Judges Riding Horses

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FMM

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Do you remember a week or so ago, someone on here complained that their horse had misbehaved on the go round during a showing class, and the judge declined to ride their horse in the class. They basically accused the judge of not being very brave as they "knew" their horse would have been OK with the judge on board.

Well - yesterday at the Royal one of the judges had a very bad fall from a horse which bucked and misbehaved really badly, which has resulted in them breaking a bone in their back.

The Royal is a show where you cannot prepare your horse for eveyrthing it will see - carriages, heavy horses, hackneys etc - so it is entirely possible that the horse in question acted entirely out of character.

My point is more that the person who posted originally ought to be more aware of the accidents that can happen, and to consider the fact that a judge does NOT want to be put in a position of danger by riding a horse that is not capable of behaving correctly with its own rider.

My best wishes for a speedy recovery go to the judge involved.
 
I remember the post FMM and I entirely agree with you.

Such a shame the judge was injured
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Hope they get better very soon.

As well as we know our horses, we can't expect a stranger to know them, nor take our word for it when it is in a strange environment.

Yes, riding is a risk anyway, but riding an unknown horse in what can be a 'scary' environment, puts even more risk out there. I think judges are well within their rights to decline riding something if they have any doubt.
 
i agree. i took a horse to windsor once that had been basically re-brken it was in such a state when we got it but it had been to several local shows and behaved perfectly and clients had ridden him in the school so i had no worries when the late vin toulson got on him.....until he took off at a dead run and completed two laps before Vin could pull him up. lucky the ground was good and the horse apppropiately studded or there would have been an accident the speed they went round the corners.
most judges will get on most horses but sometimes they hae to decide if its worth the risk.chances are if the horse is misbehaving enough to make them dubious it isnt going to be placed anyway so why risk it?
 
exactly!!

im going on teh BSHA ride panel next year and if anything dosnt look good to go,,...... im not going on it.

sometimes u see completey nuts horses that will be a real dangeresp to a rider that dosnt know it.

saftey first esp in this world! has anyone ever known of a judge sueing?
bet it wont be long now!
 
I didn't see that post but in the RoR class at Cheshire one horse was being a sh!t in the go round and the judge said she wouldn't ride it and the girl left the ring. This horse was spinning broncing and generally being a right pig. My horse is quite sharp and sensetive but he was well mannered enough to not let his tension make him misbehave, the judge rode him really well and I couldn't of been happier, but had he misbehaved I wouldn't of expected her to ride him.
I think it is rude of people to think the judge ought to ride their horse, if its that badly behaved with a familiar jockey then its not the judges job to sort it out. THEY ARE JUDGES.
 
If they horse has misbehaved, what is the point of the judge getting on it? It is never going to get placed.
 
It was me that made the original post, I wasnt trying to be rude or teasy that the judge didnt ride my horse I was just asking a question as I have never done showing classes before. I do agree that it would be dangerous for a judge to get on a horse if it is misbehaving that badly, I wouldnt get on a horse I didnt no if it was going mad, but abbey was just jogging and was a bit fresh thats all.

This past weekend she was a little star and the judge said she gave her a very nice balanced ride, and we got pulled in 4th out or a field of around 10, so I think she was just a little excited last week.

I hope the judge recovers quickly.
 
As the UK is getting more and more like the US in the lawsuit culture it probably will not be too far in the future when ride judging is no longer part of the classes.

We have not had anything we wanted to show in the UK for several yrs until now having bought a stunning 5yr old mare who has already been a prolific inhand hunter winner. We really considered doing a yr or 2 here with her then shipping her out to the US for the hunter jumper circuit but looking at the ride judging in hunters some of the more youthfull judges I personally would not want them on anything of mine. So she will not be shown here under saddle.

Vin Toulson and the like would get on anything and generally the horse would go better than for the exhibitor, Hopper Cavendish, Donald Owen, Janet Cope, etc the same. But now I see some get on grab, drag, tense, nervous judges who do not ride the horse forwards --- the more youthfull ones particularly trying to force the horse into their outline and almost try to "school" it. But in recent times the amount of accidents per percentage of exhibits really has grown.

Like Lucretia said there have always been iffy rides, there was a large hack the pegged it at the Great Yorkshire and did several laps of the ring (6 months out of racing) but the judge was experienced and a beautiful rider and did not panic. We had a lightweight that could be lively but safe, even on one of his more electric performances Peter Brookshaw just made the comment "bit fresh today" and left him at the top.
 
ANother 100% agreement here.

