Cortez
Tough but Fair
I actually know Dr Bennett, and yes I've re
ad her book. Don't agree with a lot of it, but never mind that, we're still friends
.Traditional Spanish & Portuguese bits are always fixed shanks. The type that I mostly use above.
Joe Midgely Clinics
- Thread starter Ample Prosecco
- Start date
ad her book. Don't agree with a lot of it, but never mind that, we're still friends.Traditional Spanish & Portuguese bits are always fixed shanks. The type that I mostly use above.
Cortez
Tough but Fair
This is a Doma Vaquera "pigeon neck" curb, action very like a spade - there are actual spade port bits in use also.
Cortez
Tough but Fair
This is a ring bit, used by the Romans, and still in use in North Africa. I've ridden with this one in Morocco......very carefully.
tristar
Well-Known Member
i ride vaquera perhaps half the session on my oldest horse, he prefers it, but then he is bred for the job, tres sangres, anglo hispano arabe, and hispano arabe are the horses i have mostly seen D V not P R E.
i do not use a curb or spurs, he has natural inclinations that make it easy, he takes you, offers, a very special little man indeed
in fact most of the doma moves he will do from the legs and seat alone, the feeling is the mouth is left alone, just think and away you you go, often you go sideways when not meaning to!, which makes for sensitivity and awareness around how you move on the horse and sitting quietly or you might get something you were not expecting, but mainly its the reactivity in those types of horse, sharp, intelligent, waiting on the aids for instruction
i never think about special tack, it all about the horse itself
i do not use a curb or spurs, he has natural inclinations that make it easy, he takes you, offers, a very special little man indeed
in fact most of the doma moves he will do from the legs and seat alone, the feeling is the mouth is left alone, just think and away you you go, often you go sideways when not meaning to!, which makes for sensitivity and awareness around how you move on the horse and sitting quietly or you might get something you were not expecting, but mainly its the reactivity in those types of horse, sharp, intelligent, waiting on the aids for instruction
i never think about special tack, it all about the horse itself
Cortez
Tough but Fair
Tressangres: hot hot hot....but great horses for the job 
Caol Ila
Well-Known Member
Joe seemed to think that the hackamore training was very suitable for Iberians. It certainly feels easier on a horse who naturally carries themselves off the forehand. About a mllion years ago, I tried it out on Gypsum, back when we were living in Colorado. It was a thing at our yard. Quite a few people were playing with bosals. I did not get very far. She was a dressage-trained horse, who would have been about 11/12 at that point, and her conformation was a bit pants. Heavily built forehand, lightly built hindquarters, and loooong in the back. That meant she had a strong tendency to go splat on the forehand. The really good bridle horses you might see a trainer like Buck bring to a clinic were compact little QHs with big, powerful hind ends. When you had a constant contact on a snaffle, like we all learn in dressage, you could glue her together, but the type of self-carriage required of the hackamore horse was beyond us.
My next attempt was Fin. That was short lived. You don't see many Highlands doing this. He occasionally tries to take over the steering in any bridle. In the bosal, he could succeed. That wasn't ideal.
Hermosa might occasionally question steering decisions but doesn't try that hard to hijack it. She also has a lot of natural uphill balance (I guess most PREs do) and doesn't go splat in downwards transitions. You can get them off your seat and don't have be that good to keep her off the forehand in the process and get that aircraft-landing feel. She's there naturally. I spent years on Gypsum trying to get trot-walk and trot-halt transitions as good as Hermosa's.
Fin, despite being a compact little guy with a huge hind end, absolutely throws himself on the forehand in downward transitions. You feel the whole horse go thunk and his entire weight drop onto the front end. To get him to not do that, you have to be hyper-aware of your seat and leg, really pushing him through and asking for that active hindleg. It doesn't always work. He can sit beautifully -- you can feel it when descending steep hills -- but he doesn't see why he has to do that in the arena.
My next attempt was Fin. That was short lived. You don't see many Highlands doing this. He occasionally tries to take over the steering in any bridle. In the bosal, he could succeed. That wasn't ideal.
Hermosa might occasionally question steering decisions but doesn't try that hard to hijack it. She also has a lot of natural uphill balance (I guess most PREs do) and doesn't go splat in downwards transitions. You can get them off your seat and don't have be that good to keep her off the forehand in the process and get that aircraft-landing feel. She's there naturally. I spent years on Gypsum trying to get trot-walk and trot-halt transitions as good as Hermosa's.
Fin, despite being a compact little guy with a huge hind end, absolutely throws himself on the forehand in downward transitions. You feel the whole horse go thunk and his entire weight drop onto the front end. To get him to not do that, you have to be hyper-aware of your seat and leg, really pushing him through and asking for that active hindleg. It doesn't always work. He can sit beautifully -- you can feel it when descending steep hills -- but he doesn't see why he has to do that in the arena.
tristar
Well-Known Member
Tressangres: hot hot hot....but great horses for the job
what size would you say the average vaquero horse is cortez?
one i have bred is 16. 2 hh tres sangres, high prop T B got the impression they are not often that big? but do not know, hard to tell when they are ridden i find
Cortez
Tough but Fair
Used to be about 15.2hh, there are bigger ones about nowadays, 16 - 16.1 average I'd say.
The Xmas Furry
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TPO
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So, is Joe just not the typical type in that neck of the woods? A lot of the way he trains just seems like common sense or how it's supposed to be, in a way.
Granted, in Germany many of the clinicians I have ridden with seem to prefer force over lightness and really getting into things.
I'll have a second go at this since I accidently sent the reply along with my reply to Shortstuff.
I think the main issue is that common sense isn't a flower that grows in everyone's garden! A slightly kinder take is that you can't know what you don't know. I'd imagine that most people are doing what they consider their best; even if it doesn't quite look that way to anyone else.
In the UK someone would only really have contact with horses if they wanted to have contact with horses. They are a leisure item on the whole so unless you want to be around them then want to know more, learn and be open no one is going to chap on your door to make those things happen. I used to see a fair bit of it on livery and I read a few posts on here where people have a "poor me" attitude about a lack of trainers/opportunities/ways to make things go right. It *is* there; maybe not in the medium that you'd like but these days information is so easily accessed be it from online shopping, websites, magazines, books, video streaming or spectating at clinics.
