Its like standing on a precipice

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

I feel this, and it's one of the reasons I have taken a break from horses. Having always had to buy cheap horses too comes with its own set of worries as they usually come with baggage, plus my type of horse being a big warmblood you're almost asking for trouble. My last ownership was wonderful while it lasted but I was aaaalways saying 'does he look right behind', 'I have a feeling', 'is he quite right' and eventually when he did show some lameness and I investigated it it was career ending.

That being said I also do think we micromanage horses when they become off. When I was a kid, if the childhood pony was a little off then they went out to chill in the field untouched for a couple of weeks - nothing better than Dr Green, and 99% of the time they came back absolutely fine. Sometimes I think going in guns blazing with all the diagnostics, cold hosing, 'x' amount of treatments and box rest and managed turnout etc etc is the worst thing. You end up with a neurotic owner and a neurotic horse. I think a hell of a lot of issues could be sorted out by taking shoes off, chucking out in a field with good grass and re-assessing in a months' time.

 

[Birker2020]

That being said I also do think we micromanage horses when they become off. When I was a kid, if the childhood pony was a little off then they went out to chill in the field untouched for a couple of weeks - nothing better than Dr Green, and 99% of the time they came back absolutely fine. Sometimes I think going in guns blazing with all the diagnostics, cold hosing, 'x' amount of treatments and box rest and managed turnout etc etc is the worst thing. You end up with a neurotic owner and a neurotic horse. I think a hell of a lot of issues could be sorted out by taking shoes off, chucking out in a field with good grass and re-assessing in a months' time.

Good point.

 

[milliepops]

the acreage is a big problem i think because it necessitates daily poo picking, and if you have shared fields then that's a headache for YOs to police. And putting in a track requires more investment than a few bits of electric fencing. I don't disagree that small paddocks is not ideal, but as the customer, in an area without masses of choice, we have little influence in what's offered.

 

[sbloom]

the acreage is a big problem i think because it necessitates daily poo picking, and if you have shared fields then that's a headache for YOs to police. And putting in a track requires more investment than a few bits of electric fencing. I don't disagree that small paddocks is not ideal, but as the customer, in an area without masses of choice, we have little influence in what's offered.

Absolutely. This is where social media is helping, the brilliant track system yards are getting more and more publicity, there is Equicentral too...so many better ways than keeping horses in open individual paddocks half the day and stable the other half.

 

[Widgeon]

So it's just that it's another horse that injures yours, rather than them injuring themselves, but those injuries happen less often.

Sadly I think that the risk (or perceived risk) to YOs is maybe too high - our YO has almost everything on individual turnout because she once had a livery PTS after a kick on the hock from another horse. The whole experience was clearly so horrible for her (I've never asked about it) that now she only really does individual turnout. And she is very much someone who believes in horses being out 24/7 all year round where possible, and never being without company. Perhaps that's just an inevitable consequence of living in such a litigious society, but it's sad. I think mine would be very happy living in with his girlfriend next door.

ETA mine is a fatty too so if we had one of these fabled track systems near us I would be right in there camped at the gates with my references in hand!

 

[milliepops]

Yeah it's probably human nature that a freak thing disproportionately influences how you assess risk going forward.

In many years of keeping many horses, I have had one kicked in the field and that was (a) avoidable due to poor YOs poor introduction method, and (b) not that significant in terms of outcome
I have had several injure themselves just being tits, and most accidents have been fence-related. a couple of livery horses at one yard degloved themselves on electric rope, one of mine was chased through rope and cauterised her own wound with it, and so i would now never allow the stuff near my horses.... yet others use it all the time and would be horrified by my cheap tape!

 

[Birker2020]

But the only research done in this area shows that injuries are more common in individual turnout unless the paddocks are huge. So it's just that it's another horse that injures yours, rather than them injuring themselves, but those injuries happen less often. I've had a horse PTS because he was attacked by another horse, but I understand the data, and my next horse was on the largest most mixed turnout possible EXCEPT at the first yard where my other horse had been attacked, because they had a terrible introduction policy, the basic cause of the incident.

Worth thinking about....and track systems solve many of the objections coming up, for instance strip grazing not required.

I'll be honest I don't really understand what a track system is. Is it where you have a paddock and electric fence off the inside to make a track around it? What purpose does it serve? I assume you then bring the track in to give more grass?

