Isabell Worth & Wendy

Rowreach said:
Just because that test isn’t as awful as normal doesn’t mean anything.
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I still think that this means something.

However, I really don't like and don't understand what is rewarded and praised in dressage at times. It just leaves me wondering, "Really? This is what people want to see and enjoy watching?"
 
and this very popular youtuber with a young following, who is qualifying and winning left right and centre and who I hope to god isn't influencing the next generation of dressage riders

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Teaselmeg said:
I found her test robotic, I thought the same when she competed Bella Rose.

It's hard to praise a 'better' outline etc when you know she is only doing it to keep the critics happy, not because she has seen the light and wants to improve.
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Incidentally what happened to Bella Rose, is she still around?
 
somewhat unfair of folks on here posting photos of young riders in a moment in time which can easily be identified. You might not like their riding, but this doesn't feel appropriate to me. It's very easy to pull less than ideal photos of horses going BTV or riders getting behind the movement in a frame which are less than ideal and not representative. It's dangerous territory and it makes me pretty uncomfortable to see these shots posted here.
 
RachelFerd said:
somewhat unfair of folks on here posting photos of young riders in a moment in time which can easily be identified. You might not like their riding, but this doesn't feel appropriate to me. It's very easy to pull less than ideal photos of horses going BTV or riders getting behind the movement in a frame which are less than ideal and not representative. It's dangerous territory and it makes me pretty uncomfortable to see these shots posted here.
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I don't know who either of those riders are, or how old they are. No name has been posted and there is no visible sponsor info etc. Presumably the photos have been lifted from somewhere else online, and as the pictures are online they are open to being criticised (their riding, not rude personal comments IMO) provided they were taken with the knowledge of the rider. If they are children then personal comments certainly shouldn't be made and any public criticism IMO isn't called for; but over 16yr olds - and certainly over 18yr olds - know all too well what happens if they compete in public and agree to their image being put online. Cruelty (for example hanging off the horse's mouth) should be called out in a non-personal, factual manner or it will just perpetuate; it should never descend into a witch hunt or character assassination.

I think that it is important to discuss the morals and ethics of competition riding today, and an increase in public/spectator dissent is looking like the only thing that may initiate change as so far there is no sign of it starting from inside the FEI.

I don't think photographs of under 16yr olds should be used on threads like this, largely because as at that age the way they ride is the fault and responsibility of their parents and trainer(s), not themselves. If a trainer consistently trains young riders to ride like this then in my opinion it is they who should be named and criticised, not the child rider.
 
SilverLinings said:
I don't know who either of those riders are, or how old they are. No name has been posted and there is no visible sponsor info etc. Presumably the photos have been lifted from somewhere else online, and as the pictures are online they are open to being criticised (their riding, not rude personal comments IMO) provided they were taken with the knowledge of the rider. If they are children then personal comments certainly shouldn't be made and any public criticism IMO isn't called for; but over 16yr olds - and certainly over 18yr olds - know all too well what happens if they compete in public and agree to their image being put online. Cruelty (for example hanging off the horse's mouth) should be called out in a non-personal, factual manner or it will just perpetuate; it should never descend into a witch hunt or character assassination.

I think that it is important to discuss the morals and ethics of competition riding today, and an increase in public/spectator dissent is looking like the only thing that may initiate change as so far there is no sign of it starting from inside the FEI.

I don't think photographs of under 16yr olds should be used on threads like this, largely because as at that age the way they ride is the fault and responsibility of their parents and trainer(s), not themselves. If a trainer consistently trains young riders to ride like this then in my opinion it is they who should be named and criticised, not the child rider.
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I can easily work out the name of both riders from the context and settings. It's not appropriate.
 
RachelFerd said:
I can easily work out the name of both riders from the context and settings. It's not appropriate.
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Are they children? I assumed they were older teenagers (16+), but we all know what 'assuming' makes you so I probably shouldn't have done so 😂 I wasn't disputing that other people might not know who they were, just that I don't, and I'm not adept enough online to try to work out who they were even if I was interested in doing so. TBH with their faces covered I couldn't tell two riders of the same weight/height on grey horses apart from each other even IRL unless I owned one of the horses, but I suppose if you've seen that exact photo posted elsewhere with a name it is easier.
 
