Is this pot hunting??

[Britestar]

[/QUOTE]
I thought BD did a bit of a funny thing during the lockdowns where they banned online dressage outfits from using their tests unless they were officially signed off. i suppose they were wanting some mark of consistent quality so from that POV it makes sense. but at the lower levels its not difficult to knock together a dressage test outside of the BD system.[/QUOTE]

What they wanted was a cut off each test ridden, so not only did they get revenue from selling the sheets, they also got £ from the entries.
This meant platforms had to pay BD twice for using their tests.

 

[teapot]

I was a volunteer at the unaffiliated Cotswold Cup competition yesterday. I was somewhat surprised to see 4* and 5* riders there on horses that have established BE records and these horses did get placings. I fully understand bringing out youngsters at unaffilliated ODE's for experience which is entirely reasonable. Thoughts.....

Define established? Just looking at results from weekend just gone, I don't see any issue in pros competing 5/6year olds or horses with under ten BE runs in an unaffiliated 1m event. Be plenty of amateurs running horses with ten BE runs to their names too.

BE's bloody expensive when you're running ten/twenty at a time...

 

[milliepops]

What they wanted was a cut off each test ridden, so not only did they get revenue from selling the sheets, they also got £ from the entries.
This meant platforms had to pay BD twice for using their tests.

it's a tangent to this thread but i mean, i don't think that's massively unfair, since the online platforms had a monopoly for the whole time that organised sport couldn't go ahead, and also they were wanting to promote the fact that it was BD judges scoring the tests.. there would be no listed judges without the training structure BD runs.

 

[Velcrobum]

PC and RC no longer have the desire to run ODEs like they used to because they are really expensive to hold and a huge time consuming commitment. All the ODEs I used to attend in the past (40 years of living in the same area and 35 years of eventing locally) have disappeared from being held by RC and PC. I just think your point about RC and PC are slightly obsolete because they have fundamentally changed in the last 10 years. Committees quite often do not have experienced enough people to take on such an undertaking especially at RC. In our area the same RC runs the qualifier because they are super experienced and have 2 very experienced people at the helm. No other RC out of 16 in our area would be able to do it and we would risk not having a qualifier. At PC level there are similar issues. PC when I was growing up used to only have area qualifiers at novice level. Now the 1.10m is direct entry for the championship. In our area there is enough enthusiasm to run both PC and RC qualifiers for championships and that's about it. The entries for Area 15 PC qualifiers were pretty low at 80/90/100.

I personally have welcomed the professional unaff organisers into the space held by RC and PC. The difference has been exceptional. You have to ask why Charles Etherington-Smith is running such high quality unaff and not BE. That is a family who is steeped in British Eventing history and knowledge. Why did Great Tew come back to run unaff but dumped its BE? Why do Musketeer and BEDE step up and run at amazing venues. If running unaff at a location like Barbary helps pay the bills then I am happy to see it run for 3 days to support the 3/4*.

For me, moving aside from the whole safety issue which I do understand your point on, the BE calendar is BORING. I do not want to run at Aston 7 times. I do not understand why people keep going back 4x in a year, yet an event on tougher terrain will struggle to get entries and as such will never last as long. I have welcomed the locations for unaff which have been a breath of fresh air.

My entry for Gatcombe was £87 for 100. My entry for Launceston 100 was £103. There will be no difference in quality and in fact the unaff will have a fairer cancellation policy. Unaff isn't a much cheaper option now but every £16 and not paying £250 in membership adds up.

For me BE has the following issues:
Prizes are dreadful. Unaff makes a far better effort.
Qualifying for the champs at unaff are really clear. I hate leagues as I do not run that often but it has made a difference for entries.
The withdrawal refunds are much fairer at unaff
The BE calendar is seriously boring. Its so political about events but I honestly think they should start again with riders being involved. Just because something isn't broken, it doesn't mean it shouldn't change.
BE is too expensive at Grassroots.
One off events should be prioritised because they are fundamentally more expensive to run and they bring the interest to the calendar.

Finally on safety, its just not a concern of the average competitor at 80-100. Its a boring subject that you will never get the majority of competitors to see an advantage in.

Sadly the BE range of events in central UK has become increasingly limited, I can think of 15 venues that have disappeared off the calendar including Great Tew. Hambledon was a great loss to the calendar I seem to recall BE was going to stop them running some classes which would have made the event unviable even with good sponsorship. Some of the venues went because BE was inflexible about when they could run. BE organisers are very protective of "their" slots in the calendar and objections are made if they feel another competition might temp competitors away from their venue. Great Tew was lost when a music festival moved there from Cornbury some years ago, the estate made a lot more money from a festival than a BE event. I suspect they have come back on board this series because they are not constrained by BE.

