is to hold his shoulders back from under his withers. He can do this if he can rock his weight into his head and neck, which he can do without dropping his head beyond where you would expect. If I lift my hands, as Phillipe Karl teaches, it momentarily raises his head and unlocks his shoulders. I can clearly feel them as the muscles come through from behind the saddle and the connection flows forward over his shoulders and the weight shifts backwards over his hocks. There is no amount of driving from behind that will achieve this result with this horse. But raising the hand does it instantly, as long as I haven't allowed him to tip my pelvis forwards, which he has a black belt for

Then you go back to bit/hand/elbow alignment and try and keep the improvement. All easier said than done.


I think part of the reason that riders are riding with low hands is that horses are being trained in side reins or other devices which simply can't mimic where the hand should be. So the rider has to ride where the side reins were in order to achieve time same effect, which is false anyway because the horse is simply being held in position, not working in self carriage.

 

[ycbm]

View attachment 26434

Useful only for a nice stretch at the end of a schooling session on a green horse, imo.

 

[only_me]

In fairness its a massive debate at the moment about correctness of gaits etc - sure Valegros canter wasnt correct & it a World/European/Olpymic champion!!!

http://www.centaurbiomechanics.co.u...co-uk/_img/Horse and Hound Canter Article.pdf

That’s a very interesting article. But in the very first paragraph it states that a 4 beat canter isn’t as negative as everyone thinks, and not necessarily “wrong”

However they are saying the horses (eg. Valegro) are 4 time only in the pirouettes - which is probably part in parcel from the tiny size so the time difference between the hind leg hitting the ground is miniscule and so collected the horse is required to “have an extra leg” to balance.

Farouches pictures are interesting, the article also says that in a young horse the hind leg strikes first due to inexperience of moving their weight behind and low level of training, whereas a more trained horse can transition to front leg striking first to allow more balance and collection. Neither is “incorrect” but simply showing the horse is able to collect while maintaining balance.

 

[only_me]

Very interested in This discussion and dap, or even correctness, what do you think of these photos? Taken at slightly different stages/levels of “asking”. Canter one is collected into about to hp/shoulder in or about to 90* right (can’t quite remember sorry) , trot is eventing medium. Training at home around med/ad med but no one to take pics when it’s just me lol.


Feel free to ignore, but genuinely interested.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

I've been so much happier since I stopped worrying about all this and started shooting stuff

 

[Tarragon]

No you can't lift the shoulders by raising the hand, but you can stop the horse from evading lifting its own shoulders. I'll try and explain, possibly badly. I have a cob whose natural balance is to hold his shoulders back from under his withers. He can do this if he can rock his weight into his head and neck, which he can do without dropping his head beyond where you would expect. If I lift my hands, as Phillipe Karl teaches, it momentarily raises his head and unlocks his shoulders. I can clearly feel them as the muscles come through from behind the saddle and the connection flows forward over his shoulders and the weight shifts backwards over his hocks. There is no amount of driving from behind that will achieve this result with this horse. But raising the hand does it instantly, as long as I haven't allowed him to tip my pelvis forwards, which he has a black belt for

Then you go back to bit/hand/elbow alignment and try and keep the improvement. All easier said than done.


I think part of the reason that riders are riding with low hands is that horses are being trained in side reins or other devices which simply can't mimic where the hand should be. So the rider has to ride where the side reins were in order to achieve time same effect, which is false anyway because the horse is simply being held in position, not working in self carriage.

As I ride a pony that is naturally on the forehand I can appreciate you description in the first paragraph.

 

[tallyho!]

What about the school of thought about holding hands high and wide?
https://goo.gl/images/Guqyvy
I tried to post the photo but it said it was too large so I am hoping this link works

What a nice pleasing picture. I do use high hands and wide but as part of a series of aids/tools to ask the horse to flex/bend or reach fdo into the contact - which I'm taught lifts and strengthens the back. Anyone here, perhaps training with legerete will probably be able to recognise "action/reaction". I'm sure it's used elsewhere with a different name too...

It's funny isn't this low hand thing, it could be geographical/point in time even who knows but certainly not oop north where I learnt to ride. Instructors voice still ringing in my ears about holding a tray of drinks (or was it a pair of birds?). I do feel though unless you are balanced and have a secure seat it is very difficult to lift your hands as your back and shoulders are not free. Later in life when I started classical I had the stirrups and reins taken away completely until I could balance in walk, trot and canter... that was blummin' hard, and was for a long time!