SilverLinings said:
Are they children? I assumed they were older teenagers (16+), but we all know what 'assuming' makes you so I probably shouldn't have done so 😂 I wasn't disputing that other people might not know who they were, just that I don't, and I'm not adept enough online to try to work out who they were even if I was interested in doing so. TBH with their faces covered I couldn't tell two riders of the same weight/height on grey horses apart from each other even IRL unless I owned one of the horses, but I suppose if you've seen that exact photo posted elsewhere with a name it is easier.
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I'm not sure if they're 16 or over, but I don't agree with you on that point anyway - any young riders (or any age rider) seeing their photos being stuck on an equestrian forum and ripped apart are likely to feel pretty damaged by it. If this was photos of active abuse, or a video of a horse being ridden in rollkur that they'd posted online I'd feel differently - we categorically need to stop plucking moment in time captures from people's videos/photos at the mid/lower levels of competition - it isn't fair. And I can guarantee I could pluck equally unpleasant stills out of any of my videos, or any other video posted on H&H.

The original topic of the thread, discussing a well known Olympic level dressage rider is appropriate given their profile, and the broader discussion about modern dressage/dressage judging at large, and the fact that their riding and training has been well publicised over many years.
 
I had assumed that the pictures were taken from videos posted willingly onto open access social media platforms in order to gain recognition/influencer status/sponsorship/social media revenue.

If so, then I'm afraid they can't pick and choose exactly what attention they attract. If the videos weren't public and posted by or with full approval of the rider then it's wrong to comment on them.

I also accepted what we were told that these shots were not just moments in time. If they are, then posting is unfair. If they are typical, then it's not.
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RachelFerd said:
I'm not sure if they're 16 or over, but I don't agree with you on that point anyway - any young riders (or any age rider) seeing their photos being stuck on an equestrian forum and ripped apart are likely to feel pretty damaged by it. If this was photos of active abuse, or a video of a horse being ridden in rollkur that they'd posted online I'd feel differently - we categorically need to stop plucking moment in time captures from people's videos/photos at the mid/lower levels of competition - it isn't fair. And I can guarantee I could pluck equally unpleasant stills out of any of my videos, or any other video posted on H&H.

The original topic of the thread, discussing a well known Olympic level dressage rider is appropriate given their profile, and the broader discussion about modern dressage/dressage judging at large, and the fact that their riding and training has been well publicised over many years.
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Hah. Yeah. There are some crap photos and video of my riding on Facebook. And that’s me choosing the ones that aren’t completely mortifying.

And some of yous are Facebook friends! It wouldn’t be that hard to wind up here, lol.
 
The one I posted is an adult who is 30, the video is in the public domain and it is not a snapshot in time at all, it is consistent and trained for intentionally. Is it not important, should a child come onto this forum, that they see that an influencer who they may be thinking they should emulate is not actually a role model at all?

I am not a spectacular rider by any stretch of the imagination and there are moments in time where I look horrendous, but when it is being posted to a young audience along with a 'this is how you get the great results I am getting, and qualifying for champs and attending these big shows' then it becomes a concern. And just to add, I would never post a child nor a teenager who is in their learning years, I will only ever comment on someone who knows better and/or can do better.
 
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AShetlandBitMeOnce said:
and this very popular youtuber with a young following, who is qualifying and winning left right and centre and who I hope to god isn't influencing the next generation of dressage riders

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Surely this just further proves that the judging rewarding certain styles of riding/training is, to be blunt, most of the issue, particularly for riders on their journey through the levels. What is someone meant to do, who is at the grassroots of the sport, having lots of lessons, taught to ride in a particular way and is then getting good feedback/scores from judging?

Personally myself, having stepped away from competition for a large number of years, I've really committed myself to improving my horsemanship and training skills. But someone neck deep in the competition arena, and wanting to stay there, is probably going to find it harder to make positive changes, especially if what they are doing is 'successful'
 
I’ve always said it’s the judges who are rewarding the extravagant movers withhuge marks while seemingly ignoring the rest of the horse, while a horse with more correct outline and showing a harmonious picture get ignored… after all of the criticism it looks like they may be changing the way they mark . About time!!!!
 