I've given up ride judging because of the amount of ill prepared horses that are brought in to the ring, & the 'Oh well if you're not brave enough' attitude from the competitors. I'm not there to prove anything to anybody, mny job in the ring is to select what is in my opinion the best horse in the class. If part of that assessment is to decline to ride something then just accept it, take the horse home, & do some more work on it.
Some ride judges aren't the best but the whole point is the horse should be well mannered enough to go for ANYBODY for the 3 -4 minutes that it's being ridden. It's a real bugbear of mine that quality horses who are obviously being sharp & aren't penalised for it at the upper levels. Judges shouldn't ignore bad behavior because their riding skills allow them to deal with it. All the rule books say that manners are of paramount importance & ride judges as well as competitors should remember that
 
A posting from the Royal on another thread said that the horse was spooked by carriages in the adjacent ring and alot of the horses in same class were upset. Maybe this time the horse / owners were not to blame for putting in a poorly prepared horse. Very unfortunate incident but when will show organisers wake up and do ring plans with some common sense, even the most seasoned show horse can get upset at carriages and drays. Like the time they put the Ladies Hunters in a small ring immediately next to the fairground at Newbury. The ride next to the ring was one of those towers that has seats on chains that the faster it goes the farther out the seats spin in the air - actually in the air space of one side of the ring!
 
The Royal Show is one that has 100s of carriages going up and down the walkways every day of the show. It is one of the biggest driving shows, and equine competitors are well aware of that, so any horse that is not keen on carriages should be kept away! Obviously, if you don't know your horse doesn't like them it is more of a problem.
 
FMM:-

If you are an experienced competitor at the Royal et al (as we are) you do KNOW there are carriages, drays, etc up and down the walk ways every day of the show. You expect that at ANY agricultural show or equestrian there will be all kinds of horrors in a horse's eyes. However to have them in a ring adjacent to ridden classes has ALWAYS been a known factor in "setting off" ridden classes. I don't think all the exhibitors of the unsettled horses in the class concerned at the Royal would have been so niaeve as to think it would have not had the usual circus of distractions around.

Prime example was at Surrey County in the early '70's who insisted on having a motorcycle stunt team next to the show classes. Chaos followed. Even the most seasoned show horses and ponies were very unsettled.

We had a top hack in the '70's that went on to HOYS successes, never batted an eyelid at anything around the showgrounds but did get upset ONCE a brewery dray class in the main ring at the same time as the hacks. Ditto with one of our top hunters around 10 yrs ago, bombproof but a particular vanner & coloured cob just hit the wrong note with him.

Please read posts throughly before replying with such patronising comments as though others on the thread are complete novice imbeciles. We may be "old hands" or "newbies" - either way it is nice to share experiences without being flamed.
 
cefyl, i'm have never been to the Royal (infact the biggest show ive been to has been the derbyshire festival or the anglesey county) but i know full well that if i ever had to go then getting my pony used to carriages and the like would be essential, infact i know of a small agricultural show where it is probably even worse. You only have to ask round and you find out what is likely to be going on at each show and with the internet it is so much easier to find out. ALso a quick look at the schedule should be all the warning you need, ring 2 is likely to be next to ring 1 and if your in ring one and the carriages are in ring 2 then you need to work with geting used to them
I've had all sorts going on with my pony when ive been in the ring, including funfairs, motorbikes, doves being let out of baskets, cows, pigs, tractors, ambulances you name it weve probably had it, he hasnt coped with all of them but i wouldnt let a judge on him if he wasnt coping well, i'd rather retire from the class then have that on my concience, luckily he is a pony so we dont have judge rides, but i've still pulled him out of some classes whe he has felt explosive.
 
"This past weekend she was a little star and the judge said she gave her a very nice balanced ride, and we got pulled in 4th out or a field of around 10, so I think she was just a little excited last week. "

Just like to say well done to Abbey. Nice one.
 
Whoa!! I didn't see anything 'patronising' in FMMs reply whatsoever - nor judging from the reponse did conniegirl!!

At the end of the day judges shouldn't be expected to make allowances & excuse bad behavior no matter what the cause. However many do (or seem to) & anyway it's all subjective & down to one persons opinion on the day.
 
Anyone remember the Ladies hunter that stood up with the judge a few years back?

We are going to a show where I KNOW we will face carraiges and driving ponies all day. If my ride is remotely hyped by it, I will NOT be putting the judge on him, despite the fact he has never bucked or reared in his life and is most likely to pin is chin on his chest if he is spooked.

Having stewarded for a few ride judges, and some who are very (stupidly) brave and had horses brought back to the line beacuse of misbehaviour I can say that there are some that although beautiful, very correct horses, they just are not suited to the ring, as their temprements just will not allow it.

On the other hand though, theres some fantastically well behaved creatures around.