When I started Eventing that and Dressage were sub-groups of BHS, I joined because of the safety aspect being of the opinion if I was badly spatted I would like experienced care available likewise for my horse. Unaffiliated ODE's did not really occur but everywhere seemed to have a Hunter Trial. Having been involved with organising RC ODE's those are an absolute nightmare as getting volunteers was impossible, changes in Health and Safety have made RC ODE's almost unviable. I agree BE missed a major opportunity by not marketing the grassroots part of eventing. They could have harnessed that group via a specific membership package targeting a distinct group who will never venture above 100 and probably will not even try that. In not marketing that rider group and associated venues that do not want to build or run classes above 100 they have missed a gap that was there for taking.

Personally I feel the BE board is overloaded with vested interests. I hope change might occur with a new pair of hands at the helm.

The BE venues lost are as follows: Aston Stud, Longworth, Purston, Swerford, Great Missenden, Oving, Milton Keynes, Tyford, Lyneham, Gt Tew, Salperton, Lackham College, Hambledon, Grimshaw Hall, Syde Park. There may be others

 

[RachelFerd]

See it would strange to me that unaffiliated eventing be singled out when we have easily available unaffiliated everything else for those of us with lowly expectations. Don't the points made kind of apply to other equestrian disciplines?

Ditto the RC/PC running one day events, I was at one point heavily involved in RC event organisation and at that time we'd have needed about 10 clubs to get the man power to run one which just wouldn't ever happen beyond the 1 area competition held annually- which you can't expect people to be prepared for if it's only a once a year occasion.
I'd actually think it is much safer having professional outfits who know exactly what they are doing an than RC/PC members trying to do it on the smallest number of volunteers they can rally to do so.

I come from nearby Lec, I think when I was 'competing' so 15 ish years ago the only unaffiliated events were a PC one at pontispool (I want to guess silverton)? and stockland lovell running there one in september. And as lec says, now there are none and there's been an awful lot of BE south west cancellations this year.

I feel the same about the other equestrian disciplines too, but eventing is the one where safety is much bigger factor.

I'd also point to the calendar around here - so i'm Cheshire based - and if I want to get out doing dressage or showjumping on a regular basis, there is far more choice in the affiliated calendar than in the unaffiliated one. So clearly the market for affiliated competition in those disciplines isn't being eroded by the unaff offering here. That's probably a combination of factors at play - but whatever is happening, participation is high and the role of the National Governing Body for those disciplines is clearly working.

 

[RachelFerd]

The BE venues lost are as follows: Aston Stud, Longworth, Purston, Swerford, Great Missenden, Oving, Milton Keynes, Tyford, Lyneham, Gt Tew, Salperton, Lackham College, Hambledon, Grimshaw Hall, Syde Park. There may be others

There was a post the other day on #twittereventing group on FB - the list of 'lost events' was nearly reaching the hundreds.

 

[RachelFerd]

Does BE have anything like the ERQI system we have over this side of the Irish Sea? What’s the consensus on that?

No it doesn't, but there is a more basic 'continued performance requirement' which essentially means if you get eliminated XC twice, you have to step down a level and have a qualifying run before you can move back up. If you do that at 80, you have to get reference from a BE trainer to compete again. People have been effectively cheating the system by retiring rather than getting eliminated when things are going wrong.

However, the system is fundamentally pointless if people are then going off and doing unaffiliated runs at the same level, even if they've just been E'd twice out at BE.

My 'kill unaffiliated' argument (for all disciplines) is based around the fact that there is no logical positive reason for it to exist. Its existence is only pointing to problems within the affiliated sphere. Fix the central issues - no need to have any unaffiliated competition of any kind.

 

[ester]

I can think of quite a lot of logical reasons.

 

[RachelFerd]

I can think of quite a lot of logical reasons.

I know it is off-topic for the thread... but i'm genuinely interested as to there being any reasons outside of 'there's something wrong with the way that the current leadership within the affiliated body is doing xyz' .... unaffiliated competition is a curiously British thing it seems.

 

[ester]

I'll come up with a list and come back , won't commit to when as would rather do it properly - which is why I didnt' mention any which I know is a bit annoying!

 

[Velcrobum]

It started being popular centrally when Nigel Taylor started running unaffiliated competitions on the back of BE events at Aston le Walls. Marketed as being able to ride a real BE course at a cheaper price. He teamed up with Harley Equestrian to run a series similar to Cotswold Cup with good monetary prizes a few years ago. Then he built some 70cm courses which got added as well. A niche market missed by BE and a nice earner for organisers. I have heard Nigel talk about the unaff being a good earner over lunch when they had lunches in his house for officials, Dressage Judges and their writers at BE events.