 

[DabDab]

Haha, yep tray of drinks....and threads of a spider's web too.....though mostly I just spent my childhood having my reins taken away as penance for some hand indiscretion or another. Everyone always started on the lunge and were then led for a long time when I was young too

 

[Tiddlypom]

It was a small bird held in each hand for me...

Of course I sometimes let my hands get too low or have the back of my hands on top, but at least I know that's wrong.

 

[ester]

It took me a good time to sort my hands and bend my elbows , particularly my left one and ride with closed fingers.
I wasn't really 'taught' because all of the better schools in our vicinity had closed.

I have certainly heard plenty of 'hands down' for novices though as they do tend to lift their hands somewhere near their chest resulting in the horse subsequently stopping but Im not sure how much of that then carries on when you get more experienced or whether it's just something instructors aren't concentrating on.

My general experience has been getting very little instruction on 'myself' rather than influencing what they horse was doing, even when I went to have some more schoolmaster type lessons when Frank was off the road at the local BHS exam centre. The advantage of this is that at least I can see the difference in how I ride now to then

 

[Carrottom]

Did no-one else read Gill's Gymkhana? IIRC
"Heels down, head up,
Hands down, heart up.
Legs close to the horses side,
Elbows close to your own."
Or was just drilled into me at RS?

 

[SpringArising]

Another option is that we ride in whatever way we feel comfortable with and stop judging others for the way they ride...

 

[fankino04]

There must be a school of instructors who are actively teaching low pinned hands with rigid elbows. It is so common to see riders doing it these days, but so incorrect. Have the trainers somehow come through the BHS system believing this is how their students should ride?

I always wondered if this was to do with people lunging more and using more gadgets on the lunge to get an outline, none of these gadgets / aids replicate the line from riders hands to horses mouth, so I wonder if riders are focusing so much on the outline that they try to copy or replicate the horses way of going on the lunge???

 

[Cortez]

I always wondered if this was to do with people lunging more and using more gadgets on the lunge to get an outline, none of these gadgets / aids replicate the line from riders hands to horses mouth, so I wonder if riders are focusing so much on the outline that they try to copy or replicate the horses way of going on the lunge???

Side reins etc. aren't supposed to replicate the rider's hands, they are there to teach the horse what to do in response to the action of the bit (i.e. give and soften the jaw) and thus start to carry himself in the posture that is best able to carry the rider's weight.

 

[Cortez]

Another option is that we ride in whatever way we feel comfortable with and stop judging others for the way they ride...

It's not about the rider feeling "comfortable", it's about riding in the most effective and least damaging way for the horse.

 

[fankino04]

Side reins etc. aren't supposed to replicate the rider's hands, they are there to teach the horse what to do in response to the action of the bit (i.e. give and soften the jaw) and thus start to carry himself in the posture that is best able to carry the rider's weight.

I know that, I just wondered if riders were wrongly trying to replicate the positioning of side reins in an attempt to get the same outline.

 

[Circe]

It's not about the rider feeling "comfortable", it's about riding in the most effective and least damaging way for the horse.

This exactly. I had a lovely lady exercise my boy for me, but I had to put a stop to it, because despite constant requests/ lessons from our instructor/ her feeling the difference in my boy when she carried her hands, she couldn't get out of the habit of burying her hands in his withers. It has taken several treatments and a fair bit of work to fix his sore shoulders, and free him up again.
For me, I find that if I only think of lifting my hands, I also lift my shoulders, so if I think of lifting my sternum I can feel my horse lifting off his forehand.
Thank you to both posters who have put photos up. (its something I haven't been brave enough to do)

 

[tallyho!]

Very interested in This discussion and dap, or even correctness, what do you think of these photos? Taken at slightly different stages/levels of “asking”. Canter one is collected into about to hp/shoulder in or about to 90* right (can’t quite remember sorry) , trot is eventing medium. Training at home around med/ad med but no one to take pics when it’s just me lol.
View attachment 26444
View attachment 26445
Feel free to ignore, but genuinely interested.