In other countries it seems to be a bit easier to be immersed. My limited experience in Australia was that everyone "country" could start a horse, perhaps not through feel initially but there was a time proven way of doing things to gentle a horse. Back in the day it was pretty brutal with "breaking" taking literally and parts of that still exist*, but when I was there in 2003 it was round pen work and teaching pressure / release. At that time Monty Roberts was a big deal back in the UK and Parelli was kicking off, when I asked all these Ringers, who were doing what MR & PP were doing (and had trademarked!), they'd never heard of them. Not a single one of them had heard of those trainers, "natural horsemanship", or read a book on horse training; it was just what you did. There were literally hundreds of horses so if you messed one up or it wasn't ready they just got chucked back out and brought in the next round.
*I worked with someone a few years older than me when I was on my first cattle station who came from a dressage and racing background, so very "english". Horses were taught to "hard tie" (ie not to anything breakable) on the stations and they wore rope halters. If a horse had been started right they knew about pressure and release, along with ground tying, so being tied to the metal fencing of the cattle yards was no biggie. If anything happened to make a horse pull back you were to get behind them straight away and drive them forward so that they'd find the release [in the rope pressure] and stand. Getting to my point, said person eventually left cattle stations and went back to living in NSW with "pet" horses. She bought in a few youngsters and one day called me while teaching one to tie. I couldn't figure out what was going on but turned out she'd hard tied this yearling to a metal container and left it there to fight it out and figure out the release itself. This poor thing was wrecking it's head mentally and neck/poll/back physically while it struggled. I'm sure that you can imagine what I had to say but she wouldn't take it on board, I was a soft pom (when throwing out insults they don't differentiate between scots and english!) etc. Now she's made this whole thing up herself, she didn't do it in english/racing/dressage and we didn't do it on the stations but some folk just have to take things too far. This was her being "cowboy". So just proves that you can take a person to knowledge but you can't make them think (or even be decent). This was someone who "loves" horses. I feel like I've spiralled again but I promise that this is relevant to points that I plan to make later in this War & Peace post...
I only have second hand experience of ranching in America but it's a similar tale that there are so many horses you can't help but learn with so many going through your hands, either to start or as part of your team for work. In the UK there just isn't anywhere or any situation to get that type of experience. Perhaps starting <2yr olds in racing?
So your average UK horse owner has one horse and invariably wants to ride that horse and crack on. There are so many external factors pulling people in so many directions, as well as so many opinions, that I guess in many situations it's hard to see, or value, "horsemanship" over being a dressage rider, eventer, whatever it is that they want to be good at.
I think that is why trainers like Joe are overlooked and deemed not necessary. I hope @Ambers Echo doesn't mind me saying but having "followed" her for years it's my opinion that Joe has made the biggest improvement in her riding, and therefore her training, in a relatively short space of time. However what "eventer" would generally go to a horsemanship trainer over a dressage/jumping coach? I think AE has always stood out on here for being open to new things and different ways. I've really enjoyed the posts about spectating at/participating in clinics with Buck Brannanman, Mark Rashid, Tik Maynard and Guy Robertson. It was because of those posts that I bought Tik Maynard's book; In The Middle are Horsemen. In it he talks about "cafeteria horsemanship". He was fortunate enough to be able to take time out and go train in Europe with dressage trainers/riders, eventers in the US, a "cowboy" and so have you. He then handpicked the good/what worked out of each and applied it to his training.
The upside of this "cafeteria horsemanship" is that you are expanding your toolbox and can have a variety of ways to pick from depending on what you need in any given situation. Ideally this would be what everyone would do along with cross training. The downside is that how can you pick the good if you don't have that knowledge in the first place, and most importantly, how do you know when to use X instead of Y.
I think the bottom line is that it isn't straightforward and can be difficult and frustrating at times. Again, I think that's where people like AE should be commended because they have always been open to more and/or different. I don't think it's been an easy path to navigate either because on the plus side of being open and trying new things you have the opposite side where sometimes you need consistency and you need to stick with something and see it through; not everything at the cafeteria buffet is compatible. I hope I'm not speaking out of turn and feel free to shut me up AE!
That's kind of my point, it *is* there for the taking but you have to get yourself out there to get it. There are people who have a thirst for knowledge and/or improvement, there are people who have a problem for every solution and there are those who "know enough" and have closed to the door on ever needing more. I keep trying to find more of the first type to try and build a tribe, even if it's mainly online, although I've found a few RL people too! ha ha I found the third type to be the most common on yards, because I'm slow on the uptake if people asked for advice/opinions I would stupidly give them and get mildly excited explaining about groundwork/saddle fit/etc and offering up links, books, dvds, clinics to spectate at but zero interest. I mean if you want to mooch about on a weak horse with flippers for feet and badly fitting tack no one can stop you but I personally can't get my head around people who "love" their horse/horses not continually wanting to do better for them iykwim.
Going back to the australian who hard tied incorrectly. She knew there were other ways, she knew that there were kinder/less stressful & damaging ways but still picked that way because it was the easiest for her. Literally tie the horse up and go. If a horse stood well from the go they'd spook them so they would pull back and then have the "opportunity to learn" how to find the release...
People are going to people which is probably partially the reason that people like Joe aren't that common (trying my hardest to keep on track!) because anything other than the first kind of person isn't going to be interested. There is more "fun"/kudos to be had doing other things.
There are probably quite a few people "like Joe" from a training perspective but they aren't/don't want to make a living from it and the idea of hosting a clinic would be a nightmare for them. But because they aren't really on anyone's radar it takes a fair about of networking, listening, showing up and kissing a few toads to find them. They aren't going to be neatly served up with a website and schedule to arrive at anyone's door.
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I still think there is quite a divide with western trainers doing english stuff. Joe trained with Chris Cox, got a place on his training farm and ultimately won a scholarship to continue his training with Chris. Visa issues stopped that so he came back here and set up on his own. He was really young (& still is) so I guess it's been a process for him too learning as he goes, changing and what not. I remember Tarrsteps posting, and we messaged about it, about a Big Name Trainer (John Lyons) changing up his training methods. He'd been a big more gung ho with starting horses and had written books, given clinics etc. I think it was as he got older he changed it up to more into the groundwork to make the getting on much smoother and there was a big uproar from his followers (of which there were lots) because they felt cheated he'd sold them one thing then changed to another. That was a well known, established trainer facing that so I can imagine starting out and figuring it as you go is another stress too which is perhaps why you don't see so many people willing to put themselves out there?
Joe obviously has a western slant and there are other western trainers doing similar and starting horses in similar ways but a lot of them are competitive so their focus is then on comp prep, reining etc. So that cross over to english training isn't really there from a trainer or client POV.
