Is there (or should there be) a ceiling weight to horse riding

[Winters100]

Winters, would you be taking the same stance if the child's eating disorder had manifested as anorexia rather than a disorder that led to weight gain?

I would still in this case expect the parents to be trying to manage the situation. Obviously it is more difficult in respect of anorexia or bulimia, because it is not simply an issue of putting a healthy meal of appropriate size in front of your 7 year old and not feeding them between meals, but I would not be expecting them to ignore the issue, and any sensible parent would be ensuring that the child had appropriate medical intervention.

In this case, where someone can trace their weight gain back to what they were fed aged 7, it is 100% the responsibility of the adults in control. They purchased the food and fed it to the child. Perhaps if the child would have been fed appropriately as a 7 year old they would not now be 23 stone in their late 20s.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

putting a healthy meal of appropriate size in front of your 7 year old and not feeding them between meals

So is this child not at school? No pocket money? No other access to food at all?

 

[Winters100]

So is this child not at school? No pocket money? No other access to food at all?

At 7 years old with enough pocket money to start gaining weight, and going to the shops alone to spend it? I find this unlikely. And I know what my children eat at school. If the school meals were not healthy, or if I considered portion sizes to be such that a child was gaining weight and likely to become unhealthy, then I would simply send them with a packed lunch, which anyway the oldest 2 have, because they prefer it. Whatever excuses might be made, the fact remains that we are responsible for the health and wellbeing of our children. Allowing a child to start gaining weight at 7, and to reach 18 stone in their mid teens is simply irresponsible.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I think that you underestimate the power of an eating disorder and the mental health issues that cause it.

 

[Wishfilly]

I think that you underestimate the power of an eating disorder and the mental health issues that cause it.

Anorexia is the leading mental health cause of death in the UK. I always assume that disorders that cause the sufferer to binge eat have the same grip on the person suffering.

 

[Tiddlypom]

If the school meals were not healthy, or if I considered portion sizes to be such that a child was gaining weight and likely to become unhealthy, then I would simply send them with a packed lunch

And kids of course do not swap out the contents of their packed lunches with their friends?

You are minimising what can be a very complex issue, which is the danger of being an armchair expert .

 

[McGrools]

Well most of the fat kids i see are accompanied by fat adults and it appears clear to me that unhealthy lifestyles are becoming the norm.we are all being sucked into a very addictive screen habit which leaves little time for heart rate raising activities. Have you seen the queues at mcd’s recently?

 

[mini_b]

Anorexia is the leading mental health cause of death in the UK. I always assume that disorders that cause the sufferer to binge eat have the same grip on the person suffering.

The drive to compulsively starve and compulsively binge eat are as strong as each other.
Both are intertwined also, you can suffer from anorexia but binge eat - it is a common misconception that those suffering do not eat.

EDNOS (eating disorder not otherwise specified) is extremely common.
it covers the overeating/binge/bad relationships with food that bulimia doesn’t. (Binge then purge)

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Anorexia is the leading mental health cause of death in the UK. I always assume that disorders that cause the sufferer to binge eat have the same grip on the person suffering.

Absolutely. I said upthread about a discussion I had with an anorexic and our struggles and the histories that sparked the disorders were almost identical it was scary. Two sides of the same coin was the conclusion we came to and they possibly were the only person who really 'got' my battles. Weirdly both of us had been a bit obsessed with the lyric 'I want to walk in the snow and not leave a footprint' from 4st 7lb ('Too cold here' was another by the same band we both loved). I had only been able to read (well look at as it was photographs) one book for weeks at one point and returned to it in my darkest moments and this was something that she understood. The feeling of having no control, the desperate clinging to anything that gave a sense of having a fraction of control. The crazy lengths we went to to enable that. The highs, the lows, the utter loathing of ourselves and so on. She got it all.

 

[Winters100]

I think that you underestimate the power of an eating disorder and the mental health issues that cause it.

I disagree. I totally understand the seriousness, which is why I would like to maintain a regime where we eat healthy meals together as a family, and each of the children remains a healthy weight with good self esteem and a positive body image.

