Judging of BYEH at Houghton today

[Weezy]

Does anyone have a list of previous winners of the classes? I would love to have a look at what they are doing now as I am not entirely convinced that the class really does stand for *searching for the ultimate event horse* and has actually just turned into a showing class....happy to be proven wrong

 

[marble]

why do we not just agree that 4 or even 5 year olds should not be out competing in high profile classes, and just agree (that is two agrees) that it is all about selling young horses......the only horses that should be out competing are in-hand show horses, and how often do the top ones go on to be prize winning ridden horses, or race-horses. We used to have well supported 3 year old loose jumping classes in Northern Ireland until it was realised that all it was doing was spoiling young horses with potential. Sport horses should be enjoying life at 4, not subjected to this. I would be interested to see, how many YEH have gone on, to actually compete at high level. Not just one or two, but actual true figures, one I remember and I thought he was beautiful, I think was called Haddon House something, he was dun.....and I am sure there are plenty of experts out there who will put me right.

 

[Johnboy1]

Primores Pride was a BYEH final winner.............. as was Trebetherick who completed Badminton this year with Sarah Cohen, and Irish Jester , produced bt Angela Tucker and now ridden By Sarah Cohen has won at 3 star Level.... ( he won the 4 and 5 year old finals)..... so some do go on...... but it is all down to the Judges choosing the right quality and ability to start with..........................

 

[Bearskin]

And Miner's Frolic...

 

[teapot]

Does anyone have a list of previous winners of the classes? I would love to have a look at what they are doing now as I am not entirely convinced that the class really does stand for *searching for the ultimate event horse* and has actually just turned into a showing class....happy to be proven wrong

Here you go: http://www.burghley-horse.co.uk/YEH/resultsarchive.htm

 

[marble]

thank you for those names, but I think the classes have been going since 2002, how many of the winners are still eventing and how many are top class, Irish Jester is a good example, but am I wrong in thinking that I have not seen that horse out this season, would love to be proved wrong.....waiting to be hammered!!!!

 

[zefragile]

thank you for those names, but I think the classes have been going since 2002, how many of the winners are still eventing and how many are top class, Irish Jester is a good example, but am I wrong in thinking that I have not seen that horse out this season, would love to be proved wrong.....waiting to be hammered!!!!

http://www.britisheventing.com/asp-net/Events/Results.aspx?HorseId=56620

 

[Weezy]

OK:

Just a sample - 4yo class

Postcode - never registered BE, 1999
BARBER'S BERBER - never registered BE, 2000
Slick Mick - competing at Novice, 2001
RHODIUM - competed to PN up to 2003, 2002
IRISH JESTER - competed to 3*, 2003
TREBETHERICK - competed to 4*, 2004
PEBBLY AGA KHAN, Intermediate/2*, 2005

That will do...
So it would appear to me that the judges have gotten better

 

[marble]

thank you for link to irish jesters results, but, what about all the other horses that competed in his class at BYEH, I am really not trying to be difficult, but still think young horse classes, be it eventing or show jumping are to much to soon......horses are not machines, and slowly slowly catchy monkey applies to them as much as anything or anybody else. Maybe warmbloods are different, mature more quickly etc etc, but good old english breeding or even more so Irish take time to mature, and once at top stay there for longer......

 

[deskbound]

A very QR - but would agree on principle that for BYEH, a horse should not be *overproduced* and that such accredited judges should be able to spot the raw material. However, having watched the 5yo final last year at Burghley, I find this concept hard to reconcile with the reality of some very nice, but utterly foot perfect horses.... It's a great feat to achieve and in no way am I detracting, but is it possible that within the perfection sought to win at this level do we lose some of the initiative that makes a top class event horse....?

Just a thought, feel free to shoot down

 

[Johnboy1]

Just to add to the 4 year results from Burghley..... Irish Jester went back the following year and won as a five year old too............ The judge who co-judged Trebetherick to win the 4 year olds and Irish Jester to win the 5 year olds was the Judge who gave Shadow Boxer top Jumping marks at Houghton........