There are other trainers up here who go to America to shadow BNTs but because they don't do anything themselves (show or go to clinics) no one knows what they can do other than take their word that they're a good trainer. I'm very much of the opinion that you don't need a competition record to be good but I do think if you're claiming to do or be X, Y or Z you need to have some proof. Be it videos working at home, horses/riders you've trained or what not. Name dropping isn't quite enough.
Total Horsemanship, pre covid, had a lot of good horsemanship trainers coming over. They organise the Buck clinics, Dave Stewart & I'm 98% sure Jeff Saunders came over too. Of a similar ilk to Joe there's Guy Robertson (communication is terrible/non existent. There was a whole weekends worth of clinic participants in Scotland wanting to book him, he was up here anyway and posted that they were looking to fill his time. Two years ago they called to say they were in a layby on their way up and would call to arrange details and they've never been heard from since. Possibly still in the layby!? In a similar vein I contacted them ~6yrs ago about sending Chip to him, they were going to call me back with details and I'm still waiting... I'm a slow learner so booked into a cattle clinic this year with them, obviously with Chip trying to die on me I had to cancel it. I emailed as soon as I knew we wouldn't be attending and asked if they'd be doing them up here next year. ZERO acknowledgement of my email but they advertised my space that night and filled it. I know the deposit was non-refundable and that's fine but it just feels a bit mean to keep deposits of filled spaces (I didn't ask for it back) and to not even acknowledge receipt of my email let alone reply to say if they'd be running the following year. This mug and their money are easily parted but it won't be going in that direction ever again); Jason Webb; Michael Pearce; Richard Maxwell; Sean Coleman all spring to mind.
If they are the "big name" trainers you can bet there are a load more doing just as good a job but not quite as well known, that's where local knowledge & networking comes into it. You do have to make an effort to find and go to clinics, just to watch, and talk to people to find the lay of the land. I would say that from the western side I've found that everyone is always very willing to talk! Back to that cafeteria thing of knowing who/what to listen to and who not to.
The Edinburgh group that I've found aren't competitive and are solely into horsemanship. The "leader" is from europe so she has a good knowledge of excellent trainers who aren't known over here and she organises clinics for them. They bring a couple of english based trainers up, Clive Johnson is up monthly from March - October and western rider/trainer Oliva Lochhead is usually up at least once a year (she rides and trains english too). She's brought Rouven Krauer (Swiss-American) & Bernd Hackl (Barvarian) over for clinics too but it's so hard finding participants. Both sell out all over Europe and are very big deals but people won't take a chance on them over here. Both have spent a long time training in America and have been very successful all over. I know for sure that Bernd sells out massive arenas but here you're lucky if 10 people show up to watch. The germans think we are mad! They've also contacted Guy and Joe several times to get the "lay by" and zero response so they've stopped trying which is very sad for everyone who wanted to train with them. From a business POV it makes no sense to be ignored a ready made clinic where participants are lined up, days are filled and you just need to rock up and teach (& are in the area anyway).
So there are people out there plugging away trying to bring good trainers to the UK / Scotland but it is a hard slog. There was a spectator recently who decided she didn't like what she was seeing so left and sent an emailing wanting the £10 spectating fee back. You literally can't win with some people.
*SHORT ANSWER*
Yes, Joe is excellent and yes there are others like him but you probably have to put a bit of work in to find them.
You'll all be relieved to know that the postman has literally just dropped the Buck Brannaman "Groundwork" book through my door so I'll be busy with that for a while instead of taking threads wildly off topic and blethering a load of nonsense.
Joe obviously has a western slant and there are other western trainers doing similar and starting horses in similar ways but a lot of them are competitive so their focus is then on comp prep, reining etc. So that cross over to english training isn't really there from a trainer or client POV.
There are other trainers up here who go to America to shadow BNTs but because they don't do anything themselves (show or go to clinics) no one knows what they can do other than take their word that they're a good trainer. I'm very much of the opinion that you don't need a competition record to be good but I do think if you're claiming to do or be X, Y or Z you need to have some proof. Be it videos working at home, horses/riders you've trained or what not. Name dropping isn't quite enough.
Total Horsemanship, pre covid, had a lot of good horsemanship trainers coming over. They organise the Buck clinics, Dave Stewart & I'm 98% sure Jeff Saunders came over too. Of a similar ilk to Joe there's Guy Robertson (communication is terrible/non existent. There was a whole weekends worth of clinic participants in Scotland wanting to book him, he was up here anyway and posted that they were looking to fill his time. Two years ago they called to say they were in a layby on their way up and would call to arrange details and they've never been heard from since. Possibly still in the layby!? In a similar vein I contacted them ~6yrs ago about sending Chip to him, they were going to call me back with details and I'm still waiting... I'm a slow learner so booked into a cattle clinic this year with them, obviously with Chip trying to die on me I had to cancel it. I emailed as soon as I knew we wouldn't be attending and asked if they'd be doing them up here next year. ZERO acknowledgement of my email but they advertised my space that night and filled it. I know the deposit was non-refundable and that's fine but it just feels a bit mean to keep deposits of filled spaces (I didn't ask for it back) and to not even acknowledge receipt of my email let alone reply to say if they'd be running the following year. This mug and their money are easily parted but it won't be going in that direction ever again); Jason Webb; Michael Pearce; Richard Maxwell; Sean Coleman all spring to mind.
If they are the "big name" trainers you can bet there are a load more doing just as good a job but not quite as well known, that's where local knowledge & networking comes into it. You do have to make an effort to find and go to clinics, just to watch, and talk to people to find the lay of the land. I would say that from the western side I've found that everyone is always very willing to talk! Back to that cafeteria thing of knowing who/what to listen to and who not to.
The Edinburgh group that I've found aren't competitive and are solely into horsemanship. The "leader" is from europe so she has a good knowledge of excellent trainers who aren't known over here and she organises clinics for them. They bring a couple of english based trainers up, Clive Johnson is up monthly from March - October and western rider/trainer Oliva Lochhead is usually up at least once a year (she rides and trains english too). She's brought Rouven Krauer (Swiss-American) & Bernd Hackl (Barvarian) over for clinics too but it's so hard finding participants. Both sell out all over Europe and are very big deals but people won't take a chance on them over here. Both have spent a long time training in America and have been very successful all over. I know for sure that Bernd sells out massive arenas but here you're lucky if 10 people show up to watch. The germans think we are mad! They've also contacted Guy and Joe several times to get the "lay by" and zero response so they've stopped trying which is very sad for everyone who wanted to train with them. From a business POV it makes no sense to be ignored a ready made clinic where participants are lined up, days are filled and you just need to rock up and teach (& are in the area anyway).