The ones that really worry me are the childrens LR/FR/128/138 ponies that get worked for hours by adults to make them safe.
 
Totally agree with FMM, judges should not be expected to ride horses that are ill behaved. I went to a PUK show a year back and had a similar experience, a rider of the coloured horse class was complaining that the judge had said he was not there to 'school' a horse, it should have manners before it enters the ring. The horse in question was fly bucking with the owner, who thought that this was acceptable!!!

The judge in question with the fractured vertebra was lucky to not have done worse damage by injuring the spinal cord, lets hope they make a speedy recovery.

Maybe, these classes will go along the lines of MM classes where it is just the owner/rider who rides......Health and safety is becoming more apparent, this could be the way forward?
 
Judges don't have to ride anything they don't want to do they?
This sounds like one of those things that happens when you have live animals a sudden spook and big unexpected problem.
We can't get it right all the time with these animals.

It would be a shame to loose ride judges in these hunter and riding horse classes as it's they who can comment on how well schooled /well mannered/ repsonsive the horse is.

Without the ride judges the riders ability will come into it a whole lot more.
 
I hope the judge makes a full recovery.
Unfortunately sometimes it is impossible to predict/prepare forwhat will happen.
I remember being at Warrington Horse show in 1999 when the organisers in their infinate wisdom had clowns in the main ring complete with exploding car. I was competing in the Coloured class and it was chaotic, horses going in all directions in mine and the ajoining rings, which had lead rein ponies in. The only good thing was my recently broken 4 year old stood like a rock whilst everything took off around him. Friends said I was the only one who didnt look petrified.
 
It's unfortunately one of those things where at the end of your life you have the right number of prizes just not always for the right reasons!

I've had horses pin in classes where they were NOT the best horse but they were the best horse ON THE DAY because they coped best with the conditions.

This is true for ANY type of equestrian sport.

Even at the top levels there are horses the don't show indoors, or are limited to certain classes/venues/conditions or sometimes don't even go to Championships/Olympics because they can't cope with the atmosphere. (Remember Arun Tor? No one doubted his ability but clearly there were aspects of top competition he struggled with. It's not uncommon and I don't think it's "unfair".) Dressage horses and even jumpers from the UK and North America regularly struggle in Europe because their shows are so different but people either cope or make the decision not to take those horses to those venues. Sure, it's disappointing to have a top quality horse and have to make a decision like that but that's life - it's the whole package that's judged on the day.

It's been a very long time since ride judging was phased out in North America (even the idea it's still done here horrifies many judges
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) and I can see it following suit here eventually. I actually think it would be a real shame and a loss to the classes but I can see why shows and judges would increasingly not want to be bothered. I think part of retaining it though, might be really supporting judges in what they choose to ride and making it very clear they are there to test, not to train. They should feel free to not get on a horse or even, if they don't like it in the first few minutes, get straight off again and this should count against the HORSE not the judge, not just in the class but in public opinion. I'd be mortified if I produced a horse and someone didn't want to ride it! I also think judges (and competitors) should be reminded the judge is not there to school the horse or impress, even to the point a show should feel free to put a reminder of this fact in the prize list or similar saying riding will be at the judges discretion only. That way people whose horses don't get ridden will understand what's happening. Sure they'll bitch and whine but maybe they'll either improve the situation or choose more carefully next time.
 
I agree! I noticed at Cheshire this year that the ride judge, who was a good sympathetic rider did not gallop all the hunters. Can't say I blame her
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Well said FMM.
Its amazing the liberties some people take actually, i was ride judge a couple of years ago now in a land far away..... oops sorry got into god child bedtime reading mode!!
Seriously i got on this rather nice mare that had not been terribly well ridden it was a bit 'lumpy', finished my ride , thanked the rider who with great glee exclaimed oh you did so well she bucked the judge off at the Royal Dee side show last week!!
The penny then dropped , i knew this horse and it was a mare a client had bought that had been so bad i told her to sell it and that the recomendation should be it not be ridden [ it had had problems through an accident, she was a smashing mare with good bloodlines and a lovely temperament the rest of the time]
This person then recalled the story to me!!!!
So it seems that on occations its considered 'funny' to stick the judge on like a crash test dummy!!!
This is my livelyhood, like many judges and this kind of thoughtlessness could be career ending... think on... its got s*d all to do with being brave or not and that should not be the case or requirement of being a ride judge.
 
Here is an update on the judge that was injured.

He has broken a bone in his neck and a bone in his lower back - a full recovery is hoped for, but at the moment is is too unwell to be moved to a different hospital.