Not sure our YO would be happy with all the bits of electric fencing around, she said the other day that the reason she'd bought mains electric fencing with a less visible green round wire was because there wouldn't be tons of white fencing tape lying around everywhere which I can understand from her point of view, its not pretty to be honest.

My paddock is about 250ft x 80 ft or 85m x 25m depending on how you work. I feel that is sufficient for one horse given that when the grass starts coming through its really good quality grass. At the moment I give hay also. He's out from about 9am - 4.30pm

 

[sbloom]

And smaller fields have more fencing...and more turns if they hoon...

Seriously, I watched my first horse being attacked by a newb (literally turned out with 8 others his first morning on the yard), I blame only the introduction policy, not group turnout.

 

[sbloom]

I'll be honest I don't really understand what a track system is. Is it where you have a paddock and electric fence off the inside to make a track around it? What purpose does it serve? I assume you then bring the track in to give more grass?

Not hard to find out https://www.total-contact.co.uk/blog/2017/7/22/paddock-paradise-horse-track-system, also look up Equicentral.

https://www.facebook.com/gawsworthtracklivery
https://www.facebook.com/abbottsviewlivery

There are also track livery groups and pages to help people find these yards.

 

[milliepops]

Other than the extra work and £ (!) i really like having 2 on a livery yard because it does give a lot more freedom in how you choose to keep them. there is no worrying about yours being the last one left out etc and I've mainly been able to choose how to organise the field space i've been allocated.

I have 2 separated at the moment while they get to know each other but if the 4yo doesn't sell soon i will bung them in together so they have a bigger area to cavort in.

 

[southerncomfort]

Track systems are likely to be a large part of the answer. They seem to have got to grips with safe introduction policies.

Did individual turnout come first, or did people buying "nicer" horses and not being able to face the odd field injury come first? There is a piece of research that shows that the smaller the turnout area the greater the risk of injury - they don't need other horses to injure themselves but somehow owners prefer this, it feels like no-one's fault because it's the way they're kept that's at issue.

I remember when I was a kid/teenager that almost all livery yards simply split the land in to 2 big fields - one for summer and one for winter - and the horses all went out as one big herd. Fights or disagreements were very rare and their was plenty of space for them to keep out of each others way.

The horses went out all year round. I remember on one yard that if you left your horse in for any period of time the YO would come and give you the third degree. To her mind horses belonged outside and stables were for emergencies only!

 

[Birker2020]

Not hard to find out https://www.total-contact.co.uk/blog/2017/7/22/paddock-paradise-horse-track-system, also look up Equicentral.

.

I know its not hard to find out just didn't have time to read, thanks for the links, will look later.

 

[shortstuff99]

I have had £30k worth of injuries including 2 operations from other peoples horses kicking mine, I will never again turn out with other liveries horses. My own share a field together.

I have had 1 bad injury from rope electric fencing and will never use that again.

1 of mine refused to hack for 10 years (does a bit now) and so has done all of her ridden work on a surface and is still sound at 14 (touches wood now ?) so I'm not sure it is the surface per se or the type of schooling.

 

[RachelFerd]

I think I've been pretty lucky in finding yards with good turnout situations over the years. I won't go to anywhere doing individual turnout - but to be honest, I don't see a huge amount of individual turnout. There are a few that are turned out individually at my yard now, but really because they are in restricted turnout injury recovery mode.

Current yard has 4 horses in my field (2 are mine) on 2.5 acres. Genuinely all-year, but I don't turn out 24/7 in the summer as it isn't big enough for that. Given that we're tacked onto the side of a major city, this isn't bad.

Previous yard had 10 horses in 10 acres.

One before that had 10 on 12 acres in winter, and a different 12 acre field in summer....

None of the yards are 'fancy' but always felt like good places to keep horses.

 

[tallyho!]

Track systems are infinitely adaptable and mimic a natural movement instinct of all horses, even fancy ones. A lot healthier for horses and the grass. It takes a bit of time to set up but not as long as it takes to get your head around it at first. Once you do, you won’t go back, it saves so much time if you have a lot of horses.

 

[Birker2020]

I'm lucky I can afford to keep my wonky ones but I really, really miss riding and am realising that I have zero confidence in finding myself something sound to buy.

This to a tee. Had 7 horses in my life, the first one -from a private home - total disaster!
The others five, all from dealers, three (indirectly and directly from the same dealer) super horses - riding them the next day, competing within a fortnight, yes I was 20 years younger but even so!