So there are people out there plugging away trying to bring good trainers to the UK / Scotland but it is a hard slog. There was a spectator recently who decided she didn't like what she was seeing so left and sent an emailing wanting the £10 spectating fee back. You literally can't win with some people.
*SHORT ANSWER*
Yes, Joe is excellent and yes there are others like him but you probably have to put a bit of work in to find them.
You'll all be relieved to know that the postman has literally just dropped the Buck Brannaman "Groundwork" book through my door so I'll be busy with that for a while instead of taking threads wildly off topic and blethering a load of nonsense.
Caol Ila
Well-Known Member
I’m on my phone right now, so not gonna say a lot at this second.
There is definitely kind of a culture here of not seeing “horsemanship” as anything they care about. When Joe came to the yard, I tried to recruit other people for lessons to make his side trip more worthwhile. Mostly, I heard crickets. But one fellow livery messaged me, saying, “Looks interesting but don’t see what he can do for me. He mostly works with young horses and problem horses but my horse isn’t young and doesn’t have any problems.” The horse in question actually has terrible ground manners and the staff hate handling it. I’ve had to deal with it on occasion and being squashed by it isn’t my favourite thing, either. But whatever. Owner thinks it walks on water. Of course, I didn’t say that. I said that Joe will help you with your timing and feel, and the people I know (AE and Red-1) who use him for regular lessons are accomplished horsewoman, but he’s making them into even better ones.
Still, got no one.
If he’d been called Ros Canter, people would have been lining up at the door.
There was a good amount of attendance at the Mark Rashid clinic I went to. But not a lot of generally competent dressage or eventing people. There were lots of people with pretty serious handling/riding problems. And me. Chrissi helped with my shoulder-in and half-pass, and Mark helped with my canter transitions. AE was auditing.
I can never go back to a clinic at that yard for reasons. But if I ever get transport, I can go to one in Edinburgh.
There is definitely kind of a culture here of not seeing “horsemanship” as anything they care about. When Joe came to the yard, I tried to recruit other people for lessons to make his side trip more worthwhile. Mostly, I heard crickets. But one fellow livery messaged me, saying, “Looks interesting but don’t see what he can do for me. He mostly works with young horses and problem horses but my horse isn’t young and doesn’t have any problems.” The horse in question actually has terrible ground manners and the staff hate handling it. I’ve had to deal with it on occasion and being squashed by it isn’t my favourite thing, either. But whatever. Owner thinks it walks on water. Of course, I didn’t say that. I said that Joe will help you with your timing and feel, and the people I know (AE and Red-1) who use him for regular lessons are accomplished horsewoman, but he’s making them into even better ones.
Still, got no one.
If he’d been called Ros Canter, people would have been lining up at the door.
There was a good amount of attendance at the Mark Rashid clinic I went to. But not a lot of generally competent dressage or eventing people. There were lots of people with pretty serious handling/riding problems. And me. Chrissi helped with my shoulder-in and half-pass, and Mark helped with my canter transitions. AE was auditing.
I can never go back to a clinic at that yard for reasons. But if I ever get transport, I can go to one in Edinburgh.
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palo1
Well-Known Member
But of course...I think sadly a lot of UK equestrian culture and cliques are VERY traditional and performance/competing centric. Not to mention very unlikely to look to other horse cultures for training. Horsesmanship stuff is often viewed quite cynically I find; it's 'different' and isnt directly related to the key disciplines. But, yes, very disappointing
Caol Ila
Well-Known Member
But of course...I think sadly a lot of UK equestrian culture and cliques are VERY traditional and performance/competing centric. Not to mention very unlikely to look to other horse cultures for training. Horsesmanship stuff is often viewed quite cynically I find; it's 'different' and isnt directly related to the key disciplines. But, yes, very disappointing
Yes. I also think people are extremely conditioned to the idea that ‘he’s just like that’ and the idea that he can be different through training is totally foreign. Had a whole surreal conversation with someone (a different livery… this was in person chat whilst filling water buckets) who was like, “he likes to rear when you’re leading him” but horsemanship training geared towards so-called ‘problem horses’ wasn’t for her. What???
Caol Ila
Well-Known Member
Should add that the East Coast of the US was very similar to here, or was circa 2001. I had this horrible culture shock when I moved there from a barn in CO where people like Buck and Mark were a big deal. I remember feeling totally despairing and incredibly lonely.
I don’t think anything has changed in 23 years. Other than countries, but this is like MA. That despair and loneliness and chronic culture shock just lives alongside wearied resignation.
I don’t think anything has changed in 23 years. Other than countries, but this is like MA. That despair and loneliness and chronic culture shock just lives alongside wearied resignation.
j1ffy
Well-Known Member
I think there's a very entrenched tradition based on hunting / racing / the old 'Pony Club / BHS way', and those that have grown-up in that world view 'natural horsemanship' as something that only novice-y people do whereas 'real old-school horse/nagsmen' don't need to.
My yard is classic hunting / racing background and anyone charging more than about £40 per hour for lessons struggles to get anyone to sign up (even Jonty Evans had few takers) as it's mostly people who grew up in Pony Club and don't think they need to learn much more. A lovely lady organises various clinics in liberty / ground work / working equitation and there are usually more people attending from outside than on the yard itself.
It's a huge missed opportunity for many, particularly as you now see more highly experienced riders (at least, the ones who keep coming back with more top horses that they have trained themselves) opening up to different approaches. Tristan Tucker seems to have succeeded in changing some perceptions, probably because he focuses on highly-bred warmbloods so competitors can more easily see the relevance. Even so most people politely ignore me when I do ground-work with mine! At least it's a very 'live and let live' environment with a lovely YO and liveries.
My yard is classic hunting / racing background and anyone charging more than about £40 per hour for lessons struggles to get anyone to sign up (even Jonty Evans had few takers) as it's mostly people who grew up in Pony Club and don't think they need to learn much more. A lovely lady organises various clinics in liberty / ground work / working equitation and there are usually more people attending from outside than on the yard itself.