Aged 7 children can only overeat if we give them too much food.

They do not earn their own money, and they do not go out shopping alone.

If we overfeed children at this age then we set them up for a life of difficulty.

The writer in the post that you referred to did not mention any medical intervention, just teasing by peers. Had there been any serious medical intervention I would assume that it would have been mentioned.

Eating disorders are very serious, and this is why we need to control what our children eat, Children eat the majority of meals at home, and it is within the control of the parent whether or not they eat school meals. Pocket money is also in the control of the parent, as is the amount of any money earned which may be spent at will. They live in our houses so they abide by our rules. Saying 'oh, but it is the school meals' may be a comfortable excuse, but it does not release the parent from their responsibility.

Tiddlypom mentioned the possibility of them swapping lunches with friends. Yes, it can happen, but do I think it han happen to the extent of a 14 year old reaching 18 stone - no. And in all honesty is any child going to swap the tuna salad in my daughter's lunchbox for a packet of oreos? Not really. It is not a case of minimising the issue, rather saying that in doing that, and not tackling it, parents are not doing their duty.

We see our children ever day, we prepare their food and see what they eat. We know if they are gaining or losing weight, and we are able to take action to help them in case difficulties arise. Yes, some children suffer eating disorders, but do we think that the rise in overweight children is due to medical conditions? I do not believe that it is, to me it is more the case of children eating too much of the wrong sort of foods, and it becoming acceptable - for example in this discussion where people have said that a child in the 96th percentile does not need to lose weight.

Sorry but I stand by my view that if your 7 year old is gaining serious amounts of weight it is time to take charge and be a parent.

 

[Wishfilly]

The drive to compulsively starve and compulsively binge eat are as strong as each other.
Both are intertwined also, you can suffer from anorexia but binge eat - it is a common misconception that those suffering do not eat.

EDNOS (eating disorder not otherwise specified) is extremely common.
it covers the overeating/binge/bad relationships with food that bulimia doesn’t. (Binge then purge)

Yeah, EDNOS was my diagnosis- I didn't quite starve badly enough to be anorexic, and I didn't fit the classical definition of bulimia.

I've absolutely felt the compulsion to binge eat, and it is awful.

Absolutely. I said upthread about a discussion I had with an anorexic and our struggles and the histories that sparked the disorders were almost identical it was scary. Two sides of the same coin was the conclusion we came to and they possibly were the only person who really 'got' my battles. Weirdly both of us had been a bit obsessed with the lyric 'I want to walk in the snow and not leave a footprint' from 4st 7lb ('Too cold here' was another by the same band we both loved). I had only been able to read (well look at as it was photographs) one book for weeks at one point and returned to it in my darkest moments and this was something that she understood. The feeling of having no control, the desperate clinging to anything that gave a sense of having a fraction of control. The crazy lengths we went to to enable that. The highs, the lows, the utter loathing of ourselves and so on. She got it all.

That sounds so tough, and I'm so sorry you went/are going through it. I hope you're doing better now.

 

[ozpoz]

I find it madness that parent’s don’t take responsibility for providing healthy meals for their children. It is an intrinsic part of being a parent. Many schools actively discourage sweet snacks being brought to school and children shouldn’t be sharing lunches with each other for several reasons, allergies being one of them. Why would you let a small child dictate menus? It is beyond their understanding.

 

[mini_b]

we are an increasingly sedentary society, junk food is more readily available hence the inevitable upward trend in weight gain.

there has been mentioned a sense of entitlement, the word sport has been tossed around (but this is different if you want walked around the woods for half an hour) but I honestly think if you expect some other creature to carry you around, at least make it easier for them.

This is going to go around in circles about what is and is not acceptable sadly.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Winters - Well I can only say that my parents were singing off your hymn sheet and they did not help, they made it worse. Good intensions paving the road to Hell and all that.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

That sounds so tough, and I'm so sorry you went/are going through it. I hope you're doing better now.

That's kind of you, thank you.