Then new boy, again from a private home - total disaster to date.

If I were to sell and buy another there's no telling that I'd get anything more suitable, I could end up with another walking vets bill.

Anyway we are getting there, rider starting him off again for the third time today, I long reined him last night, he was a total dude. He's back on myoplast to try and maintain this topline. I just need to stop eating and shift this weight, he needs to put more on.

Can't wait until the 5th April, this is D-day when it either goes to plan when I sit on him, or I have a crashing fall and its all over. Dreading it and looking forward to it in equal measures (sitting on him again after 6 months - not falling off).

 

[McGrools]

When I got the phone call from the vet in Cheshire to confirm that Lari had passed his vetting, one of the things he said to me was that during the winter he got so many calls from clients whose horses had got lameness issues because people used the menage much more in the winter than the summer. So he strongly advised that I didn't go in there more than a couple of times a week.

interesting! Hopefully vets will also prescribe fitter horses.
I think horses generally arent as fit as they used to be also.
too many folk seem to think a 20 minute walk hack counts as riding. It takes longer to tack them up with all the boots and unnecessary accessories!

 

[McGrools]

That being said I also do think we micromanage horses when they become off. When I was a kid, if the childhood pony was a little off then they went out to chill in the field untouched for a couple of weeks - nothing better than Dr Green, and 99% of the time they came back absolutely fine. Sometimes I think going in guns blazing with all the diagnostics, cold hosing, 'x' amount of treatments and box rest and managed turnout etc etc is the worst thing. You end up with a neurotic owner and a neurotic horse. I think a hell of a lot of issues could be sorted out by taking shoes off, chucking out in a field with good grass and re-assessing in a months' time.

100%. Shoes off. Turnout. Have a look in a few weeks.

 

[McGrools]

the acreage is a big problem i think because it necessitates daily poo picking, and if you have shared fields then that's a headache for YOs to police. And putting in a track requires more investment than a few bits of electric fencing. I don't disagree that small paddocks is not ideal, but as the customer, in an area without masses of choice, we have little influence in what's offered.

There are places where poo picking isnt a thing! I know the place next to me has never even thought of poo picking their 20acre plus fields and there has never been a horse/ worm related incident in my 40 year experience. All horses wormed twice a year, never been a problem.
the smaller the paddock the more noticeable the poop is.
I doubt very much that large farm grazing is ever poo picked.

 

[McGrools]

This to a tee. Had 7 horses in my life, the first one -from a private home - total disaster!
The others five, all from dealers, three (indirectly and directly from the same dealer) super horses - riding them the next day, competing within a fortnight, yes I was 20 years younger but even so!

Then new boy, again from a private home - total disaster to date.

If I were to sell and buy another there's no telling that I'd get anything more suitable, I could end up with another walking vets bill.

Anyway we are getting there, rider starting him off again for the third time today, I long reined him last night, he was a total dude. He's back on myoplast to try and maintain this topline. I just need to stop eating and shift this weight, he needs to put more on.

Can't wait until the 5th April, this is D-day when it either goes to plan when I sit on him, or I have a crashing fall and its all over. Dreading it and looking forward to it in equal measures (sitting on him again after 6 months - not falling off).

I really hope and pray that you have every success. Fingers crossed ??

 

[milliepops]

There are places where poo picking isnt a thing! I know the place next to me has never even thought of poo picking their 20acre plus fields and there has never been a horse/ worm related incident in my 40 year experience. All horses wormed twice a year, never been a problem.
the smaller the paddock the more noticeable the poop is.
I doubt very much that large farm grazing is ever poo picked.

No, i meant small acreage makes it a necessity. I have had paddocks smaller than a long arena in the past. Maintaining a stocking density like that without poo picking would be impossible. I don't poo pick my big field, we section off/harrow as necessary.

 

[McGrools]

It's part of the reason I don't have my own. However, the more I see on integrative/holistic approaches the more I am swayed away from getting lost in vet diagnoses, box rest etc. It's not to say that vets aren't crucial, and a good one is worth their weight, but we need more than vets. Helping horses to lower their "boiling point" - environmental, physical, emotional, training challenges that lump on top of each other until the horse has no head room until it reaches 100 degrees and physically or behaviourally breaks. We don't have all the answers yet but addressing these and allowing the horse to be more horse has to be part of prevention and rehab.