 

[iknowmyvalue]

I've not properly "affiliated" for a few years, but around here I think part of my issue with joining BE will be the lack of events in this area. I don't mind a bit of driving, but for 80/90cm events, I'm going to be much more tempted to go for the places that are under an hour away and run monthly ODEs than to drive 2-3 hours for a BE class...

Though saying that, I noticed that lots more venues are offering BE80 classes in the last few years, which is very attractive to me as a grassroots rider...

 

[Starzaan]

When I was twelve I competed in an unaffiliated ODE run by the Cotswold Hunt. A well known one in the Cotswold calendar, and one I have enjoyed competing in and volunteering at since I was very small.
That year I was in the same section as Lucinda Green on a young horse.
She said my pony was ‘cracking’ and also offered advice about how to ride the tricky drop, steep bank downhill to a very upright wall and a sharp left turn to a long canter towards a skinny.
I have never forgot a word she said, use it to this day, and will never forget how proud I was to be in the same section as her.
I think it can be a wonderful thing, and an opportunity to learn.

 

[Velcrobum]

When I was twelve I competed in an unaffiliated ODE run by the Cotswold Hunt. A well known one in the Cotswold calendar, and one I have enjoyed competing in and volunteering at since I was very small.
That year I was in the same section as Lucinda Green on a young horse.
She said my pony was ‘cracking’ and also offered advice about how to ride the tricky drop, steep bank downhill to a very upright wall and a sharp left turn to a long canter towards a skinny.
I have never forgot a word she said, use it to this day, and will never forget how proud I was to be in the same section as her.
I think it can be a wonderful thing, and an opportunity to learn.

Lucinda Green has always been extremely supportive and encouraging to grassroots riders at BE as well. She has always gone out of her way to help spontaneously in XC warm up, I have witnessed this first hand as a rider but also on the ground as a volunteer. There are a few top level competitors at BE and BD who do spontaneously give advice David Trott is another who will quietly help if he knows you. However there are many trainers/coaches who do not even say hello at a competition when they are there to support another client despite training others at a competition on a regular basis.

 

[ester]

Oli gave my friend some great advice/help when it was all going tits up in a SJ warm up for a BE100, that surprised me as I didn't have him down as one who would.

 

[Pippity]

I know it is off-topic for the thread... but i'm genuinely interested as to there being any reasons outside of 'there's something wrong with the way that the current leadership within the affiliated body is doing xyz' .... unaffiliated competition is a curiously British thing it seems.

For me, I'm not a serious competitor. I might like to wander out one day and have a go at a little crosspole jumping class or an Intro dressage. If I have to jump through hoops of signing up for an affiliated body and registering me and my horse and probably paying extra for the privilege, I'm really just not going to bother - and that's if BS even bother to run a 30cm crosspole class, which I can't imagine they ever would.

 

[Bernster]

Similar to Pip, I don’t compete often enough or at the level to affiliate. I’m generally one to go along to local venues for unaff classes. I do try and go to ones with good courses and arenas, and some of them are BE venues but BE venues are all pretty far away from me These days, which is bonkers as I’m in Herts with lots of horse folks and yards around. But they’re all getting built on for houses ?.

 

[ihatework]

Oli gave my friend some great advice/help when it was all going tits up in a SJ warm up for a BE100, that surprised me as I didn't have him down as one who would.

He’s one of the best for offering genuine help/advise.

 

[RachelFerd]

For me, I'm not a serious competitor. I might like to wander out one day and have a go at a little crosspole jumping class or an Intro dressage. If I have to jump through hoops of signing up for an affiliated body and registering me and my horse and probably paying extra for the privilege, I'm really just not going to bother - and that's if BS even bother to run a 30cm crosspole class, which I can't imagine they ever would.

Similar to Pip, I don’t compete often enough or at the level to affiliate. I’m generally one to go along to local venues for unaff classes. I do try and go to ones with good courses and arenas, and some of them are BE venues but BE venues are all pretty far away from me These days, which is bonkers as I’m in Herts with lots of horse folks and yards around. But they’re all getting built on for houses ?.

To me those aren't 'pro unaffiliated' reasons - they are that it is too expensive for the occasional competitor, because of the way it is structured. I mean, the sub 70cm stuff is probably more appropriate for a training show rather than a competition 'proper'... but I personally see no reason why the affil disciplines can't club together to have an intro membership - super cheap/free - which lets people enter at intro/prelim dressage, 75-85 SJ classes and BE80 across all disciplines. I mean, BD already doesn't require you to be a member to enter an intro/prelim dressage test at an affiliated show, so why not extend that out?? They aren't reasons for specifically needing your competition to *not* be under the broader umbrella of a governing body.