 

[Johnboy1]

A very QR - but would agree on principle that for BYEH, a horse should not be *overproduced* and that such accredited judges should be able to spot the raw material. However, having watched the 5yo final last year at Burghley, I find this concept hard to reconcile with the reality of some very nice, but utterly foot perfect horses.... It's a great feat to achieve and in no way am I detracting, but is it possible that within the perfection sought to win at this level do we lose some of the initiative that makes a top class event horse....?

Just a thought, feel free to shoot down

Quite agree Deskhound - ytherefore don t mind seeing a potential superstar 'in the raw''......

 

[deskbound]

QR (again, sorry, multitasking) - FWIW and in my VERY humble opinion, some of the top rated horses at Burghley were almost verging on the overproduced.... But I guess consistency in judging is something that we all strive for, but in reality, people are all different, and these things are never clear....!

 

[kerilli]

thank you for link to irish jesters results, but, what about all the other horses that competed in his class at BYEH, I am really not trying to be difficult, but still think young horse classes, be it eventing or show jumping are to much to soon......horses are not machines, and slowly slowly catchy monkey applies to them as much as anything or anybody else. Maybe warmbloods are different, mature more quickly etc etc, but good old english breeding or even more so Irish take time to mature, and once at top stay there for longer......

I can't agree enough with this. I hate to see young horses being asked too much too soon.

 

[TarrSteps]

But then the question become what is "too much"? Too much for a horse with limited ability might not be too much for a horse with buckets of talent that needs only a few repetitions to get things right.

Same with production. I watched a very skilful older horseman jump a just backed horse at an auction once. He was really just messing around but within about half a dozen he had it happily popping a little 3'+ course, even doing his changes. I even had the idiots version of that myself, riding a horse for an auction - he'd never jumped before and by the end of the viewings he was cheerfully jumping some good sized jumps in an electric atmosphere. Obviously most horses could not have done that and no one asked them the questions, but those two obviously did and were better for it.

These are classes to test the "top end". They are not even, strictly speaking, development classes as they are not "get out and have a go" training situations for the average horse and producer. People may use them that way but that's not their purpose, they're more like exams. (And in the way of the world, some of us skated through our exams with little prep, some had to work much harder to achieve the same standard, and some showed flashes of brilliance regardless of what they had or hadn't been taught.)

Now whether or not that means they accurately predict which horses will go on and which won't is a different question. Far too many variables. What they may predict is which horses, if they get all the breaks and go on can WIN consistently at the highest levels because they have the raw material to do so.

And yes, they are a showcase for selling. Again, that's not really the purpose but you can't really stop people from using them that way.

All that said, on principle, I think if you fall off, you're done, just like in any other class these days. It may mean the best horse gets penalised but it would work that way in Badminton show jumping, too.

 

[Santa_Claus]

ok because I was very bored this evening I did some research. Below are all the horses placed 1st-3rd since the start of the BYEH series.
Basics are that there have been 14 horses which have competed at 3* level or above only 4 of which have competed at 4* level out of 72 horses total although obviously I have included up to last years results so if you discount the last 3 years of 5 YOs and 4 years of 4YOs (ie those under 9) that means;

14 horses out of 53 or 26% of horses ages 9+ which have placed 1st to 3rd in BYEH finals have competed at 3* or above.

1998
5yo
Pimmores Pride 4* speaks for himself
Lahana Rocket competed sucessfully at 2* in 2002 no further FEI results
The Ladies Man no results beyond good novice results 1999
4yo
Abbyjack - never registered according to BE/FEI site!
Perryfields Caspar - good results to 2* in 2001 no further results.
Nutbeam Marquis - good results at novice in debut season in 2000. no further results

1999
5yo
CAVALCADE - good results up to 3* last result 2007
KINGSWELL BRIGHT & BREEZY - competed to advanced last results 2001
MORNINGTON CRESENT - competed to Intermediate/* with good results. nothing since 2003
4yo
POST CODE - Other than few novices in 2001 has been and still is competing at Intro and PN
HELLO AGAIN - not registered in this name
FABRICATION - some good results at PN in 2000 and 2001. not competed since