It's a huge missed opportunity for many, particularly as you now see more highly experienced riders (at least, the ones who keep coming back with more top horses that they have trained themselves) opening up to different approaches. Tristan Tucker seems to have succeeded in changing some perceptions, probably because he focuses on highly-bred warmbloods so competitors can more easily see the relevance. Even so most people politely ignore me when I do ground-work with mine! At least it's a very 'live and let live' environment with a lovely YO and liveries.
palo1
Well-Known Member
Yes, that is interesting and I fear true in some ways. I have known many folk that totally anthropomorphise their horse's issues or simply can't be bothered to deal with them as they find ropy get-arounds. The amount of times I have heard 'Oh, he's just a character (rearing/barging) or 'He was treated badly' (usually, apocryphally, by a man somewhere...) and that excuses a whole life's worth of problems, poor communication, total lack of arsedness to do anything better. I feel lucky that it isn't really like that where I am; maybe because horses have always had a working/shepherding role and thus, potentially, the local culture was far less impacted by the 'improvements' and war necessary culture of producing horses that was so significant in the early 20th century - I know it's nearly 100 years on but truly these things have a long reach...There was such status involved in the military method and so, so many people engaged with that, that what had been before (agricultural and other stuff) was largely lost. Racing has always been it's own world too I think though I do know that many more racing trainers (small time ones) are prepared to try new things. A friend of mine who produces young horses and rehabs quite valuable racehorses is absolutely up for 'other' stuff and a friend with a 4* eventer is definitely interested in different training and management methods but those are only 2 people of course. I have heard some pretty dire things about Riding Club culture but am not involved in that so have no experience of how things are there. Those folk involved in hunting (legal trail, drag and clean boot) seem to have a combination of traditional and quite alternative views in my experience; probably in part because hunting itself is marginalised to a degree. I don't feel quite so desperate as you do @Caol Ila but I hear you!!
There is clearly an appetite for 'different' and you would have hoped the internet would have made forming communities easier but somehow it hasn't and the distances etc are not helpful for group clinics. People really want to feel part of something too so if all their friends are doing something a certain way, with certain trainers, in certain venues then that tends to dominate the local scene. In my situation it is partly financial and partly time that 'prevents' me from taking stuff on; I tried to go for a lesson a few weeks ago; even before things went wrong, just getting there was a mission (several hours driving) and the cost, which I do not resent for real expertise, is simply prohibitive for anything other than quite occasional stuff. So back on my own lol. I do get great enjoyment and richness from investigating stuff more deeply in other ways though and that can be very rewarding and useful. But it would be nice, occasionally to have someone to talk to, compare notes with etc!!
Ample Prosecco
Still wittering on
Thanks so much for War N Peace @TPO
I’ll respond properly on Sunday - I’m away with limited signal! But very thought provoking.
I agree I’ve been open to ‘new’ ideas which at times have taken me down rabbit holes and into dead ends. I think I’ve always tried to view new info critically- not always successfully perhaps. I’ve deffo never been a slavish devotee of a prescriptive ‘method’ though. I love ‘cafeteria horsemanship’!
Anyway more later…
I’ll respond properly on Sunday - I’m away with limited signal! But very thought provoking.
I agree I’ve been open to ‘new’ ideas which at times have taken me down rabbit holes and into dead ends. I think I’ve always tried to view new info critically- not always successfully perhaps. I’ve deffo never been a slavish devotee of a prescriptive ‘method’ though. I love ‘cafeteria horsemanship’!
Anyway more later…
Ample Prosecco
Still wittering on
@TPO said “The upside of this "cafeteria horsemanship" is that you are expanding your toolbox and can have a variety of ways to pick from depending on what you need in any given situation. Ideally this would be what everyone would do along with cross training. The downside is that how can you pick the good if you don't have that knowledge in the first place, and most importantly, how do you know when to use X instead of Y.
I think the bottom line is that it isn't straightforward and can be difficult and frustrating at times…..
There are people who have a thirst for knowledge and/or improvement, there are people who have a problem for every solution and there are those who "know enough" and have closed to the door on ever needing more. I keep trying to find more of the first type to try and build a tribe, even if it's mainly online, although I've found a few RL people too! ha ha I found the third type to be the most common on yards”
@j1ffy wrote
“I think there's a very entrenched tradition based on hunting / racing / the old 'Pony Club / BHS way', and those that have grown-up in that world view 'natural horsemanship' as something that only novice-y people do whereas 'real old-school horse/nagsmen' don't need to.”
I agree with all that.
Trad/BHS riders evaluating unfamiliar approaches seem to often struggle to see value and/or problems with those approaches. This leads to 2 contradictory problems: 1) dismissing the approaches and 2) being slavishly devoted to them. Especially if the person in question is not that experienced in just general horsemanship.
Some trainers use that mindset to their advantage and feed into slavish devotion. Chiefly Parelli. But Monty Roberts too. They both trumpet a ‘method’ instead of thoughtful application of a set of skills in context. Which is 100 X harder, takes much longer and can only be achieved with experience. (As an aside anyone who trademarks anything to do with horses is suspect!)
This then becomes a vicious cycle because a lot of people who don’t know much, promote the ‘method’, which feeds into the narrative that nh is for clueless gullible numpties that experienced horse folk can ignore.
It’s a real shame that the loudest voices in this area are - I believe - the least helpful proponents of it. (See also Celeste in the biomechanics world)
Mark Rashid was the first of the thoughtful horse trainers I had come across and also the first who accepted he knew what he knew because he learned it from someone else. Though I find it odd he has never really explained the lineage: who taught The Old Man etc.
Tik is another thoughtful trainer using ‘cafeteria horsemanship’ as opposed to following 1 tradition.
Then there’s the Dorrance-Hunt-Brannaman lineage. And various Buck-students like Guy Robertson and Kathleen Lindley Beckham - who started out as Rashid’s working pupil, but switched to Buck some years ago regarding him as simply a better horseman. (Which I agree he probably is, though Rashid is a better teacher! IMHO)
And then there’s Joe. Like Tik, he is very thoughtful and has learned from a lot of different people, and has adapted approaches rather than following a particular school. Like Rashid, he is a great communicator. And like Buck, he is just a better horseman than most trainers out there. So he combines it all, I think.
However I have given up suggesting various liveries use him. I’ve been bitten twice now where he’s tried to help and a totally inaccurate narrative of what happened has been shared, relating to both the above problems.
1) A slavish devotee of clicker could no longer lead her horse in as horse kicked her, ran over her, head butted her etc. So Joe did a bit of groundwork in field till horse understood following a feel then led horse in. Horse struck out with foreleg, Joe directed a twirling rope at offending leg so horse kicked into it. Perfect timing. Horse snorted then walked in nicely. Never threatened to kick again. Story became ‘Joe hits horses’. When I enquired what owner thinks Joe should have done with a horse who is striking out she said ‘wait for horse to stop kicking then click and treat!’ Nothing wrong with clicker, but that woman had zero understanding of the reinforcement contingencies in play in that scenario, and still presumed to tell a person like Joe that they were doing it ‘wrong’ because it was not aligned with their ‘method’. Which they could not use themselves because they were too scared of their own horse and had zero control over it. No wonder experienced horse people get exasperated with these people!
