Ample Prosecco
Still wittering on
That sounds fab DD!
Joe Midgely Clinics
- Thread starter Ample Prosecco
- Start date
stangs
Well-Known Member
Am I? I'm fully aware that you can get 'big' without harming the horse at all, and that big can mean anything from using your voice to lifting a flag. But if someone's going to say 'make it happen with whatever it takes', then they can't just gloss over the extent that the 'whatever it takes' might have to go.
You mention that horses must go when asked. I agree with that. But, let's take a scenario where your horse has decided to plant in a road with traffic coming, or is napping and backing up into a ditch. It's a technique they've learnt to get out of work, and the behaviour's potentially dangerous for both of you. Do you get off, 'de-escalating' because you know the horse will follow if you dismount, or do you escalate in the saddle, because the horse has to learn to always go forward? How far are you (generic you) willing to go before you call it a day? Surely anyone who says to 'make it happen with whatever it takes' has to be able to answer that question.
Horses in learned helplessness have the benefit of sympathy from the trainer. Your post #298 also shows empathy for the school sour horse. So neither of these horses face escalate, fine. Any good horseman will tell you that.
But the horse who chooses to ignore you lives a different life. You say that "Joe makes a huge issue of the horse having a choice" but also that "if a horse 'gets it' but is ignoring you - or actively challenging you, then you need to step up [before they] learn to ignore aids." So does the horse, who ignores you because they can, still get the choice to ignore you? If you're escalating, you're telling them that they can't keep choosing to ignore you, no?
I appreciate that I must sound awfully pernickety, and I realise that a horse ignoring you is a risk. I have nothing against any of the good trainers mentioned in this thread, and I'm sure they're good at what they do and not abusive. It's just that you hear this stuff (about always asking nicely first, giving the horse a choice in that way, etc) all the time. I've training manuals from the 20s-30s, both Western and English, that say the same thing. Countless NH trainers will repeat this; dog trainers often say the same. But then the book will continue about the extent you will have to go if the horse ignores you, or videos, that make sickening watching, come out about these trainers dealing with that one horse that pushed them over the edge (often at clinics, come to think of it).
This is what makes me uncomfortable about lines like "whatever it takes" and "as much as necessary". Yes, the trainer's not advocating for always escalating, but they're also not providing clear guidelines about how far escalation should go before you call it a day, or when to 'give in' or de-escalate. It gives them a loophole for those 'deliberately wilful' horses that just keep fighting back.
Again, I'm not saying that that's what any of the aforementioned trainers are doing, or will ever do, and I'm not saying that people who escalate pressure are horse abusers in the making. It's just that the majority of aggressive trainers did not start by being aggressive; they were saying these same lines once upon a time too. And it's just made me a bit of a cynic.
Ample Prosecco
Still wittering on
I think it’s always worth questioning approaches. In theory, and also live in the moment, in practice. And it’s also important to be able to change tack and take a step back. That’s where good trainers excel, and where ‘methods’ fall apart.
If something that normally works well to get a horse more responsive ( Ie pressure/release and rewarding the try) isn’t getting anywhere then there’s some missing piece of the puzzle. Horses aren’t wilfully unco-operative, they have no ego and they aren’t trying to win or outsmart you. They behave according to how they feel. So if there is an easy way out for them, they’ll take it. And if they aren’t taking it then there’s something else going on. The skill is in figuring out what. That’s the bit I can’t do. I need Joe to tell me what’s going on. Then I can (more or less) apply the ‘fix’.
For example, Lottie never took the release offered in canter. So Joe stopped his first strategy which had been putting pressure on her mouth and waiting for her to soften, so he could release and reward. He didn’t just escalate. He stopped and thought about it. Then surmised that she simply believed that was how canter was so was not looking for a release, or even noticing the mini releases he offered her. She would have cantered with a tonne of pressure on her head till the end of time, not realising there was another, nicer way. So he had to try another way. Which he did.
Those phrases (make it happen, insist etc) are designed to solve one problem. (Ineffective, unclear riding/handling). Taken too literally they can mean something quite different. And become an excuse for abuse. And you’re right we need to guard against that.