2000
5yo
GOOD SPORT II - competed to 3*. one outing withdrawn before XC last year
JOLLY HACK - not registered in this name
SHANNON DALES SKATMAN - competed to A/2*. results this year
4yo
BARBER'S BERBER - 4 runs (2 wins) pn/N in 2002 only.
PRIMITIVE HABIT - competed successfully to 3* level. last run 2006
PRIMITIVE HERB - 3 runs in 2001 at PN only

2001
5yo
PRIMITIVE HABIT - as above competed successfully to 3* level. last run 2006
THE NIGHT FLIGHT - not registered in this name
PHOEBUS - competed to 4* (still competing)
4yo
SLICK MICK - never competed above novice. still competing
SEVRUGA - not registered in this name
VENERABLE - competed with good results at 2* then 2006 seems to have gone a bit pete tong and no further results

2002
5yo
EARLY RISING - good results at Novice. last ran 2009
RUN OF THE MILL - competed with good results at A/2* now deceased.
RED LIGHT - competed to I/2* last ran 2009
4yo
RHODIUM - one season at pn/intro 2003 with good results. nothing further
BLUE VALENTINE - good results intro/PN 2003/2004 then no further results.
BROADSTONE LEONA - not registered in this name

2003
5yo
MINER'S FROLIC - speaks for himself!
LASPEN ROCK STAR - competed with good results at I/2* up to 2005 now deceased.
MATCHPLAY II - good results to 3* last competed 2007 (FEI)
4yo
IRISH JESTER (TOMMY) - good results A/3* still competing
WAIKIKI BAY (ANOTHER RETREAT) - good results to I last competed 2008
WHIGGY'S WAY - one season with good restuls PN\N nothing since 2004

2004
5yo
IRISH JESTER - good results A/3* still competing
WATERFORD FAIR TRY - competed to novice. nothing since 2006
DRIVING AMBITION II - competed at 2* nothing since 2006
4YO
TREBETHERICK - competing at 4* still competing
FLYPAST LEGEND - results to Intermediate. nothing past 2007
SHOWTIME - results to 3* still competing

2005
5yo
ZEUS OF RUSHALL - good results to 3* still competing
BOLEBEC AZTEC - competed to I/1* with decent results. nothing past 2007
TOKAY - good results up to N in 2005 then sent to america. result at 1*
4yo
PEBBLY AGA KHAN - very good results at 2*/I still competing
FINAL ENCORE - good results at N/I still competing
DOVECOTE DEXTERS DITTO - competed to N no results since 2008

2006
5yo
TREQUITE - competed to I/1* no results since 2008
LEAP OF JOY - competed to N no results since 2008
REDESIGNED - competed to 3* with good results still competing
4yo
COTTON KING - competed to 2* no results last competed 2009
BILLY LANDRETTI - very good results I/2* still competing
VARISIENNE - very good results at Novice (especially this season!)

2007
5yo
Pebbly Grand Design - very good results at novice, nothing since 2008
High Old Times - competed to novice, last result 2009
Billy Landretti - as above very good results I/2* still competing
4yo
Eye Candy - one completion in 2008!
That’s Another Fine Mess - results to I/1* still competing
Weeton Whin - good results I/1* still competing.

2008
5yo
BILLY SHANNON - good results I/1* still competing
BAY MY HERO - very good results up to 1* still competing
BEESWING II - good results I/1* still copmeting
4yo
BILLY BE COOL - 2 very good results as 5yo in 2009 at pn, not run yet in 2010
BILLY BE BETTER - competing at intro/PN this year
PEBBLY PETITE FILUE - not register in this name

2009
5YO
BILLY BE COOL - 2 very good results as 5yo in 2009 at pn, not run yet in 2010
BILLY BEWARE - good results at PN/N this season
FERNHILL PIMMS - 3 double clears at Novice this season
4yo
AZARAH - not registered
BILLY BUCK - not registered
MISS GRACE - 4 runs this season (3 top 4!) at intro/Pn.

 

[deskbound]

Thanks Santa, that's really interesting.

TS - as ever, very wise words!!

Possibly an NB - Billy Be Cool (I think) is entire so may be on stud duties...?

 

[diggerbez]

and flypast legend was sold to the states....