AShetlandBitMeOnce said:
and this very popular youtuber with a young following, who is qualifying and winning left right and centre and who I hope to god isn't influencing the next generation of dressage riders

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Ah, the one who hopped on her too small dun pony and hammered it round in canter after it had been off for 2yrs having a foal? If so I unfollowed her after that as I was disgusted.
 
I'm Dun said:
Ah, the one who hopped on her too small dun pony and hammered it round in canter after it had been off for 2yrs having a foal? If so I unfollowed her after that as I was disgusted.
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Different influencer 🙃 don't ask me how I know this 😂
 
AShetlandBitMeOnce said:
The one I posted is an adult who is 30, the video is in the public domain and it is not a snapshot in time at all, it is consistent and trained for intentionally. Is it not important, should a child come onto this forum, that they see that an influencer who they may be thinking they should emulate is not actually a role model at all?

I am not a spectacular rider by any stretch of the imagination and there are moments in time where I look horrendous, but when it is being posted to a young audience along with a 'this is how you get the great results I am getting, and qualifying for champs and attending these big shows' then it becomes a concern. And just to add, I would never post a child nor a teenager who is in their learning years, I will only ever comment on someone who knows better and/or can do better.
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on a purely legal level - taking a screenshot from a video you don't own and posting it online is a copyright infringement, so shouldn't be done. Linking to a video which has been posted in the public domain would be OK - and would be fairer, given that you can then take away the 'moment in time' aspect of a screenshot.

On the judging note - I've overheard people in BD warm-ups now talking about how judges are coming down harder on horses that are BTV and that they're struggling to get the scores they were once getting. So I think there is actually some change taking place. But equally, judges are not (and should not) be rewarding horses who are in front of the vertical, but hollow and with a dropped back.
 
Isn't the problem with the system that rewards certain things, rather than with the individuals? People will always gravitate towards what helps them to win. The wording of requirements and the judges' interpretation of them can inadvertently produce something cruel and ugly.

So if you find you have done this .1720773273629.png

..then you need to change the requirements and send strong communiques to judges.


(EDITED - Just using that as an example of how judging can cause things to evolve. I don't actually like that before picture much either! And I am of course, not suggesting that everyone will be cruel, just that the "norm" will shift over.)
 
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RWC who is the YT being used as an example is a very different case - she isn’t winning left right and centre if you look up her results. Classes are small and looks can be deceiving until you dig a bit deeper. There is major issues in the way she rides the horse BTV and it’s been pointed out many many times by Pammy Hutton on her FB page and Tattle.

There is a caveat to using photos and images posted online willingly which is fair use.
 
LEC said:
RWC who is the YT being used as an example is a very different case - she isn’t winning left right and centre if you look up her results. Classes are small and looks can be deceiving until you dig a bit deeper. There is major issues in the way she rides the horse BTV and it’s been pointed out many many times by Pammy Hutton on her FB page and Tattle.

There is a caveat to using photos and images posted online willingly which is fair use.
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You are absolutely correct, but the youngsters who follow her and who are the most likely to try and emulate aren't going to have the wherewithal to actually look up her BD record and so will trust her word that coming second and qualifying isn't just because there was only two in the class 🤣

As a side note, Pammy Hutton is one of my favourite people
 
Surely the preconditions for any good productive conversation, face to face or online, is mutual respect and tolerance of different positions?

There are several perceptual positions in regard to competition horse welfare out there, ranging from: 'modern comp dressage is ok, but not with rolkur or cruel training' all the way across the spectrum to the 'domestication of horses was cruel, and still is'.

Look, for example at the range of opinions already shared here.

But I think for horses' sake we need to become better at conversing and listening to each other and I think the tide is turning and people are looking for ways to discuss horse welfare in dressage without ripping into individual riders.

I think there are good, legal, moral, and ethical reasons to consider how we speak to each other, as we also speak for horses.

Can I also say that I don't think its just down to the world community of people who ride, train, and look after horses, as we communicate on line, the other issue is of course, officialdom, and the judging establishment has a role to play. Its very frustrating when we see high marks given for bad riding, its a clearly perceived 'wrong' which understandably arouses strong emotion. Emotions which I think should equally be directed towards the officiators of that individual rider.
 