2) horse would not load despite lunge whips etc. Joe didn’t load it in first session. Said horse was terrified and loading had to be a process horse learned overtime. He wasn’t satisfied with horse just getting into box - he wanted to teach it to load happily and willingly. Owner unhappy and got local old school YO out. They used blue piping, parked lorry in a corner, blocked exits and horse loaded. Story became Joe is a clueless idiot who couldn’t load the horse when it wasn’t even that hard. They failed to see the value in TEACHING a horse to load as opposed to loading a horse. I doubt that horse will travel well for long. I think he will find new ways to evade over time or they will need to load without being able to find a corner and won’t be able to.
So yeh I now let people curious about this path find it for themselves. I will no longer suggest him.
I think the bottom line is that it isn't straightforward and can be difficult and frustrating at times…..
There are people who have a thirst for knowledge and/or improvement, there are people who have a problem for every solution and there are those who "know enough" and have closed to the door on ever needing more. I keep trying to find more of the first type to try and build a tribe, even if it's mainly online, although I've found a few RL people too! ha ha I found the third type to be the most common on yards”
@j1ffy wrote
“I think there's a very entrenched tradition based on hunting / racing / the old 'Pony Club / BHS way', and those that have grown-up in that world view 'natural horsemanship' as something that only novice-y people do whereas 'real old-school horse/nagsmen' don't need to.”
I agree with all that.
Trad/BHS riders evaluating unfamiliar approaches seem to often struggle to see value and/or problems with those approaches. This leads to 2 contradictory problems: 1) dismissing the approaches and 2) being slavishly devoted to them. Especially if the person in question is not that experienced in just general horsemanship.
Some trainers use that mindset to their advantage and feed into slavish devotion. Chiefly Parelli. But Monty Roberts too. They both trumpet a ‘method’ instead of thoughtful application of a set of skills in context. Which is 100 X harder, takes much longer and can only be achieved with experience. (As an aside anyone who trademarks anything to do with horses is suspect!)
This then becomes a vicious cycle because a lot of people who don’t know much, promote the ‘method’, which feeds into the narrative that nh is for clueless gullible numpties that experienced horse folk can ignore.
It’s a real shame that the loudest voices in this area are - I believe - the least helpful proponents of it. (See also Celeste in the biomechanics world)
Mark Rashid was the first of the thoughtful horse trainers I had come across and also the first who accepted he knew what he knew because he learned it from someone else. Though I find it odd he has never really explained the lineage: who taught The Old Man etc.
Tik is another thoughtful trainer using ‘cafeteria horsemanship’ as opposed to following 1 tradition.
Then there’s the Dorrance-Hunt-Brannaman lineage. And various Buck-students like Guy Robertson and Kathleen Lindley Beckham - who started out as Rashid’s working pupil, but switched to Buck some years ago regarding him as simply a better horseman. (Which I agree he probably is, though Rashid is a better teacher! IMHO)
And then there’s Joe. Like Tik, he is very thoughtful and has learned from a lot of different people, and has adapted approaches rather than following a particular school. Like Rashid, he is a great communicator. And like Buck, he is just a better horseman than most trainers out there. So he combines it all, I think.
However I have given up suggesting various liveries use him. I’ve been bitten twice now where he’s tried to help and a totally inaccurate narrative of what happened has been shared, relating to both the above problems.
1) A slavish devotee of clicker could no longer lead her horse in as horse kicked her, ran over her, head butted her etc. So Joe did a bit of groundwork in field till horse understood following a feel then led horse in. Horse struck out with foreleg, Joe directed a twirling rope at offending leg so horse kicked into it. Perfect timing. Horse snorted then walked in nicely. Never threatened to kick again. Story became ‘Joe hits horses’. When I enquired what owner thinks Joe should have done with a horse who is striking out she said ‘wait for horse to stop kicking then click and treat!’ Nothing wrong with clicker, but that woman had zero understanding of the reinforcement contingencies in play in that scenario, and still presumed to tell a person like Joe that they were doing it ‘wrong’ because it was not aligned with their ‘method’. Which they could not use themselves because they were too scared of their own horse and had zero control over it. No wonder experienced horse people get exasperated with these people!
2) horse would not load despite lunge whips etc. Joe didn’t load it in first session. Said horse was terrified and loading had to be a process horse learned overtime. He wasn’t satisfied with horse just getting into box - he wanted to teach it to load happily and willingly. Owner unhappy and got local old school YO out. They used blue piping, parked lorry in a corner, blocked exits and horse loaded. Story became Joe is a clueless idiot who couldn’t load the horse when it wasn’t even that hard. They failed to see the value in TEACHING a horse to load as opposed to loading a horse. I doubt that horse will travel well for long. I think he will find new ways to evade over time or they will need to load without being able to find a corner and won’t be able to.
So yeh I now let people curious about this path find it for themselves. I will no longer suggest him.
Ample Prosecco
Still wittering on
ETA the same 2 issues are seen online too:
Person posts query about horse and ‘devotee’ says try clicker, use join-up, etc. Ie adopt this METHOD - as opposed to showing any understanding of the question being asked.
Or person talks about a something within an nh lens and the replies denounce Parelli!
Which is why I stopped really discussing it though I’m glad this thread has stayed interesting and thoughtful, I think.
Person posts query about horse and ‘devotee’ says try clicker, use join-up, etc. Ie adopt this METHOD - as opposed to showing any understanding of the question being asked.
Or person talks about a something within an nh lens and the replies denounce Parelli!
Which is why I stopped really discussing it though I’m glad this thread has stayed interesting and thoughtful, I think.
palo1
Well-Known Member
Oh dear
25 years ago I called out a local nh (Monty Roberts trained) person to help me with a horse. The horse had no problems under saddle, ostensibly and in fact we were competing with a low level of success. He had other issues to do with handling etc and as a cheap horse bought from Ireland, whilst not totally surprising that he was not confident with some skills, he had some quite extreme reactions. NH clinician came, spent a few hours and charged appropriately. There were spectators (not invited lol) and I was firmly told that the horse looked 'very bored', that the bloke did nothing but 'twirl ropes at the horse'. No-one saw the beneift of this. That horse stopped cribbing and I could lead him anywhere and generally load him anywhere at any time even though he continued to find that worrying to a degree, after this session, where I was given some tools and skills to help the horse. NO ONE saw this and thought it was 'relevant' or 'worth paying for'. Since that point in time I haven't really invited anyone to spectate on any kind of groundwork...
The Xmas Furry
🦄 🦄
This is why I ceased doing any work with others, stopped completely 5 yrs ago.