 

[KitC]

ok because I was very bored this evening I did some research. Below are all the horses placed 1st-3rd since the start of the BYEH series.
Basics are that there have been 14 horses which have competed at 3* level or above only 4 of which have competed at 4* level out of 72 horses total although obviously I have included up to last years results so if you discount the last 3 years of 5 YOs and 4 years of 4YOs (ie those under 9) that means;

14 horses out of 53 or 26% of horses ages 9+ which have placed 1st to 3rd in BYEH finals have competed at 3* or above.

1998
5yo
Pimmores Pride 4* speaks for himself
Lahana Rocket competed sucessfully at 2* in 2002 no further FEI results
The Ladies Man no results beyond good novice results 1999
4yo
Abbyjack - never registered according to BE/FEI site!
Perryfields Caspar - good results to 2* in 2001 no further results.
Nutbeam Marquis - good results at novice in debut season in 2000. no further results

1999
5yo
CAVALCADE - good results up to 3* last result 2007
KINGSWELL BRIGHT & BREEZY - competed to advanced last results 2001
MORNINGTON CRESENT - competed to Intermediate/* with good results. nothing since 2003
4yo
POST CODE - Other than few novices in 2001 has been and still is competing at Intro and PN
HELLO AGAIN - not registered in this name
FABRICATION - some good results at PN in 2000 and 2001. not competed since

2000
5yo
GOOD SPORT II - competed to 3*. one outing withdrawn before XC last year
JOLLY HACK - not registered in this name
SHANNON DALES SKATMAN - competed to A/2*. results this year
4yo
BARBER'S BERBER - 4 runs (2 wins) pn/N in 2002 only.
PRIMITIVE HABIT - competed successfully to 3* level. last run 2006
PRIMITIVE HERB - 3 runs in 2001 at PN only

2001
5yo
PRIMITIVE HABIT - as above competed successfully to 3* level. last run 2006
THE NIGHT FLIGHT - not registered in this name
PHOEBUS - competed to 4* (still competing)
4yo
SLICK MICK - never competed above novice. still competing
SEVRUGA - not registered in this name
VENERABLE - competed with good results at 2* then 2006 seems to have gone a bit pete tong and no further results

2002
5yo
EARLY RISING - good results at Novice. last ran 2009
RUN OF THE MILL - competed with good results at A/2* now deceased.
RED LIGHT - competed to I/2* last ran 2009
4yo
RHODIUM - one season at pn/intro 2003 with good results. nothing further
BLUE VALENTINE - good results intro/PN 2003/2004 then no further results.
BROADSTONE LEONA - not registered in this name

2003
5yo
MINER'S FROLIC - speaks for himself!
LASPEN ROCK STAR - competed with good results at I/2* up to 2005 now deceased.
MATCHPLAY II - good results to 3* last competed 2007 (FEI)
4yo
IRISH JESTER (TOMMY) - good results A/3* still competing
WAIKIKI BAY (ANOTHER RETREAT) - good results to I last competed 2008
WHIGGY'S WAY - one season with good restuls PN\N nothing since 2004

2004
5yo
IRISH JESTER - good results A/3* still competing
WATERFORD FAIR TRY - competed to novice. nothing since 2006
DRIVING AMBITION II - competed at 2* nothing since 2006
4YO
TREBETHERICK - competing at 4* still competing
FLYPAST LEGEND - results to Intermediate. nothing past 2007
SHOWTIME - results to 3* still competing

2005
5yo
ZEUS OF RUSHALL - good results to 3* still competing
BOLEBEC AZTEC - competed to I/1* with decent results. nothing past 2007
TOKAY - good results up to N in 2005 then sent to america. result at 1*
4yo
PEBBLY AGA KHAN - very good results at 2*/I still competing
FINAL ENCORE - good results at N/I still competing
DOVECOTE DEXTERS DITTO - competed to N no results since 2008

2006
5yo
TREQUITE - competed to I/1* no results since 2008
LEAP OF JOY - competed to N no results since 2008
REDESIGNED - competed to 3* with good results still competing
4yo
COTTON KING - competed to 2* no results last competed 2009
BILLY LANDRETTI - very good results I/2* still competing
VARISIENNE - very good results at Novice (especially this season!)