Hence being back to the problems of ‘slavish devotion to a method’ rather than thoughtful application of a training tool in context. Which you might then ditch in favour of a different tool depending on the responses of the horse.
If something that normally works well to get a horse more responsive ( Ie pressure/release and rewarding the try) isn’t getting anywhere then there’s some missing piece of the puzzle. Horses aren’t wilfully unco-operative, they have no ego and they aren’t trying to win or outsmart you. They behave according to how they feel. So if there is an easy way out for them, they’ll take it. And if they aren’t taking it then there’s something else going on. The skill is in figuring out what. That’s the bit I can’t do. I need Joe to tell me what’s going on. Then I can (more or less) apply the ‘fix’.
For example, Lottie never took the release offered in canter. So Joe stopped his first strategy which had been putting pressure on her mouth and waiting for her to soften, so he could release and reward. He didn’t just escalate. He stopped and thought about it. Then surmised that she simply believed that was how canter was so was not looking for a release, or even noticing the mini releases he offered her. She would have cantered with a tonne of pressure on her head till the end of time, not realising there was another, nicer way. So he had to try another way. Which he did.
Those phrases (make it happen, insist etc) are designed to solve one problem. (Ineffective, unclear riding/handling). Taken too literally they can mean something quite different. And become an excuse for abuse. And you’re right we need to guard against that.
Hence being back to the problems of ‘slavish devotion to a method’ rather than thoughtful application of a training tool in context. Which you might then ditch in favour of a different tool depending on the responses of the horse.
Ample Prosecco
Still wittering on
I hope I indirectly responded to your points but to be more clear: horses seek peace and are naturally cooperative . If they aren’t then something has happened to make them resent or fear people. Or they didn’t understand the question. Or they are physically or psychologically unable/unwilling. All of that matters too. Or should. If a trainer loses their temper in a clinic then that’s another problem. Emotional neutrality matters too. You can’t think clearly and reason out what is happening if you are emotionally dysregulated.
CanteringCarrot
Well-Known Member
Well, I view "whatever it takes" as whatever it takes to allow the horse to understand and ultimately, respond. That doesn't necessarily mean escalation or force. It means I have to find out what works for this horse, and which methods are going to be the best, most productive, and ultimately produce a good partner. Whatever it takes means to me that I'm flexible. I understand that not every horse will respond exactly the same way, or take the same exact path. I do whatever it takes for that particular horse. That does not equate to force, harming, or escalation. It doesn't equate to me applying pressure until they hopelessly submit. It purely means that I'm open to different roads to get to the same destination. I'll do whatever it takes in that what it took for the last horse, it might not take for the next horse.
Ideally before I've gotten to the scenario in the road, the "go" button would be firmly installed. In theory the horse wouldn't have ever learned that technique. However, we don't live in an ideal world, and we also work with living things.
If it comes down to pure safety, I'm going to do whatever it takes to keep everyone safe. The horse will ultimately appreciate that too vs a situation where they got hurt. So if I have to hop off in that instance, I will. I then know what my homework is.
I did buy a horse that actually had that habit, and it took some retraining and careful steps before I put us into certain situations. I had to reinstall forward, I had to give him good experiences, and I had to not set us up for failure, initially. I could go into a long explanation about that one. You couldn't apply too much pressure, so you had to remain calm, and presistent. It was interesting because what worked for that horse, wasn't how I would've addressed it with one of my other horses. If I had taken a one size fits all or absolute approach, failure would've been inevitable. Or maybe he would've "given in" but not in a way that would've been constructive re our training.
DizzyDoughnut
Well-Known Member
He's a lovely boy now he's come out of his shell although he's no longer the plod I bought he's found forward and has a surprisingly big flowing trot considering how chunky he is, previously it was more of a shuffle if he really had to, I'm just happy that he's so obviously more happy with life now.
shortstuff99
Well-Known Member
I ran a clinic today with Joe and we all had a great time! Will try to do something a bit more in depth tomorrow.