 

[emilylou]

Answering the original question I would say anything above 18 stone is going to be uncomfortable for any horse to carry. Sure, there are horses that could carry that, but not comfortably. So I would put that as a blanket weight limit for riding.
I know if I owned a 17hh ID I wouldn’t want it carrying any more than that, and then, only for sedate activities.
Being overweight, even just a little overweight is unhealthy for us.
Loosing weight is not easy and the modern lifestyle doesn’t help us, and being overweight is normalised as most adults now are at least a little overweight. It’s not up to us to judge others but just because it’s common it doesn’t now make it okay. Just like smoking wouldn’t be any healthier for you if everyone did it.
Of course, larger people can ride and many do ride very well. But would their horses be more comfortable if they were lighter? Yes probably. And are overweight riders becoming a welfare issue? Yes, probably.

 

[EarsofaSnowman]

It's an incredibly difficult, and emotive, issue. The original question is easier to answer (easier, not easy) as there is the health and wellbeing of the horse to consider. But to those who don't think excessive weight should be addressed, is that true of excessive underweight? Starving children is wrong, but morbid obesity is not? Ultimately, isn't healthy the goal?

 

[Winters100]

Winters - Well I can only say that my parents were singing off your hymn sheet and they did not help, they made it worse. Good intensions paving the road to Hell and all that.

I am really sorry that this is the case for you, and I am sure that your parents are sorry too. The reality is that, as parents, we are all just doing our best. I am quite sure that whatever action your parents took was with your best interests at heart. I hope that as an adult you will now be able to get the help you need, and I wish you all the best for that.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I haven't said that weight shouldn't be tackled (under or over). All I am really saying is that it is highly likely (not talking about a famine situation) that there is some form of mental health issue going on. Focussing just on weight doesn't take the mental health issue into account and often intensifies the mental health issue.

So all I'm saying is that you need to take an approach that is working on the mental health issue and treats the weight gain as a symptom rather than the disease. Happiness/self esteem has been talked about for example. I have also mentioned the feeling of having no control over my life being a factor for me. Making changes that would have removed the bullies from my life would have been good too because it's hard to recover when the wounds are still being hacked at.

ETA - in reply to post 257

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Thanks Winters. Being a parent isn't easy and I love my parents very much. I accept that they were doing their best. I think with hindsight they would change a lot of things but sadly no time machine to put that into action.

 

[Winters100]

I haven't said that weight shouldn't be tackled (under or over). All I am really saying is that it is highly likely (not talking about a famine situation) that there is some form of mental health issue going on. Focussing just on weight doesn't take the mental health issue into account and often intensifies the mental health issue.

So all I'm saying is that you need to take an approach that is working on the mental health issue and treats the weight gain as a symptom rather than the disease. Happiness/self esteem has been talked about for example. I have also mentioned the feeling of having no control over my life being a factor for me. Making changes that would have removed the bullies from my life would have been good too because it's hard to recover when the wounds are still being hacked at.

ETA - in reply to post 257

It is interesting to hear your view. Of course we don't know your full story, but without asking you to say more than you are comfortable with, what do you think could have helped you when you were younger? I hope you don't mind me asking this, but it would be good to hear, from the perspective of an adult, what actions by a parent would have helped you overcome these issues.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I wrote a long thing and decided it was too depressing to post.

Short answer - a change of school (carefully chosen) and therapy.

 

[Winters100]

I wrote a long thing and decided it was too depressing to post.

Short answer - a change of school (carefully chosen) and therapy.

Your experience, whatever it was, is not too depressing to post. Even if it contains some sadness it is your experience, and is something that people can learn from. I appreciate that we may have different views on some things, but feel free to PM me if you want to share anything.

 

[sbloom]

No-one would disgree that helping a young child develop a healthy relationship with food is the way to go, but that's not what we're addressing.

