Is there (or should there be) a ceiling weight to horse riding

[ester]

I've driven ponies I wouldn't ride, and obviously there is two of you on carriage too. Good carriages are light and well balanced and pretty easy to pull - they did human pulled scurry last week at hopetoun ?

 

[I'm Dun]

It's nothing to do with body positivity or "fat shaming" (the same would apply with a very muscular person who was a heavy weight) it's about animal welfare and what we impose on an animal shaped like a suspension bridge.

Except it is. If you read this thread there are many many references made to fat and very few made to weight regardless of size and shape.

I stopped riding when I hit a weight I wasnt comfortable with, and I've lost over 3 stone to be able to ride again. Still 2 stone to go before I dont anything particularly exiciting riding wise as well. Its hard. Once you've been fat you will forever need to eat less than a person of the same size and shape who has never been fat. Your body will do everything it can to trick you into being fat again. It is a daily battle. I have no idea if I can maintain that for the rest of my life. Most people cant.

So I have no issue discussing weight and imposing limits. But some of the comments on this thread are unpleasant to read and very definitely about fat rather than weight

 

[Goldenstar]

Understood, I don't know much about it just assumed most horses of a good build would be able to pull an overweight rider better than to have one sat on them. Tiny scurry ponies seem to pull two average weight adults at speed, so if you could source a light vehicle then you could make it work?

A horse should not be pulling one person it must always be two .
The heavier the carriage the more stable it will be it’s safer ,scurrying is for the skilled it’s like the difference between a hack and and a speed class showjumping
Horse pulling uphill is working very hard I watched my weight when I was driving and I drove large horses .

 

[lynz88]

It is such a contentious and complicated issue with so many factors. I do believe that there are many riders too big for their horses, absolutely, and I don't like to encounter it... but I don't think a 'ceiling weight' would ever work as it depends on so many things. Everyone has different ideas about it too, sometimes I read the maximum weight people think is OK for a horse and it's lower than what I would think was fine! There is of course a point when I think people probably won't be able to find a suitable horse to carry them but hard to put a cap on it, so to speak. My OH is about 16st 4lbs and a beginner and I have no issue with him riding certain horses and firmly believe they can carry him. But I do think we are seeing more and more heavier riders who are not suitably mounted.

It's funny to encounter this topic this morning as yesterday I posted a canter clip from a ride I did in Mongolia in a FB horsey group. Someone very quickly screenshotted a moment showing one of the Mongolian horsemen on a particularly tiny Mongolian Horse with the phrase "OMG", evidently appalled, but there was not one moment in Mongolia when I didn't feel comfortable with those tiny horses carrying me, the riders in my group or the local horsemen and women. They are miniscule but absolutely as tough as nails and it didn't bother me at all. Equally I have ridden many horses on trips abroad who were smaller than I would choose for myself but they were fit and up to the task in my opinion.

This. I'm fairly tall at about 5'8/5'9 but also lightweight (probably about 55kg soaking wet) and rode some ponies in Cambodia a number of years back. At first I felt a bit awkward about it (they had weight and I think also height limits) as the ponies were much smaller than I would have chosen myself but those ponies are hardy things and once on, didn't feel so "big" (aside from the fact that they had pony strides which reminded me I was riding a pony!).

I've also seen riders much bigger than I ride much better than myself which was probably a lot easier for the horse so I do tend to agree with those who have said that there are a lot of variables to consider in a topic such as this and discretion needs to be given. I think there is a difference between being overweight and riding something appropriate (i.e. bigger boned) but riding in such a way as to not put extra strain on the horse or being overweight but riding fit and riding an appropriate horse/asking the horse to do appropriate work and being obese, non-riding fit, and riding and/or doing something that is not suitable.

 

[Goldenstar]

Except it is. If you read this thread there are many many references made to fat and very few made to weight regardless of size and shape.

I stopped riding when I hit a weight I wasnt comfortable with, and I've lost over 3 stone to be able to ride again. Still 2 stone to go before I dont anything particularly exiciting riding wise as well. Its hard. Once you've been fat you will forever need to eat less than a person of the same size and shape who has never been fat. Your body will do everything it can to trick you into being fat again. It is a daily battle. I have no idea if I can maintain that for the rest of my life. Most people cant.

