Judging of BYEH at Houghton today

[whatawizard]

We watched the entire 4 yr old class today, while there were a number of lovely horses in it would somebody please explain how the horse that won got 38 out of 40 for its jumping when it rolled a pole and had a stop in the double and deposited its jockey, allowed to jump that fence again, it then deposited jockey again during the showing part and reared up during the prize giving, granted he was stunning but surely manners, attitude and trainability are important in a future eventer. The horse that was second also got good jumping marks in spite of rolling 2 poles. Most spectators were perplexed!

 

[OldGit]

We watched the entire 4 yr old class today, while there were a number of lovely horses in it would somebody please explain how the horse that won got 38 out of 40 for its jumping when it rolled a pole and had a stop in the double and deposited its jockey, allowed to jump that fence again, it then deposited jockey again during the showing part and reared up during the prize giving, granted he was stunning but surely manners, attitude and trainability are important in a future eventer. The horse that was second also got good jumping marks in spite of rolling 2 poles. Most spectators were perplexed!

Me too, given this I think BE ought to show me having had several wins, even just for entertainment value

 

[Charlotte125]

I completed in these classes with my horse as a 4 and 5 year old. Altough he isnt a big moving warmblood he always did a nice dressage and he never got any showjumping faults. He was beaten by horses getting cricket scores of showjumping faults. Also his conformation marks ranged from 7/15 to 13/15. I understand different judges have different opinions but it doesnt really make sense. It was a good experience but i think it is the same as a showing class, one persons opinon.

 

[MillbrookSong]

They do vary a lot but I think falling off/stops should be marked down more than having a pole. They love forward jumping horses that jump quite high although buster did get quite good jumping marks

out of interest was it a pro that won as a name usually adds points!!

 

[Thistle]

are the results up anywhere?

 

[Gamebird]

If that is true then I am horrified and disappointed. However it does leave the winner with quite a lot of work to do before Burghley!

As far as I understand it there should be consideration given for both jumping faults and jumping style ie. a horse who had a fence down but jumped forwards and fluidly with a good shape over a fence should be marked as high, if not higher than a scrappy stop/start clear. And like in a working hunter refusing should be more highly penalised than a pole down.

I spoke to a very knowledgeable and experienced lady last night and expressed my doubts about my horse's chances at Bramham. She said that as long as I do a decent dressage and jump a nice forwards clear I've as much chance as anyone else. Apparently not!

 

[Gamebird]

To add: I would love to see the results too, they're not on the Houghton website and I've found BYEH results in general quite hard to find online. Would be delighted if anyone fancies PMing me with details of the winner!

 

[kelz07]

Has anybody found the results of the BYEH classes yet? I have been searching online and cannot find tham anywhere. Would love to know the results.

Thanks x

 

[Nando]

For those that were asking, yes it was a 'pro' who won it.

TBF the horse was absolutely stunning, lovely elevated paces and really sharp infront over the fences.... BUT....it had the rider hanging round its neck before even starting when it spun round, took ages to get round to the first fence as it was spooking at anything that moved (although it was being given loads of time to get used to the arena) The rider had to work the whole way round and all credit, did a damn good job at getting him thro the finish, esp after being very forcibly ejected at the second part of the double!

We commented at the time that wouldnt much fancy sitting on it round xc as it was so sharp and spooky so like everyone else was quite surprised when it won - granted a 4yo will prob get over the spooky phase but we watched some really nice queit genuine 4yo's go round, not always being presented to the fences on the right striding etc but still remaining honest. To me that is what makes a good horse - I guess most of our ideas of a potential top event horse are somewhat different from the judges........?!

 

[Baydale]

I'd have trainability well up there in my list of attributes for potential event horses...

 

[stencilface]

I think thats what you get in showing though. And whilst yes, I think having a pole isn't a disaster, that should be it - one pole - not four etc. That imho, does not show a horse who is careful or learns anything from mistakes

That said, I love watching the 4yo classes - some of them look to be having so much fun, even if the jockeys aren't

 

[kerilli]

I've been reliably informed that it was Ben Hobday who was riding the horse who won.

 

[legend22]

Nothing would surprise me in this type of class. Entered a few when they first started got told once I wasn't placed higher as he was 'more of a 3 day event type'.....isn't that what your looking for! Also only ever got average jumping marks when the horse was an exceptional jumper - was intermediate and Grade B at the age of 6!! Switched him to pure SJ in the end - doesn't matter who you are there, you either leave the fences up and your quick enough or you don't!!

 

[langside]

I've been reliably informed that it was Ben Hobday who was riding the horse who won.

Yup and for sale for 25k

 

[WellyBaggins]

Crikes!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Broomsticks]

I have to agree with OP, I was beaten into 11th place at gatcombe BYEH last year by a horse who had a stop, a pole and totally demolished one fence, when we had jumped a clear round and had competitve dressage, but somehow this horse got more jumping points?! unfortunately as with some showing i think it's sometimes who you are and not what you are sat on!

 

[Clarey100]

http://www.houghtoninternational.co.uk/docs/BYEH-4yr-results.pdf
Is the link to the results. I competed and I did not recieve any feedback of any kind only the score. I think it would be benefical to receive a written feedback sheet like you get at the BEF grading. What do you think?