I must have missed these yesterday... can I just say you have a very gorgeous coloured horse! I know what you mean. No one ever around to take mine either. In the first photo, about to hp/si, I would have been looking to that direction and already giving with my left rein a bit and opening my right to allow the horses right shoulder to open into the turn. It does look like there is excess power behind for a collected movement and the sense that the shoulders need more holding... perhaps there was more speed than what was wanted there? More “sitting” on the hocks would again allow a better turn. Again only saying what I see. The med trot may have been better in this pic more freedom/give allowed with the reins (lift?), the left fore strikes first so would indicate on the forehand still. Only saying what I see here again, forgive me if I’ve spoken out of turn. Beautiful horse!

 

[Berpisc]

Another option is that we ride in whatever way we feel comfortable with and stop judging others for the way they ride...

The thing is, you need to enable the horse to carry you well and comfortably and be secure and balanced as a rider.
Judging people is not productive, working towards a good independent seat is well worthwhile at all levels of riding, your horse will be far better off for it.

 

[SpringArising]

It's not about the rider feeling "comfortable", it's about riding in the most effective and least damaging way for the horse.

Which is something the majority strive for anyway. There are pictures on here of you riding where you're not in the perfect position you keep talking about so surely you understand saying and actually doing are often more difficult that it seems?

 

[Cortez]

Which is something the majority strive for anyway. There are pictures on here of you riding where you're not in the perfect position you keep talking about so surely you understand saying and actually doing are often more difficult that it seems?

I don't claim to be in the perfect position, but I do know why it is important to aim for it, and even more important to know what it is. And it's also why "judging" is part of being taught or competing, where you are actually paying someone to do that.

 

[JFTDWS]

Which is something the majority strive for anyway. There are pictures on here of you riding where you're not in the perfect position you keep talking about so surely you understand saying and actually doing are often more difficult that it seems?

Well that's pretty rude. Everyone on here has posted photos ASKING for advice - it's important that they're advised to aim for what is correct. Nobody can be perfect all of the time, but we should, at the very least, be striving for correctness in how we ride and encourage our horses to work.

 

[tallyho!]

Come on everyone, I'm learning too and this is a fantastic thread for everyone who is interested in biomechanically correct riding to train the eye. We should thank everyone who has posted a photo -I will find a few of me when I get chance for you to give your thoughts on. I would appreciate the time given for looking even. I think everything said here is easier said than done including every word I've said too but it helps us all, surely?

 

[Mahoganybay]

Well that's pretty rude. Everyone on here has posted photos ASKING for advice - it's important that they're advised to aim for what is correct. Nobody can be perfect all of the time, but we should, at the very least, be striving for correctness in how we ride and encourage our horses to work.

Having been one of the posters that put a picture of myself riding, I asked for advice. Yes, I was nervous because I knew I would get constructive criticism, and it can sometimes be a bit harsh on here. However I owe it to my horse to always be learning, even at my age, so a little bit of crit is fine (even though I am very pleased to see I didn’t get any).

My position is not always perfect and I have learnt a lot from the replies.

 

[Mahoganybay]

I had also booked myself onto a biomechanics demo day with Mary Wanless 👍

 

[JFTDWS]

Having been one of the posters that put a picture of myself riding, I asked for advice. Yes, I was nervous because I knew I would get constructive criticism, and it can sometimes be a bit harsh on here. However I owe it to my horse to always be learning, even at my age, so a little bit of crit is fine (even though I am very pleased to see I didn’t get any).

My position is not always perfect and I have learnt a lot from the replies.

I think that everyone who has posted photos on this thread has taken the responses with commendable grace, and the vast majority of the responses have been constructive on the whole (though there are one or two early responses to the OP which aren't ideal). I think it's unfair of the PP to criticise photos which haven't been posted on this thread, and are not being held up as exemplary in the first place. That poster might equally pick on my avatar which is a silly photo of my mare sliding around a barrel, and I am sitting like a demented duck (which, given the forces involved in that movement, isn't overly surprising!) - it's not correct, but I wouldn't claim it is. That's what is really important on this thread - knowing what to aim for. We all make compromises - little changes to suit the horse, the moment, the rider's imperfections - but we're all whittling away at those issues towards the ideal image of perfection we hold. And if that image is flawed, we're not only imperfect, we're working in the wrong direction too.

 

[ester]

If you start starfishing it will be mentioned