So I have no issue discussing weight and imposing limits. But some of the comments on this thread are unpleasant to read and very definitely about fat rather than weight

It is a daily battle and it’s hard for those with a uncomplicated relationship with food to understand what it’s like .
It’s like being unshackled from a mad person when you get it under control.

I would not assume that you have a lower base metabolic rate than a thin person I have had mine measured and I came out of a diet with it at 1250 per day higher than I went into the diet with .
My observation is that most thin people just do things differently to what I would if left to my own devices .
Theres two people in my head one is very sensible about food eating and self care and the other is a certified nut job coming to terms with controlling the nut job on a full time basis is hard work but it can be done .

 

[I'm Dun]

A horse should not be pulling one person it must always be two .
The heavier the carriage the more stable it will be it’s safer ,scurrying is for the skilled it’s like the difference between a hack and and a speed class showjumping
Horse pulling uphill is working very hard I watched my weight when I was driving and I drove large horses .

And yet 13hand ponies do driving trials with 2 adults. A good balanced carriage floats along with no effort. I'm disabled and limited in some things but can easily move a 4 wheel carriage myself, including with 2 children in it. Never tried with adults admittedly. I cant imagine a weight that a human being would be alive at, that would be too heavy to drive. Heavy horses will pull a heavy 4 wheel vehicle with 10 passengers fgs!

 

[Goldenstar]

Yes those horses in the past lead miserable short unhappy lives .
I have friends who compete driving ponies and they watch their weights very very carefully .

 

[I'm Dun]

It is a daily battle and it’s hard for those with a uncomplicated relationship with food to understand what it’s like .
It’s like being unshackled from a mad person when you get it under control.

I would not assume that you have a lower base metabolic rate than a thin person I have had mine measured and I came out of a diet with it at 1250 per day higher than I went into the diet with .
My observation is that most thin people just do things differently to what I would if left to my own devices .
Theres two people in my head one is very sensible about food eating and self care and the other is a certified nut job coming to terms with controlling the nut job on a full time basis is hard work but it can be done .

The peer reviewed research says very different sadly. I havent got a link to the research to hand, but this explains it fairly well

https://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/01/magazine/tara-parker-pope-fat-trap.html

 

[lynz88]

Birker - if it helps a friend of mine was probably about your size and she used to ride my horse from time to time. My guy is 16.1 TB - not the particularly dainty kind of TB but still a TB nonetheless. Let me tell you....when she would ride my boy, she rode him far better than I and he probably appreciated that!! She was quite a soft rider who would ride in a lighter half seat.

 

[I'm Dun]

Yes those horses in the past lead miserable short unhappy lives .
I have friends who compete driving ponies and they watch their weights very very carefully .

The ones at Beamish, which are the ones I personally know off, look pretty happy to me.

 

[Goldenstar]

Yea but it’s nothing like the jobs horses did in the past and nothing like pulling adults at speed in competition .

 

[ester]

Horses for courses again isn't it though, going for a drive to the pub is different to doing obstacles and a marathon .
(goes to see how much an attelage coach weighs)

 

[Pearlsasinger]

See I figured we were talking max weight for the hypothetical most weight carrying horse

Right well my 16hh Westphalian Kaltblut, short legs, massive barrel, short back, easily carried my 18st very novice friend at walk and trot for between 20-30 mins over varied terrain. I wouldn't have wanted to put friend on either of the Clydies, although they were bigger (16.3/17hh). The mare loved that occasional job and believe me, if she hadn't enjoyed it we *would* have known. But that mare was a special case. How much do Cavalry horses carry and how long are they on duty for on a regular basis?

 

[Goldenstar]

I think how much work a horse does carrying weight doing different things needs thinking about .
The bigger the fence the heavier the loading on the horses limbs the more important it is to be your correct weight to be fit .
I also think the amount of work done with moments of suspension makes a different in walk the horse is loading three limbs and moving one easier that other paces .

The Calvary horses are a good thing to think about .
They don’t carry the full kit and kerbang every day and they are strong well made ID’s and Draught crosses .
They are conditioned for their work and they are not fat and most have long working lives .

 

[Goldenstar]

The peer reviewed research says very different sadly. I havent got a link to the research to hand, but this explains it fairly well

https://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/01/magazine/tara-parker-pope-fat-trap.html

I don’t need a link to a study I have seen it measured on my own body with my own eyes .
I know I came from losing over three stone with a basal metabolic weight higher than I went in .