[ QUOTE ]
FMM:-

If you are an experienced competitor at the Royal et al (as we are) you do KNOW there are carriages, drays, etc up and down the walk ways every day of the show. You expect that at ANY agricultural show or equestrian there will be all kinds of horrors in a horse's eyes. However to have them in a ring adjacent to ridden classes has ALWAYS been a known factor in "setting off" ridden classes. I don't think all the exhibitors of the unsettled horses in the class concerned at the Royal would have been so niaeve as to think it would have not had the usual circus of distractions around.

Prime example was at Surrey County in the early '70's who insisted on having a motorcycle stunt team next to the show classes. Chaos followed. Even the most seasoned show horses and ponies were very unsettled.

We had a top hack in the '70's that went on to HOYS successes, never batted an eyelid at anything around the showgrounds but did get upset ONCE a brewery dray class in the main ring at the same time as the hacks. Ditto with one of our top hunters around 10 yrs ago, bombproof but a particular vanner & coloured cob just hit the wrong note with him.

Please read posts throughly before replying with such patronising comments as though others on the thread are complete novice imbeciles. We may be "old hands" or "newbies" - either way it is nice to share experiences without being flamed.

[/ QUOTE ]

What on earth are you talking about? I have read my post 100 times and STILL can't see how you could possibly have been offended by it. My deepest apologies that you considered I was flaming. I don't think that anyone on this site could say that I have EVER written anything that could be considered as such.
 
Best wishes to the judge, I hope they fully recover.
It isn't the judges job to ride naughty horses, and everyone should be aware of that and accept it.
Of course incidents happen, years ago when CCJ was showing ponies she was doing a First Ridden when the organisers at Devon County in their wisdom had a huge helicopter take off from the adjacent ring. All the ponies scattered to the winds, two riders falling off, others tanking off and only our pony stood like a rock, as on Dartmoor helicopters are a daily occurrance!
We assumed after that we would win the class standing third at that point, but no, despite a foot perfect show a prettier more correct pony won... A spectator actually wrote to H and H about it, and I replied, saying he wasn't a show pony but one who did everything from hunt regularly to dressage.
I think sometimes show organisers should be more aware of the problems they can cause. We tend to take our youngsters to our local village show. There in the next field is a massive revolving ride, the rest of a fairground and things like dog show and displays. the horses can see it all but are separated by a hedge, so it's a good way to get them used to things like npoise and explosions, and the driving section gives you room to meet carriages in a big field where they can watch from a distance first.
Our bucking bronco Jacques had dumped my daughter before her dressage at his first ODE last year, so she hacked him two miles to the above show the next day as she thought he needed to get out and see more of life. She entered the WH classes for something to do, there are normally only ten or so competitors in each, but local pot hunters often turn up as nice trophies.
He won the Novice WH, the the Open, then the Championship, and by the end of the day was oblivious to all the distractions, the experience has benefitted him hugely since too. She would however have not allowed a judge to ride him had there been a ridden one!
Shows like The Royal are best experienced as in hand youngsters, that way the horses get used to scary situations in hand and before they are big and bolshy.
I read the reply above about "Oh but my horse was only jogging and a bit fresh" with disbelief. If the horse looked sharp then the judge shouldn't be expected to get on; it's the exhibitor's responsibility to present the horse "un-sharp!"
you have to remember the judges have lives to live at home, and being injured can mean a loss of livelihood never mind money... If you are injured you can't work.. end of.
 
I've also read and re-read FMM's post and cannot see any reason for anyone to feel offended or patronised...

I dont think judges should be made to ride, I'm lucky as I do have a safe horse, which does annoy me slightly as with other people, quite often my horse is the best behaved in the class, yet a more striking but misbehaving horse will win, yet I've had times where I've been put up the line due to my horses good behaviour!!

I ride for a living, and I'm often expected to get on naughty horses, I don't mind most of the time, but it often annoys me that these people could easily get on the horse themselves, but would rather get someone else to act as a crash test dummy first!!!

Horses are unpredictable at the best of times, and I think that if a horse is acting fresh already, it would be like commiting suicide to get on the horse for the sake of judging a showing class.
 
I agree with you a judge shouldnt have to ride a horse if he doesnt think they are safe, and I now realised that I was being a bit sensitive with my original post, however you have to start somewhere and my horse was fine until we got in the ring and she was following other is when she got a bit excited, and as I said this week she was much better.

So I guess what im trying to say is, yes you are right the judge does have the right to refuse to ride a horse if its misbehaving, however you dont no if your horse will misbehave in a show environment unless you give it a go and thats what I did.
 
Katie Jerram commented on exactly this (Judges shouldn't be expected to school, and bad behaviour should not be rewarded) in her article in H&H back in October - she is spot on!
 
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