Far too many want to cut corners, claiming they need results 'now'. There are few who want to put the work or time in to re-educate themselves, 1 or 2 sessions and they either turned into an expert themselves or more usually couldnt achieve on their own (as didnt want to spend time nor money further) and ended up back stabbing the original methods.
Tho it hurts me to say it, I actively walk away in the other direction if am out and about.
The only help I've done since is for good friends when they've got new horses and need an escort or assistance with installing tools for hacking.
twiggy2
Well-Known Member
This, I am currently horseless, have never been the most accomplished rider, have loved backing my own and others, its communication I want, I want the horse to understand what we are doing, I am not so worried about sitting pretty, my last instructor works on the levels of training he is as far from alternative and western in his delivery though and his following has grown so much.
Yep, been there, the biggest one was people not understanding why I did so much in the ground with my youngster, hmm cos I don't want it all to go wrong when I am in the saddle...if I can avoid it...
j1ffy
Well-Known Member
A lot of people find comfort in a process. In my working world, I often notice that process starts where capability ends - i.e. if you are bringing in people who don't fully understand how to do a complex task (and why) then a company needs to put a process in place with clear SOPs, escalation routes etc. Many people prefer to work in this way as it means they go into work, do a familiar job, have clear objectives for the day, etc. Nothing wrong with that. But there is also a need for people to engage their brains to develop new ways of doing things, make improvements, handle change, take risky decisions, etc.
I am getting to a point here. Where process rules in many workplaces, and also in our lives as a 'customer', people are used to it and like the simplicity of it. There's less need to use up brain energy in working out a problem as you 'know' that A followed by B will result in C.
However when you're working with sentient beings - human, equine, canine - that doesn't work as the brain doesn't work in a linear way and emotions come into play. Training a horse is a mental workout as much as a physical one hence the 'cafeteria horsemanship' approach being so suitable. Build up a large toolkit, develop your 'feel' and timing, and consider which technique to apply when. The most talented horse trainers can select the right tool within in split second, whereas the rest of us are likely to encounter a problem, have a frustrating training session as we can't problem solve in-the-moment while staying safe / dealing with an issue (well, I know I struggle to so hopefully I'm not a lone voice here!) but then reflect and take a different approach the next time.
I feel this thread is heading into the same territory as the 'safe place to make mistakes' thread but the two are so interlinked. Thank you AE for such thought-provoking topics!
To bring this even closer to the 'mistakes' thread, the themes here remind me of another Matthew Syed book - Rebel Ideas - which is all about the importance of bringing in different thinking and approaches so pretty much exactly what we're talking about here.
I am getting to a point here
. Where process rules in many workplaces, and also in our lives as a 'customer', people are used to it and like the simplicity of it. There's less need to use up brain energy in working out a problem as you 'know' that A followed by B will result in C. However when you're working with sentient beings - human, equine, canine - that doesn't work as the brain doesn't work in a linear way and emotions come into play. Training a horse is a mental workout as much as a physical one hence the 'cafeteria horsemanship' approach being so suitable. Build up a large toolkit, develop your 'feel' and timing, and consider which technique to apply when. The most talented horse trainers can select the right tool within in split second, whereas the rest of us are likely to encounter a problem, have a frustrating training session as we can't problem solve in-the-moment while staying safe / dealing with an issue (well, I know I struggle to so hopefully I'm not a lone voice here!) but then reflect and take a different approach the next time.
I feel this thread is heading into the same territory as the 'safe place to make mistakes' thread but the two are so interlinked. Thank you AE for such thought-provoking topics!
To bring this even closer to the 'mistakes' thread, the themes here remind me of another Matthew Syed book - Rebel Ideas - which is all about the importance of bringing in different thinking and approaches so pretty much exactly what we're talking about here.
Ample Prosecco
Still wittering on
Yes I agree that’s why ‘methods’ are popular. And have value as a starting point. But are also limited. I write risk management plans for care home staff to use with high risk adolescents. Very prescriptive, very clear, and absolutely no substitute for clinical experience. They look similar to each other, as they follow a general philosophy, but the tweaks for each individual child make a big difference (which is why there isn’t just an off-the-peg plan for staff to use with all kids). And for some kids we rip up the templates completely and do something very different.
Don’t know that Matthew Syed book. Off for a Google!
Don’t know that Matthew Syed book. Off for a Google!
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
This is such a fantastic discussion! I'm enjoying reading it even if I don't have anything to add. Thanks everyone.
palo1
Well-Known Member
It is interesting. When I first met my OH, over 20 years ago, I was at times appalled by some of the horsemanship that he described as 'normal'. That horsemanship was stuff handed down over several generations (and OH's mum was a very well known pony racer whilst dad worked horses on the farm, 1 uncle worked, bred and drove horses regularly, another was a locally celebrated PTP breeder and small time (family jockey lol) trainer. There was a family culture and experience of horses in the everyday in place. Added to that was a wider local and family culture of breeding hill ponies, gathering the Welsh hills on horseback and using horses in harness for a variety of occasional tasks. That was both 'work' and for fun and not at all surprising. Even neighbours who are not interested in horses still have a degree of knowledge and skill. I would absolutely trust our tractor engineer to start or ride a horse sympathetically even though he is not particularly interested in them. It was all quite 'work'-ish' (including the PTP activities where there was always an intention to make money from breeding) , no aspiration toward dressage, eventing or show jumping. Hunting was something that was considered a luxury day out but horses did often go for a day either for 'a blast' or as part of a vague educational plan. I don't think a 'hunter' was ever produced here but local farmers would generally grab a pony from the hill (that had experience of being ridden, usually!) if they wanted to have a day's hunting. None of those folk either had experience or family history of military service (due to the protected occupation status of farming in both WWs). So they had 'missed', culturally the shift from agricultural and 'sporting' work to military style/BHS horsemanship, riding, training. That may or may not be significant tbh but I find it interesting in the mix!
When I met OH, much of the tack was old, like REALLY old. Sort of horrifyingly so...Horses were trained to tie (properly trained - no one here had money for broken necks or horses that couldn't be sold safely to neighbours/locals). So no equi-pings etc. Horses did LOADS of ground work, were ponied everywhere at quite an early point in the training and ridden in the open, on the hill very early on. Absolutely no chance of school work. But lots of double line lunge work/long lining, all of them would have pulled a tyre around, only snaffle bits or headcollar riding and once backed, horses were expected to go anywhere, albeit slowly for some time. Turned away in the first year - possibly back on to the hill. It was basic but the horses were generally pretty bombproof, willing and had nice manners. Some of them were...interesting, to ride. No one seemed to mind a lack of refinement in the 'dressage' sense but all the horses I rode at that time here were 'safe', definitely forward, sensible in company and in the open in a way that many other horses I rode at that time elsewhere were not. It was simllar but definitely different. Horses that didn't cope with training were sold for meat. That was a better 'loss' than continuing to work on them, do expensive veterinary explorations or sell a 'dud' locally. No one had the time or inclination to sell out of area either where a dud could have been passed on. I know that all sounds quite basic and brutal; it was.