 

[coblets]

Good points so far. Just think two more things should also be concerned:
- two absolute novices, so not used to riding lightly, both 18st, will ride very differently if one is a weightlifter made of muscle and the other's weight is due to fat
- comparing Mongolia horses to UK horses doesn't work because most Mongolian horses will get ridden for a short period, and then given a long period of time off allowing them to recover if need be. Whereas a NF here will be ridden most days of the year. Both may be ridden by a tall heavy man.

 

[Charley657]

Sadly right now I am way too big to ride a horse but I'm not offended by any of the comments and agree with a lot of them.

If you are competing your horse in competitions, both of you are athletes and both of you are in training and should be exercising. I can't think of another sport where there are 'fat' athletes competing. I don't say that to offend anyone here, I am not calling anyone here fat, i can't see what you look like and I don't care what your weight is.

Part of the problem in finding suitable weight limits could be because you have people of different height who can all weigh the same and some will look overweight and others people would look fine for their build. People are judging with their eyes. I know I have seen riders where I have thought to myself 'get off that horse' because they have looked too big ie large belly and fat rolls but I don't know what their weight is. Yes they are overweight for their frame but might not have been for the horse.

 

[Sussexbythesea]

Cavalry horses carry and how long are they on duty for on a regular basis?

The Queens Horses have a TikTok account. There was a clip on it a couple of days ago showing the new very fit slim recruits learning to canter - it looked pretty uncomfortable for both men and horses ?. I think the clip has been taken down as there were a lot of negative comments. I can’t seem to find it anyway.

 

[twiggy2]

I do think a lot of this must also be related to horse fitness - just thinking about back in (let's say) Georgian times, when many people rode as transport, and unless you were rich you wouldn't be able to afford to seriously break your horse. Leaving aside the fact that there probably were many poorly treated working horses back then, horses in general must have been very fit, muscled and used to daily hard work. So they'd have presumably been better able to cope with carrying weight than your average "hacked a few times a week" horse today. Also, I wonder whether the average man's riding horse back then (I'm excluding women because women on the whole seem to have been much smaller then) would have been more of a hunter type (if you were rich) or a cob type (for the middle class). Therefore more bone and substance than the many TBs and ISHs around now.

Those are just my thoughts, I don't know how accurate they are - what I need is a historian specialising in the history of the riding horse! Anyone know one?!

I would guess they stayed sounder as they were ridden mostly in straight lines, on varying surfaces and were fit.
I believe the manege has a lot to answer for when it is not a compliment to other work but the majority of the horses work is in there

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

I can't think of another sport where there are 'fat' athletes competing.

Being facetious I can think of a few.. shot put, power lifting, strong man, darts, pool, discus, hammer throw, wrestling, sumo, boxing, rugby.

None of those sports require you to sit on a living breathing animal to compete in it though.

 

[sbloom]

https://www.facebook.com/WeAreRebelfit/posts/2367234540078188

- bit too sweary for work, I love the approach he brings to health and weight.

 

[Charley657]

Being facetious I can think of a few.. shot put, power lifting, strong man, darts, pool, discus, hammer throw, wrestling, sumo, boxing, rugby.

None of those sports require you to sit on a living breathing animal to compete in it though.

Other than sumo wresting (darts is a pub game not a sport in my opinion ) the rest do seem to have some form of athletic build/muscles when I have seen them on tv and even sumo wrestlers work out. Agreed, none of them are on a living breathing animal and expecting it to jump/canter etc.

 

[mini_b]

For those commenting on “how easily a horse did xyz” with someone of a larger weight?
How would you quantify this?
Just because the horse obliged to do so? They are pretty agreeable creatures and we put them through a lot including (not intentionally) saddles they don’t like, bits they don’t like - but when we notice that we do something about it.

pain and discomfort indicators?
If this was of a person that a horse “could easily carry” ie within the 10% range then you would be looking for pain or aggravating issues somewhere on the horse.

I know people find Sue Dyson’s study contentious also but speaking purely about pressure points and pounds per square inch on back muscles in the different sized riders; I’m not sure how it can be argued with.