Full sympathy for you in Herts Bernster... not a good area for getting to any decent eventing locally

 

[ester]

For BSJA that is 'club membership' iirc for the lower heights?

 

[RachelFerd]

For BSJA that is 'club membership' iirc for the lower heights?

Sort of. I find the club membership thing a bit odd because they are run at entirely separate shows. I'm not sure why they don't just let club members jump the smaller classes at the C1 shows too. At any rate, it is £30 to register as a rider with no horse reg fees - so way cheaper than the equivalent that i'd pay for my Grade C horse and rider reg (£144 + £83.50)

 

[RachelFerd]

Right, anyway, back to the original question slightly... I've just taken a look at some of the results for the 100 at Crown Farm the other day, and clearly there are lots of horses competing under their stable names (https://www.eventingscores.co.uk/Events/event.php?eventid=1108#Q) Otis, Billy, Finley, Bertie, Wuff, Milo, Lily, Jimmy, Lance, Jonny, Joey.... none of us would have any idea if these horses had BE records or points in a current or previous life. I'm fairly certain there will be no passport identification/confirmation going on. I suspect that most of the use of stable names will be because people don't want a traceable record on their horse... but it would be equally possible to do a bit of hardcore pot-hunting without being found out.

(edited to add - rules do state "Horses must be entered in their full passport name." but i'm not finding the entries totally plausible in that respect...)



That's one of the reasons why I'm deeply uncomfortable about the idea of a series like this, without necessary regulatory structures, offering the kind of prize pot which isn't seen at anything other than the highest levels of FEI competition (where my horse will be vet checked, microchip scanned, national and international registrations in place and everything shipshape!)

 

[Snowfilly]

To me those aren't 'pro unaffiliated' reasons - they are that it is too expensive for the occasional competitor, because of the way it is structured. I mean, the sub 70cm stuff is probably more appropriate for a training show rather than a competition 'proper'... but I personally see no reason why the affil disciplines can't club together to have an intro membership - super cheap/free - which lets people enter at intro/prelim dressage, 75-85 SJ classes and BE80 across all disciplines. I mean, BD already doesn't require you to be a member to enter an intro/prelim dressage test at an affiliated show, so why not extend that out?? They aren't reasons for specifically needing your competition to *not* be under the broader umbrella of a governing body.

Full sympathy for you in Herts Bernster... not a good area for getting to any decent eventing locally

I’ve never bothered to affiliate because I don’t stay in one discipline long enough and transport has always been an issue, but that wouldn’t appeal to me because I want to compete at a decent level. There’s plenty of 1.00m and 1.05 unaffiliated showjumping classes here, I can pop out and do an elementary dressage test and bumble round a hunter trial - ODEs don’t interest me, too long a day and there’s no BE within miles - but I also like to show, do an endurance ride and maybe some Trec, all of which I can do without needing paperwork and extra money.

Unless I had a seriously good horse, I don’t see what I’d get out of affiliation to anything, I can’t travel for area finals, I can’t do comps often enough for leagues and I’m not looking to build a solid sale record for a horse. What’s in it for me?

 

[RachelFerd]

I’ve never bothered to affiliate because I don’t stay in one discipline long enough and transport has always been an issue, but that wouldn’t appeal to me because I want to compete at a decent level. There’s plenty of 1.00m and 1.05 unaffiliated showjumping classes here, I can pop out and do an elementary dressage test and bumble round a hunter trial - ODEs don’t interest me, too long a day and there’s no BE within miles - but I also like to show, do an endurance ride and maybe some Trec, all of which I can do without needing paperwork and extra money.

Unless I had a seriously good horse, I don’t see what I’d get out of affiliation to anything, I can’t travel for area finals, I can’t do comps often enough for leagues and I’m not looking to build a solid sale record for a horse. What’s in it for me?

I guess I come at this from the opposite angle - what's the attraction of not being affiliated (if you ignore costs)? Would it hurt so badly to be registered and be competing under the overarching jurisdiction of a body whose job is to regulate and support the sport?

The other day, on a different part of this forum, people were losing the plot because Kate Greenhalgh had been out showjumping (unaffiliated) under a different name. Obviously loads of outcry about how on earth she'd been able to do that - well, of course she could, because it was unaffiliated - there's no means of reliably controlling who takes part and on what horse. I mean, the individual venue might now ban her, but of course there's no regulation, because unaffiliated=unregulated.