What I have taken from that, having come from a very different place (old school BHS, v traditional 'classical' in a limited way and eventing sort of aspirant) has been the very considerable ground work, prep and 'ambition' for horses to be essentially confident, forward, safe and responsive. Even though there has been much to question, that ambition and understanding has been really valuable. I also respect the way in which horses that broke down mentally or physically were not continued to be 'produced' or bred from. That is something I question in our increasingly fragile horses. The other thing which I think is interesting and which really does resonate with more contemporary ways of doing things is the time given to developing a partnership with horses. It was absolutely common practice for those working with horses in the way above to spend hours and hours with them; just hanging out, stroking them, handling them quietly; often with another, older and already established horse with them. I really liked that and was quite surprised by it in view of some of the much more 'basic' other methods and ideas.
There is quite a lot I have to say and think about all this but want to avoid an essay. It's just my experience of 'seeing' a different way of doing things that probably isn't that common any more.
When I met OH, much of the tack was old, like REALLY old. Sort of horrifyingly so...Horses were trained to tie (properly trained - no one here had money for broken necks or horses that couldn't be sold safely to neighbours/locals). So no equi-pings etc. Horses did LOADS of ground work, were ponied everywhere at quite an early point in the training and ridden in the open, on the hill very early on. Absolutely no chance of school work. But lots of double line lunge work/long lining, all of them would have pulled a tyre around, only snaffle bits or headcollar riding and once backed, horses were expected to go anywhere, albeit slowly for some time. Turned away in the first year - possibly back on to the hill. It was basic but the horses were generally pretty bombproof, willing and had nice manners. Some of them were...interesting, to ride. No one seemed to mind a lack of refinement in the 'dressage' sense but all the horses I rode at that time here were 'safe', definitely forward, sensible in company and in the open in a way that many other horses I rode at that time elsewhere were not. It was simllar but definitely different. Horses that didn't cope with training were sold for meat. That was a better 'loss' than continuing to work on them, do expensive veterinary explorations or sell a 'dud' locally. No one had the time or inclination to sell out of area either where a dud could have been passed on. I know that all sounds quite basic and brutal; it was.
What I have taken from that, having come from a very different place (old school BHS, v traditional 'classical' in a limited way and eventing sort of aspirant) has been the very considerable ground work, prep and 'ambition' for horses to be essentially confident, forward, safe and responsive. Even though there has been much to question, that ambition and understanding has been really valuable. I also respect the way in which horses that broke down mentally or physically were not continued to be 'produced' or bred from. That is something I question in our increasingly fragile horses. The other thing which I think is interesting and which really does resonate with more contemporary ways of doing things is the time given to developing a partnership with horses. It was absolutely common practice for those working with horses in the way above to spend hours and hours with them; just hanging out, stroking them, handling them quietly; often with another, older and already established horse with them. I really liked that and was quite surprised by it in view of some of the much more 'basic' other methods and ideas.
There is quite a lot I have to say and think about all this but want to avoid an essay. It's just my experience of 'seeing' a different way of doing things that probably isn't that common any more.
palo1
Well-Known Member
A lot of people find comfort in a process. In my working world, I often notice that process starts where capability ends - i.e. if you are bringing in people who don't fully understand how to do a complex task (and why) then a company needs to put a process in place with clear SOPs, escalation routes etc. Many people prefer to work in this way as it means they go into work, do a familiar job, have clear objectives for the day, etc. Nothing wrong with that. But there is also a need for people to engage their brains to develop new ways of doing things, make improvements, handle change, take risky decisions, etc.
I am getting to a point here
However when you're working with sentient beings - human, equine, canine - that doesn't work as the brain doesn't work in a linear way and emotions come into play. Training a horse is a mental workout as much as a physical one hence the 'cafeteria horsemanship' approach being so suitable. Build up a large toolkit, develop your 'feel' and timing, and consider which technique to apply when. The most talented horse trainers can select the right tool within in split second, whereas the rest of us are likely to encounter a problem, have a frustrating training session as we can't problem solve in-the-moment while staying safe / dealing with an issue (well, I know I struggle to so hopefully I'm not a lone voice here!) but then reflect and take a different approach the next time.
I feel this thread is heading into the same territory as the 'safe place to make mistakes' thread but the two are so interlinked. Thank you AE for such thought-provoking topics!
To bring this even closer to the 'mistakes' thread, the themes here remind me of another Matthew Syed book - Rebel Ideas - which is all about the importance of bringing in different thinking and approaches so pretty much exactly what we're talking about here.
That is so well expressed! Thank you.
Hackback
Well-Known Member
Having had this conversation with a very experienced horse person who has had horses for more than half a century, my personal theory is that learning horsemanship is like learning a foreign language. People who have been around horses for years learn horse language presumably from teachers at some point, but mainly by living in the foreign country that is the horse world and absorbing the language, learning the different dialects etc. Newbies to the game often turn to the SOP or the manual, needing a crash course in learning the language. The NH manuals are the most appealing because you feel like you are really learning about how your horse thinks. It's a bit of a shame when you find out that your horse hasn't read the book, but hey ho.
So I can see why some old hands look down on NH.
On the other hand people who find it easy to handle horses sometimes don't ever actually teach their horses to lead nicely or stand at the mounting block etc because for them the horse just does it, either nicely or with the leadrope round it's nose, mounting block pushed in the corner etc (which does make it galling when you have actually taught your horse these things and people just say, oh aren't you lucky, your horse is so good!)
So I can see why some old hands look down on NH.
On the other hand people who find it easy to handle horses sometimes don't ever actually teach their horses to lead nicely or stand at the mounting block etc because for them the horse just does it, either nicely or with the leadrope round it's nose, mounting block pushed in the corner etc (which does make it galling when you have actually taught your horse these things and people just say, oh aren't you lucky, your horse is so good!)
palo1
Well-Known Member
The 'You are so lucky...' conversations are frankly enraging lol. There are so many variations of that, that utterly fail to recognise any form of 'training', skill or knowledge that honestly it's enough to make you spit.