Strangely the very spicy Spanish potato became super chill and his best mate. The Baby Spanish (Bean) tried to take his head off (after biting him)
ETA and then was very good!
Strangely the very spicy Spanish potato became super chill and his best mate. The Baby Spanish (Bean) tried to take his head off (after biting him)
ETA and then was very good!
Ample Prosecco
Still wittering on
Can’t wait to hear about it x
TPO
🤠🏴
I thought this was really interesting [& it shows him keeping everything "low"]
fb.watch
The tiniest things can create the most frustrating problems. A had a theory with Stormzy here, that he was trotting (without being asked) because of... | By Joe Midgley Horsemanship | Facebook
The tiniest things can create the most frustrating problems. A had a theory with Stormzy here, that he was trotting (without being asked) because of...
fb.watch
Ample Prosecco
Still wittering on
That’s our yard! And a lovely example of someone thinking it through not using a ‘method’.
DizzyDoughnut
Well-Known Member
I thought this was really interesting [& it shows him keeping everything "low"]
The tiniest things can create the most frustrating problems. A had a theory with Stormzy here, that he was trotting (without being asked) because of... | By Joe Midgley Horsemanship | Facebook
The tiniest things can create the most frustrating problems. A had a theory with Stormzy here, that he was trotting (without being asked) because of...
I had to watch that a couple of times before I even noticed what he did!
Also I think I might have nearly bought that horse last year or one that looked remarkable similar also called Stormzy but ended up going with another one that the same guy had advertised at the same time. Hope he's getting on well.
Ample Prosecco
Still wittering on
Stormzy was bought last year so I assume same horse. Joe has overseen his education ever since. He was an anxious soul, but is doing fab x
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
I thought this was really interesting [& it shows him keeping everything "low"]
The tiniest things can create the most frustrating problems. A had a theory with Stormzy here, that he was trotting (without being asked) because of... | By Joe Midgley Horsemanship | Facebook
The tiniest things can create the most frustrating problems. A had a theory with Stormzy here, that he was trotting (without being asked) because of...
The answer's easy though isn't it? You generally use an overhand grip on a lunge whip to whip a horse, not an underhand grip. That's a very observant, clever and therefore also anxious (in the wrong hands) pony.
.
TPO
🤠🏴
Tbh I didn't think b3cause even when I was "english" I rarely carried a whip and lunged "properly"
Good catch!
DizzyDoughnut
Well-Known Member
So pleased Stormzy is doing well, I often wondered where he ended up, so pleased he's obviously found a lovely home.
I've just realised Joe has a website, never even thought to look till TPO posted the video above. Has anyone else subscribed to his channel? I've just seen that for £7.99 a month I could get access to all his videos and also online coaching where you can send in a video each week. I think that's what I need, someone to watch what I'm doing and see what I'm doing wrong or right. Often I think I'm doing something when what I'm actually doing is not what I think I'm doing if that makes any sense. Seen as I can't get me and my pony to any clinics with someone like Joe without a very expensive 4 hour ferry trip, video might be the next best thing.
I've just realised Joe has a website, never even thought to look till TPO posted the video above. Has anyone else subscribed to his channel? I've just seen that for £7.99 a month I could get access to all his videos and also online coaching where you can send in a video each week. I think that's what I need, someone to watch what I'm doing and see what I'm doing wrong or right. Often I think I'm doing something when what I'm actually doing is not what I think I'm doing if that makes any sense. Seen as I can't get me and my pony to any clinics with someone like Joe without a very expensive 4 hour ferry trip, video might be the next best thing.
TPO
🤠🏴
I didn't do the feedback/lesson aspect but did subscribe for a while. It was good value for money IMO
The sound isn't great on some of the earlier videos but still ok
The sound isn't great on some of the earlier videos but still ok
DizzyDoughnut
Well-Known Member
Great, thank you. I'm going to sign up, for that price even if I don't get on with it I've not really lost anything and hopefully will have plenty to gain instead.
Ample Prosecco
Still wittering on
Another fab Joe lesson with both Lottie and Mouse.