I watched a video of this plus size rider mentioned up thread, her horses tail was swishing, ears back every time she got behind the movement and jabbed the horse in the mouth and thumped in the saddle seemingly purely because she was not able to “go with”

I am fully aware that non overweight riders will also do this, however she has been riding a long time it would seem so surely she would be past this more or less now if she was “riding fit”
A smaller rider jabbing someone and thumping would be told to get a trainer, stop doing what they are doing and more lessons etc?

her horse is jumping, her horse is cantering. Is it doing it easily? Or do we just choose to overlook those indicators of discomfort for the sake of not upsetting someone.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

For those commenting on “how easily a horse did xyz” with someone of a larger weight?
How would you quantify this?
Just because the horse obliged to do so? They are pretty agreeable creatures and we put them through a lot including (not intentionally) saddles they don’t like, bits they don’t like - but when we notice that we do something about it.

I agree with every word of your post. My boy (prior to me) was hacked for a couple hours across the Downs, once every few weeks with no work in the middle, ridden by a man of 25 stone in a XW saddle when he was a medium at best. He did it without majorly noticeable complaint, to many he would have looked 'fine'. That doesn't mean he was. There is a marked difference between should and could.

I also wonder sometimes re: outward signs of discomfort and what people are looking for. To me, if Jacob has had his ears back, or tried to buck me off etc that would have been a shout for help when whispers go unnoticed, I know I could be uncomfortable for a long time before I start shouting that I am in pain. Anthropomorphising but I think some people are criminal of waiting for their horse to shout before they act, eg: when you see these posts 'my horse is lame but he is still eating and going out to the field, should I PTS' type cases.

 

[Tarragon]

Just a thought, but the Maximum weight limit has to also take into account the riding activity you want to do. The maximum weight a horse can carry doing a gentle walk on easy terrain will be totally different to a days hunting, for example.
So, taking into account:

• The actual weight of the rider
• The fitness of the rider (muscle vs fat, athleticism)
• The riding ability of the rider
• The suitability of the horse
• The fitness of the horse
• The schooling level of the horse for the activity
• The riding activity involved (length of time in the saddle and speed)

So no, virtually impossible to come by a general maximum weight rule, other than common sense

 

[abbijay]

Just a thought, but the Maximum weight limit has to also take into account the riding activity you want to do. The maximum weight a horse can carry doing a gentle walk on easy terrain will be totally different to a days hunting, for example.
So, taking into account:

• The actual weight of the rider
• The fitness of the rider (muscle vs fat, athleticism)
• The riding ability of the rider
• The suitability of the horse
• The fitness of the horse
• The schooling level of the horse for the activity
• The riding activity involved (length of time in the saddle and speed)

So no, virtually impossible to come by a general maximum weight rule, other than common sense

I'm not looking for a general maximum rule I am looking for an absolute maximum - even for a short, gentle walkin straight lines on the best weight carrying horse.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

I'm not looking for a general maximum rule I am looking for an absolute maximum - even for a short, gentle walkin straight lines on the best weight carrying horse.

But even then, it would be easy to find the maximum weight the best weight carrier can take as you keep putting things on top of it until it either collapses or it's bones snap..

You want to know how much the best weight carrier should take before it is either A) detrimental or B) socially unacceptable. Which is a more qualitative argument, B more so than A.

 

[mini_b]

Interesting how comparisons to other sports equipment were made in terms of them “breaking” under a maximum weight and these were generally accepted purely from a safety perspective.

 

[mini_b]

https://www.facebook.com/WeAreRebelfit/posts/2367234540078188

- bit too sweary for work, I love the approach he brings to health and weight.

my husband is overweight.
he is statistically more likely to die younger based on his BMI.
Or his shape (round in the middle)

I love him very much and would much rather have him healthy and alive for years to come rather than in a box early because he couldn’t stop eating crisps. I will absolutely not pander to the notion that all are healthy no matter weight or shape. He knows he is overweight and he is not going to change by me being an enabler.

no ones weight is the business of anyone else at all. Unless you are going to partake in a sport where it really does matter and it becomes both an ethical and a welfare issue.

I’m personally glad to see they are starting to clamp down on obese horses and too big adult riding in the warm up amongst the showing community.

there is uproar when folks use electric Spurs, inhumane bits, anything to the discomfort of the horse which we are CONSTANTLY trying to reduce with well fitting saddles, special anatomical bridles, supplements, massages, better training techniques etc

I don’t see how this is any different.

sorry ??‍

 

[ester]

Interesting how comparisons to other sports equipment were made in terms of them “breaking” under a maximum weight and these were generally accepted purely from a safety perspective.

though cycling I don't think many people give much thought to whether they go over the manufacturers weight limit - maybe it depends on how far up you are/how far you might fall.