I agree that some vets arent helping the situation. They seem super keen to prescribe box rest and more box rest and restriction and confinement. Which leads to explosive horses and paranoid owners. Way too much micro management. Its a vicious circle.

 

[SO1]

Absolutely on my yard it seems like the vet is there most days. ? .

I expect it is the way horses are managed with lack of decent hacking and traffic too much arena work and schooling they get more wear and tear and aches and pains. I also think that people have more knowledge and possibly more likely to notice stiffness and lameness in an arena especially if someone watching than if out hacking.

The last two years just seems to be endless vet visits rehab box rest and stress with the constant worry something might go wrong.

Pony not quite right again afteŕ 9 months of rehab and up to 12 minutes of trot. Looks like a different leg. ?. He is 20 now so maybe bit of arthritis hopefully not another soft tissue injury not sure I could go through more box rest he is only just going out in a small pen after nearly 9 months of box rest and controlled walking. I just want him to have proper turnout again we do have all year herd turnout on our yard.

Vet coming on Monday I can't be there due to work commitments but he is on part livery so one of the staff can trot him up.

The other thing I struggle with is time off work for vet appointments.

 

[MystieMoo]

Absolutely on my yard it seems like the vet is there most days. ? .

I expect it is the way horses are managed with lack of decent hacking and traffic too much arena work and schooling they get more wear and tear and aches and pains. I also think that people have more knowledge and possibly more likely to notice stiffness and lameness in an arena especially if someone watching than if out hacking.

The last two years just seems to be endless vet visits rehab box rest and stress with the constant worry something might go wrong.

Pony not quite right again afteŕ 9 months of rehab and up to 12 minutes of trot. Looks like a different leg. ?. He is 20 now so maybe bit of arthritis hopefully not another soft tissue injury not sure I could go through more box rest he is only just going out in a small pen after nearly 9 months of box rest and controlled walking. I just want him to have proper turnout again we do have all year herd turnout on our yard.

Vet coming on Monday I can't be there due to work commitments but he is on part livery so one of the staff can trot him up.

The other thing I struggle with is time off work for vet appointments.

I hope you get to the bottom of the problem and pony is okay. Super stressful for you. I find I stress even when things are going right, in case something goes wrong!

 

[Burnttoast]

I rode other people's horses for thirty plus years before I was able to buy my own, and I remember thinking (with friends' experiences in mind) 'just buy something sound!' (obviously it's not as simple as that..) Anyway, I lost my head, bought a project (many homes, bad feet, difficult on the ground/psychologically a bit screwed up, physically wonky enough to pass a 5-stage but not to stand up to regular work), and retired him 18 months later. Goodness the sensation of relief when I stopped worrying about how rehab was going, or not going. The strange thing is I think that because he was mine I didn't want to have that struggle. I've helped with plenty of rehabs before but without the emotional investment. When it came to the Wonky One I felt much happier just doing what made him happy. We ended up buying a field, installing a permanent track/yard system and having a couple of retirees. My main horsey aim now is to eliminate mud. Nearly there this winter!

 

[Wishfilly]

its more the acreage i think that is key. If the horses have plenty space there is very rarely kick injuries in my experience. I’m talking 10 acre plus fields. Horses should be on the move and have loads of room to run and roam. I hate seeing them confined to little paddocks where 10 strides of canter would see them at the end to end.
the more we confine them then surely the weaker their tendons, ligaments and hooves are getting?

It still depends how the land is managed- if there are pinch points around the gate or around certain areas/resources there can still be conflict regardless of the space. Realistically, I don't think a lot of DIY liveries can function at the sort of stocking density you suggest.

Equally, I think tiny turnout areas like you describe are not the ideal.

There's got to be a happy medium, where livery doesn't cost the earth, but horses are also given adequate and suitable turnout- but as land prices are only going to increase, I think this situation will only get worse.

Although I'd like large herd turnout, I prefer single horse turnout for the reasons you mentioned. I'm sure there is more turnover of liveries these days so more potential for the coming and going of new horses - I was at the same yard from the age of 5 to 16 and remember hardly anyone leaving or arriving, same people year in year out. Seems to be lots more movement these days, well in our area certainly.

I agree, I think a lot more people have to move from work or rent and so have to move because of that. I don't think large herd works well when horses are always chopping and changing.

Obviously large-ish stable herds are the ideal.

 

[SO1]

I think also horses used to often have winter breaks as floodlit arenas were no so common. Having 3 or 4 months off properly helped heal any niggles and reduced wear and tear.