Lottie
The eventing season is over and we are going back to basics for winter. Can never do too much foundation work. Especially with a horse with so many holes. So ran through walk/ halt/walk, steering, flexions, front end/kind end, bend and soft feel. All feeling pretty established. So to take it up a step, I was being asked to choose which leg to time up with on a circle. To get each leg in turn working harder (stepping across the opposite leg) to get her much more sensitive and responsive to each leg. First inside front, then outside front, inside hind and outside hind. Then counter bend with outside front stepping across, then follow bend round the other way. but keep same keg (now inside front) stepping across. Bit of a mind-meld but got her engaged and led to a few steps of self carriage.
Also used counter bend to establish the right shape for haunches in then swapped legs to maintain haunches in which made sense to her. All just slowly building my ability to communicate with her in more and more ways, and to move each leg separately. Then using that to choose a lead in straight line canter transitions. Which is a work in progress…..
Mouse
The lovely shire I’m riding knows nothing!! So we are establishing all the buttons. Forward, back, sideways, bend, flex, soft feel. She is really coming on. And today , for the first time, we cantered! The ground shook
No pics of Mouse today but these were the other day. Focusing on forward with soft feel.
Lottie
The eventing season is over and we are going back to basics for winter. Can never do too much foundation work. Especially with a horse with so many holes. So ran through walk/ halt/walk, steering, flexions, front end/kind end, bend and soft feel. All feeling pretty established. So to take it up a step, I was being asked to choose which leg to time up with on a circle. To get each leg in turn working harder (stepping across the opposite leg) to get her much more sensitive and responsive to each leg. First inside front, then outside front, inside hind and outside hind. Then counter bend with outside front stepping across, then follow bend round the other way. but keep same keg (now inside front) stepping across. Bit of a mind-meld but got her engaged and led to a few steps of self carriage.
Also used counter bend to establish the right shape for haunches in then swapped legs to maintain haunches in which made sense to her. All just slowly building my ability to communicate with her in more and more ways, and to move each leg separately. Then using that to choose a lead in straight line canter transitions. Which is a work in progress…..
Mouse
The lovely shire I’m riding knows nothing!! So we are establishing all the buttons. Forward, back, sideways, bend, flex, soft feel. She is really coming on. And today , for the first time, we cantered! The ground shook
No pics of Mouse today but these were the other day. Focusing on forward with soft feel.
Attachments
BallyJ
Well-Known Member
I keep seeing this thread and reading with interest! Do you think he'd be able to help with aggression/territorial issues?
Have a very stroppy mare! She's being scoped tomorrow, but keen to help her and my poor yard owner who faces the brunt!
Have a very stroppy mare! She's being scoped tomorrow, but keen to help her and my poor yard owner who faces the brunt!
Ample Prosecco
Still wittering on
I personally think he can hekp with pretty much anything! But you can only ask.
BallyJ
Well-Known Member
See what tomorrow brings then will give him a shout! My friend used him previously, and now has a horse that parks at the mounting block which amazes me every time!
shortstuff99
Well-Known Member
Yes he can as he did some work with one of mine recently that gets very protective of her stable.
BallyJ
Well-Known Member
How is she now? Has it made a considerable difference?
shortstuff99
Well-Known Member
I still have to work on it but now there is a way to de escalate her and have her become less reactive.
CanteringCarrot
Well-Known Member
Can you elaborate on this a bit more? I'm trying to figure out how this would work/why this would work. I'm probably just missing something.
shortstuff99
Well-Known Member
I think its is the doing counter shoulder in and then changing back to true bend has you in the position for travers.
ETA changed renvers to counter shoulder in as I had a brain fart
Ample Prosecco
Still wittering on
It looks like this. Sound up to hear what Joe is saying.
Ample Prosecco
Still wittering on
So there was a full counter flexed circle before the turn. I cut a bit too much off.
CanteringCarrot
Well-Known Member
BallyJ
Well-Known Member
Given the all clear on her scope! Which is good news!
Now starting to work on the fact that she is just abit mean
Will message Joe and see when he is available!