 

[Johnboy1]

In answer to the above comments.....The basic criteria in judging the BYEH competitions is to find a potential four star horse , which will, with correct training and production, develop physically and mentally into a top clas event horse. The judges look for a loose athletic horse with a promising juming technique. In the jumping phase, a 4 year old should not neccessarily be penalised for knocking a fence down or having one refusal, providing he learns from the mistake.
There were several ''nice'' 4 year olds in the class, but very few with potential that matched the winners ( IMO) and all of the judges were in agreement. Yes he was sharp, but this is a ''potential'' class, not a results based competition, and that is why the competition is judged by experienced riders and trainers of ''top class '' event horses. All four judges at Houghton have ridden and/or trained several horses to four star level, and appreciate completely the qualities to make it to that level ( trainability included). As quite rightly mentioned above, the 4 year old winner did indeed have a fence down, and a ''green'' runnout at the second part of a double, and learnt from both mistakes....... and was without doubt the most talented horse in the class ( again IMO) My question to those posting negatively about this result is... Have you produced, trained, and/or ridden a horse to four star level, or have the experience to develop a horse of this calibre to the top.... if the answer is no - it is not suprising that you did not appreciate the judges result.

 

[spam]

Amazing - and I thought judge bashing was only a BD sport but it clearly spreads through all disciplines ! Was anyone watching the warm up ?? Has RollKur also spread to eventing too ?????

 

[measles]

Competition loses all credibility if winning horse can stop, have poles & ditch their rider.

 

[Bearskin]

Johnboy1, if the competition was judged purely on potential perhaps it would be better to show the horses in hand, loose schooled and loose jumped? If a 4 yr old and it's rider cannot complete a simple sj course without parting company they should not be winning the class.

The BYEH competition was started as a showcase for young and talented horses. It would be best for these horse's competitive future if they were produced correctly, and only entered in such competitions when their education and experience were up to standard (ie up to jumping six 3" fences without stopping or ditching their rider)

 

[Gamebird]

Have you produced, trained, and/or ridden a horse to four star level, or have the experience to develop a horse of this calibre to the top.... if the answer is no - it is not suprising that you did not appreciate the judges result.

The person who replied suggesting that 'trainability' was important most certainly has!

 

[Thistle]

Don't think you need to have produced to 4* to know that all the talent and ability in the world is worth nothing if you can't train it.

I am not suggesting that the winning horse was not trainable, just that maybe it wasn't quite at a stage in it's training where it could show it's true potential in the ring.

Perhaps the judges know the horse and know it's true potential, therefore weren't judging what they saw on the day?

BTW Johnboy1, there are quite a number of very experienced riders and producers who frequent this board. Don't assume we are all numpties!

 

[whatawizard]

I am not disputing the type and quality and obvious potential of the winning horse but I still feel that manners and attitude along with trainability are important too, on the whole the 4 year olds were well mannered and behaved well apart from this one and coped with all the distractions that the main ring at Houghton offers. Off to bramham for fridays BYEH so will be interesting to see what happens there.

 

[Johnboy1]

I was not pressuming that anyone is a ''numptie'' as Thistle suggested...... I would ask though how '' produced '' some people would expect a 4 year old to be...... to perform foot perfectly in that environment. Main arena, with all the distractions that even 7 year olds in the CCI classes find intimidating............. I certainly would not want to see a lovely young horse ''overproduced'' as I would be concerned how long it would last. It will be interesting to see how the horses who qualified in this competition develop in the next few months and perform a Burghley, and furthermore progress through the levels. We are all entitled to our opinions , however they may differ, and the judges will only be proven ''right'' if the horse is sold to/ridden by someone who can develop him correctly, taking time, and indeed he realises his full potential and reaches 4 star. Maybe we should re-open this topic in 5 or 6 years time when he should be reaching that level...................................

 

[kerilli]

Johnboy1, nobody is expecting any 4 yr old to be "foot perfect", but to win on any particular day, I do think that a horse, however talented, should not ditch its rider (obviously a good, experienced one, at that) twice in the ring. This to me implies that the horse was not quite ready yet, so possibly should not have won however promising s/he is - which doesn't mean that I think it should be overproduced either, btw. But there is surely a gulf between overproduced and 'prepared enough to be reasonably rideable by a good jockey"...?!

 

[henryhorn]

Gosh Johnboy1, are you saying then that unless we have actually trained a horse to four star level, our opinions count for nothing?
You must be pretty new to this forum or you would know there are vastly experienced people on here .
A horse that behaves as the winner apparently did does not deserve to be placed first, yes, a pole down, but a run out? No way.
The course should be well within the capabilities of a properly trained four year old, given most are backed in the autumn of their third year and have had possibly eight months of ridden work.
That run out to me signifies a horse who later in his career may try the same trick again, and far better is an honest type who at least does as requested.
I'll be watching how the entrants progress over the next four or five years, and will be interested to see where they are by then. You may be right, what's required is potential no matter how raw, but I think they had the trainability factor too low in their priorities by the sound of the report, and without that, even the most talented horse may never progress from the lowest levels.

 

[YorkshireLady]

Just wondering who saw what happened as there are different types of run out after all?

I am confused myself as some seem to say twice on floor...one once...how many knock downs etc. I appreciate that we all want horses that are trainable...but you also need heart and spark for eventing at the top level? Is that what was shown, ie that elusive something rather than NAUGHTINESS?

 

[Johnboy1]

Oh to live in the ideal world where no young horse questions what is asked and then on asking again has learnt and answers correctly....... surely that is how they learn ?????? I prefer a thinking horse to one that bumbles on just doing as it is told . How many of our top 4 star horses took a little bit of time and education as a young horse...........or am I being naive..................????

 

[zefragile]

Oh to live in the ideal world where no young horse questions what is asked and then on asking again has learnt and answers correctly....... surely that is how they learn ?????? I prefer a thinking horse to one that bumbles on just doing as it is told . How many of our top 4 star horses took a little bit of time and education as a young horse...........or am I being naive..................????

That's not the problem though, is it? The problem is when a horse that has had numerous problems in the competition wins