Junk and processed foods are now broadly thought to be the biggest issue, but I would say there is general modern life too. We live massively complex lives, now with social media often very publicly, with decisions to be made multiple times a day, and our reptile brains can't evolve fast enough. We live off cortisol which, in many people, causes weight issues in and of itself. Then add in that we seem to be losing executive function skills with each generation especially in certain families. If one or both of your parents has an EF issue, whether from ASD, ADHD, or simply from trauma (there is a theory that at least ADHD, and many addictions including food, come from trauma, see Gabor Mate) then they can't teach you EF skills, and our child care and education systems, especially since the loss of Sure Start, just can't fill the gaps. So it compounds over the generations and we probably now have 3-4 generations that have had declining EF skills. If you can't plan, control your emotions, manage working memory, and all the other EF skills, then managing your food, in the face of difficult circumstances, is going to be nigh on possible.

 

[Gloi]

No-one would disgree that helping a young child develop a healthy relationship with food is the way to go, but that's not what we're addressing.

Junk and processed foods are now broadly thought to be the biggest issue, but I would say there is general modern life too. We live massively complex lives, now with social media often very publicly, with decisions to be made multiple times a day, and our reptile brains can't evolve fast enough. We live off cortisol which, in many people, causes weight issues in and of itself. Then add in that we seem to be losing executive function skills with each generation especially in certain families. If one or both of your parents has an EF issue, whether from ASD, ADHD, or simply from trauma (there is a theory that at least ADHD, and many addictions including food, come from trauma, see Gabor Mate) then they can't teach you EF skills, and our child care and education systems, especially since the loss of Sure Start, just can't fill the gaps. So it compounds over the generations and we probably now have 3-4 generations that have had declining EF skills. If you can't plan, control your emotions, manage working memory, and all the other EF skills, then managing your food, in the face of difficult circumstances, is going to be nigh on possible.

Can you explain ef skills a bit more please

 

[CallMeKate]

I've been pondering this for a while and feel it's time to start a thread and see what people come up with...
I know many riding schools have very low limits for good reasons so I'm not looking to get into that side of it, I'm thinking about private horses.
Is there a weight at which a rider should accept that no horse can safely or comfortably carry them? I follow an "equestrian" on facebook who has a clothing with phrases like "Every Body is an Equestrian Body" and "my horse doesn't care what size i am". While I am all for body positivity and finding the right horse for the rider but I also think there must be a ceiling weight at which a person just has to accept no horse can fairly be asked to carry a rider.
What weight would you think no horse should be asked to take?

YES, my opinion is that there definitely should be a ceiling of 15 % of the horses weight. For a pretty substantial heavy weight draft type horse that would be ~650 kg that would mean a rider would have a max of about 82 kg....now I realise that there will be a few people in denial here who don't want to here a horrible truth. Horses are horses and our newly fat world only creates problems with sore backs and injuries. If it's motivation that you need then surely if you profess to love your horse then make that effort and shed a few kg's....(not easy I fully appreciate, but perfectly possible for most of us I reckon).

 

[sbloom]

https://www.understood.org/articles/en/types-of-executive-function-skills

https://www.drbarbaracohen.com/Podcast

 

[I'm Dun]

Horses are horses and our newly fat world only creates problems with sore backs and injuries.

But does it? There's no decent research to back this up and anecdotal experiences vary wildly.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

No idea if this is of interest to people but I previously typed up some data from five weight carrying endurance tests that were done in the USA in 1919 - 1923.

https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/...d-weight-carrying-tests.670461/#post-12528496

ETA the photo of Mesaoud has gone but he is on the wiki page about the Crabbet stud.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crabbet_Arabian_Stud

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

YES, my opinion is that there definitely should be a ceiling of 15 % of the horses weight. For a pretty substantial heavy weight draft type horse that would be ~650 kg that would mean a rider would have a max of about 82 kg....now I realise that there will be a few people in denial here who don't want to here a horrible truth. Horses are horses and our newly fat world only creates problems with sore backs and injuries. If it's motivation that you need then surely if you profess to love your horse then make that effort and shed a few kg's....(not easy I fully appreciate, but perfectly possible for most of us I reckon).

My substantial Draft horse weighed a lot more than 650kg, even when she was at her ideal weight. Half the problem is that people don't know what different weights (people and horses) look like.