These aren't attractive reasons for spending out to become affiliated - it just boggles my mind that people are happy to have this weird subculture of unregulated competition bubbling away. I do know that I am veeeeeery much a minority viewpoint on this

 

[Bernster]

Am liking the discussion even if slightly on a tangent. ?

But we have this in all branches that I know of, unaff and affiliated versions of activities. I think safety and governance are differentiators potentially but even that isn’t an issue if the venue and organisers are reliable (but I accept it’s more risky/unknown). So for me there’s no obvious advantage to being affiliated - I can do everything I want unaff, and save the membership fees.

 

[Kat]

I don't compete affiliated.

I don't object to anyone who is eligible entering unaffiliated competitions. It is up to the organisers to put rules in place and enforce them. If competitors don't like it they can complain to the organiser, if there is a general feeling that people want entries to be limited the organisers are likely to respond as they want the entries.

Mainly I compete for myself rather than necessarily to win, there's rarely a prize worth getting excited about so if I am beaten by a pro I don't really care, it is more about my score.

As for my reasons for going unaffiliated. Mainly because I only jump teeny tiny jumps. A BE 80 feels pretty ambitious! I considered trying affiliated dressage because I am sick of prelim but few shows offer two novice tests and none offer an unaffiliated elementary. But it looked expensive and complicated and a lot of faff. Why would I bother when entering an unaffiliated competition is quick and easy and normally substantially cheaper.

Leagues and qualifiers don't really interest me as I don't want to do stay away shows and generally do a mixture of things (not just competitions, hunting and pleasure rides too) so I won't be going out every week to the same league.

 

[RachelFerd]

Am liking the discussion even if slightly on a tangent. ?

But we have this in all branches that I know of, unaff and affiliated versions of activities. I think safety and governance are differentiators potentially but even that isn’t an issue if the venue and organisers are reliable (but I accept it’s more risky/unknown). So for me there’s no obvious advantage to being affiliated - I can do everything I want unaff, and save the membership fees.

I am a really sad person and find it all way too interesting. I work in government so perhaps that explains an obsession with governance

I also find it really interesting to read about how other countries structure and regulate equestrian competiton. Like *really* interesting.

The French system is (conceptually at least) my absolute dream. Everything connected up to the same database, NO unaffiliated competition of any type, cheap entry fees (!! the benefit of a truly centralised system is that it actually saves money!), all linked through to their breeding databases, every horse has a performance expectation rating assigned based on their breeding and performance of related offspring.... oh and everyone has to pass exams in order to be able to compete.

Most people probably read all that and feel horrified... I read it and i'm like "yes, these are my people" oh and no doubt it makes it hard to just casually turn up and decide to do a random showjumping class somewhere out of the blue... but that's kinda that point....

 

[Bernster]

Yes, horrifying for me ?

ETA clearly BE, BD and I assume BSJA are trying to capture this with some of their ‘grassroots’ stuff.

 

[ycbm]

I know it is off-topic for the thread... but i'm genuinely interested as to there being any reasons outside of 'there's something wrong with the way that the current leadership within the affiliated body is doing xyz' .... unaffiliated competition is a curiously British thing it seems.

Cost to compete BE is much higher. Some people cannot afford it.

Why should anyone be forced to pay affiliation fees for the administrative overhead of running BE?

It's nobody's business but the owner/rider if they've been eliminated twice and don't want to step down a height. There are plenty of reasons (fear of going into water, silly run outs at a skinny, rider error that only happens under pressure of competition etc) where a run at the same height is the right thing to do.

There are lots of horses happily doing a day's hunting or an unaffiliated 80 who need a sachet of bute a day. I'm slightly conflicted about this one but I can absolutely see the advantages to both horse and rider of a slightly creaky older horse with mileage on the clock giving experience to a more novice rider.

The cheap French fees you refer to are, I think, a result of significant subsidy by the French taxpayer to the equestrian industry? This does not seem fair on the taxpayer to me.

I also understand that my lovely little mongrel whose parentage is unknown but who is a cracking little horse, would be unable to compete at all under the French system. If I'm right about that, it seems just daft.
.

 

[DabDab]

I think one of the biggest issues with affiliated competition is that you pay the same whether you do 4 shows in a year or 100.

Another issue is the faff of joining without a centralised horse passport/registration database.

And then the issue of records that makes some people uncomfortable, when for whatever reason they would prefer to compete without the record being searchable. As you say, even a lot of pros will go out unaffiliated to avoid potentially putting a black mark on a horse's record