A lot of people ride all year now.

I also think there is a more of a rehab culture whereas horses were turned away or retired or buted up for light work. Rehab is intensive, hard work and expensive and can be soul destroying seeing your horse on box rest for months on end. Modern veterinary science is very different and I think horse owners are different. There are lot of people on livery who can only afford one horse so all their hopes and dreams are centred around one horse. Most people cannot afford a retired horse and a ridden horse or have the time to look after more than one.

This is my first veteran as my first horse as an adult. It seems one thing after another the last couple of years. He is 20 as he is a pony rather than a horse I presumed he would keep on going for ages but who knows. It is emotionally draining.

 

[windand rain]

Trouble is that horses cooped up in stables run around and injure themselves far more often than those that live out 24/7. The track system is great even a grass track works well for most horses even laminitics if you get it right. The biggest issue is horses and ponies are not fit are too fat are over fed and under exercised. There are very few horses and even fewer ponies that can survive on ad lib hay no or unproductive exercise without serious consequences. As with humans being obese increases the risk of limb damage joint damage heart damage and cancer not to mention laminitis. The current pollution levels also increase th risk of breathing problems again exacerbated by being in a stable that cannot be well enough ventilated. Arenas are an unknown but the slippage underfoot and the lack of hard bone/tendon developement would indicate they too can increase risk. I do agree though that herd turnout is best served by established and stable herds with few new introductions unless very carefully managed

 

[honetpot]

I learnt to 'ride' on the scruffiest yard, one very old frying pan saddle fits all, where they all lived out, and have worked on a very smart, well managed, money no object yard, with trips to the big shows, and lessons practically every day. I now have my own scruffy yard, with sometimes some, 'well bred' animals on it, and really all they need is the basics, with consistent exercise, hopefully hacking and not going around in circles. Turnout with company, forage, water, all the rest is something humans use as a crutch to make them feel better, and perhaps in control., It's no use riding the perfect O, if like the very smart looking 'dressage horse' I saw, complete with double, a saddle like a bucket, and rider with spurs, it can not walk down a village back road, looking like the rider was sitting on a bottle of pop shaken, and ready to explode. The warmblood stud I visited on an open day seemed to have some of the most badly behave young animals I have ever seen, they made racing young stock look chilled and sane.
One of the major changes I have seen over the last forty years, is that horses are often kept in pens, solitary with no natural exercise, they stand around with no room to even have the odd trot, unless its in a circle. Studies have shown that horses need exercise to develop limb strength, bone is laid down and remodelled in response to stresses placed on it. How can an animal that perhaps spent twelve hours in a 12x12 box, and then the rest in a pen, be expected to be in a good enough condition for stressful work. Hunters who were turned out all summer in a large field started their exercise in August, they often spent had weeks before you cantered, and that was in a straight line, for a short distance.
I have never owned anything that has been lame, maybe that is luck, but even the elderly TB remained sound. I work on the principle that you exercise the horse 95% of the time, in preparation to work it, and riding in an arena is work. If you can not provide natural exercise, you replace it with managed exercise. People should be thinking about couch to 5k, and apply that progression to their horses exercise plan.

 

[emilylou]

My main horse has within the last year, been diagnosed with navicular and in the last week hind suspensory desmitis. The navicular was incidentally diagnosed after X-rays on his front feet following an abcess and the suspensory, only after I insisted on a scan after slight swelling on his right hind, no lameness. I’ve had him since he was 3, broke him myself. For most of his life he has lived out in a herd on 24/7 pasture. He’s worked hard, hunting and eventing, but hasn’t ever really been lame. Both diagnoses haven’t made him lame, only the abcess. He’s off work now, has been for the last 8 months to let his feet rest. Luckily I have others to ride.
I’d say a combination of hard work and confirmation flaws (top heavy, flat feet) have bought us to this point. But in ‘the old days’ he probably wouldn’t have had those diagnoses. Just ‘doesn’t like hard ground’ and a marginally thicker right hind tendon.
My plan is for him to hopefully stand up to hacking and light hunting after rehab. But even now he is technically a sound horse you could crack on with.
I’m not sure the changes in management have a huge amount of sway. More the increase in education and the fact horses are less disposable. Previously, if your horse wasn’t up to the job you’d chuck it in the field and buy a new one that could. Now, we are more inclined to stick with the horse we have and hope they will come right with careful management and duct tape!