AShetlandBitMeOnce said:
You are absolutely correct, but the youngsters who follow her and who are the most likely to try and emulate aren't going to have the wherewithal to actually look up her BD record and so will trust her word that coming second and qualifying isn't just because there was only two in the class 🤣

As a side note, Pammy Hutton is one of my favourite people
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Pammy is great - but she's been pretty outspoken herself about the dangers of sharing screenshots as a 'moment in time' is often not representative.

(Also - she's a pragmatist and will pop draw reins on a horse if needed etc. which probably horrifies some of the purists on here)

But on the YTer - I've watched a video. It's not a great picture, but I think it comes from a place of inexperience and horse with some training issues (lots of power, not in balance, running into the contact and curling up) not a deliberate aim to train that way. As others have said - point fingers at judging and training if you will, which is definitely an issue here. However I still think it's wrong to be taking down amateur riders on a forum like this - it's very very different to criticising well known professionals, and I stand by the fact that it's unfair to be pulling screenshots and dumping them on a public forum. I'd also note that this absolutely does not meet any kind of fair use clause re. copyright either.
 
RachelFerd said:
Pammy is great - but she's been pretty outspoken herself about the dangers of sharing screenshots as a 'moment in time' is often not representative.

(Also - she's a pragmatist and will pop draw reins on a horse if needed etc. which probably horrifies some of the purists on here)

But on the YTer - I've watched a video. It's not a great picture, but I think it comes from a place of inexperience and horse with some training issues (lots of power, not in balance, running into the contact and curling up) not a deliberate aim to train that way. As others have said - point fingers at judging and training if you will, which is definitely an issue here. However I still think it's wrong to be taking down amateur riders on a forum like this - it's very very different to criticising well known professionals, and I stand by the fact that it's unfair to be pulling screenshots and dumping them on a public forum. I'd also note that this absolutely does not meet any kind of fair use clause re. copyright either.
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Pretty sure it does fit fair use. Lots of YouTubers will use short clips of other peoples videos, discuss them a bit, share another small clip etc and clearly state its under fair use. They don't get pulled and YouTube will pull anything even remotely dubious re copyright.
 
I'm Dun said:
UK copyright says this
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That's for criticism of the work. I think with a video of riding that would include criticism of an off centre or fuzzy video but not of the riding of the person in the video.

UK copyright (I looked it up yesterday after Rachel's comment) says that any size piece of copying breaks copyright if that piece produced in its own right would hold copyright. And since the still from a video would definitely fall into that category, being then a photograph, I reluctantly concluded that Rachel is right.

I suspect Facebook allows it only because the holders of the copyright don't complain.
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I'm Dun said:
UK copyright says this
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You might be able to argue a criticism point, but I really don't think it would stand up in this context. I work in gov Comms and would strongly advise against.

But also back to my main point - anyone who thinks that doing this is ok, isn't ok with me - it's nasty.
 
ycbm said:
That's for criticism of the work. I think with a video of riding that would include criticism of an off centre or fuzzy video but not of the riding of the person in the video.

UK copyright (I looked it up yesterday after Rachel's comment) says that any size piece of copying breaks copyright if that piece produced in its own right would hold copyright. And since the still from a video would definitely fall into that category, being then a photograph, I reluctantly concluded that Rachel is right.

I suspect Facebook allows it only because the holders of the copyright don't complain.
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Fb is like the Wild West but its YouTube I see it, and they defend their use to YouTube and it stays so it must be open to interpretation somehow. I watched one last night and she was talking about another YouTuber, showing clips and stills, some of which were edited, heavily critiquing them, and saying it was under fair use so was allowed. I've seen one that was done about Tara as well, same thing. Raleigh and Link is another one who is constantly tearing down people and using their videos to do it.

I don't think criticism of the work would be specific to a video edit or the way a movement was performed or similar, because the video and the person in it and what they say and do, is the work.

You probably need to be a copyright lawyer to understand it properly, but it is currently common practice on YouTube, who are so hot on copyright, they close accounts down for the short use of copyrighted music.
 
My guess would be that it's simply too expensive for individual people to defend their copyright. Music copyright has big money behind it.
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