2007
5yo
Pebbly Grand Design - very good results at novice, nothing since 2008
High Old Times - competed to novice, last result 2009
Billy Landretti - as above very good results I/2* still competing
4yo
Eye Candy - one completion in 2008!
That’s Another Fine Mess - results to I/1* still competing
Weeton Whin - good results I/1* still competing.

2008
5yo
BILLY SHANNON - good results I/1* still competing
BAY MY HERO - very good results up to 1* still competing
BEESWING II - good results I/1* still copmeting
4yo
BILLY BE COOL - 2 very good results as 5yo in 2009 at pn, not run yet in 2010
BILLY BE BETTER - competing at intro/PN this year
PEBBLY PETITE FILUE - not register in this name

2009
5YO
BILLY BE COOL - 2 very good results as 5yo in 2009 at pn, not run yet in 2010
BILLY BEWARE - good results at PN/N this season
FERNHILL PIMMS - 3 double clears at Novice this season
4yo
AZARAH - not registered
BILLY BUCK - not registered
MISS GRACE - 4 runs this season (3 top 4!) at intro/Pn.

Could the horses that have "not been registered" have been sold abroad?

 

[kerilli]

Okaay, sticking my neck out here, but how many of these horses have been remarkable for any kind of longevity within the sport?
Even Primmore's Pride, probably the best eventer in all 3 phases i've ever seen, couldn't fault him, was tragically not tough enough to keep competing. iirc Cotton King showed oodles of talent but has had soundness issues, could be mistaken though.
Miner's Frolic may be the one big exception so far...
Does anyone else think that 'too much too young' could be at work here?

 

[MiaBella]

Looking down the lists of the finalists, The Frog was 7th as a 5yr old. He hasn't done too badly! In 6th place that year was Hippolyte.

Weston Justice was also a top 10 finalist as a 4 and 5yr old. Dunauger was a finalist as a 5yr old, as was Major Buck and Stormhill Michael. Cool Mountain as a 4yr old was in the top 10 as was Nick of Thyme.

Take It 2 The Limit was placed as a 5yr old.

So a fair few have gone on to be successful, a number of this years Badminton contenders were in the finalists for BYEH. Plenty of others have gone on to be successful and there will be many that have been sold on to less talented or amataur riders who don't have the skills/time/money to get a horse to 4* even if the horse has the talent

That aside though, many of those in the BYEH are produced by professionals which obviously gives them another headstart in their career. Often they are owned by people who have the money to keep them with professional riders which means they are better placed to do well.

 

[sw123]

Rhodium who won 4yo but didnt event went on to be a HOYS show hack - apparently it never really jumped very well anyway!!!

 

[tigers_eye]

Santa, you're a geek! As an academic exercise it would be interesting to do this the other way round, take say horses who have finished in the top 10 at the British Open in the last 10 years and see if they ever did BYEH and if so did they do well? I think that's a very high success rate though of the top-3 placed horses, when you factor in injury, selling abroad and rider competance. But then I'm a fairly glass half full person.

 

[marble]

gosh, how long did it take you to get all those statistics, or are you just that way inclined, still must, on this occasion stick to my guns, still feel to many are not going on and staying the distance until teens, probably comletely wrong, but ready to be shot down again.

 

[Santa_Claus]

me geek noooo

Only took about an hour flitting between list BE and FEI sites as said was bored last night

I would have looked further down each list at more finalists but then I would have been doing it for hours

It is definetly producing top class horses but I do wonder if thats because these are horses which the pros have already picked out as having the talent and are producing accordingly. The fact they are with a pro and prob the pro that will take them up through the levels is always going to help.

I'm useless at who is and isn't a pro eventer so can't say one way or other but from those that have gone to 3/4* did any compete at the final with an unknown?

 

[marble]

now come on santa, me think you being too modest, I bet you know every top pro, and I am sure you can find out and produce percentages to show whether these classes are doing the job, they were intended for..... I await with baited breath and will return in an hour or so, for these figures, because after all, is this not what this thread was started for?
and another thing how do you get those icons to go where you want them to and not were they want to go to.....see the dam thing went up there again. blast and bother

 

[TarrSteps]

Just to be argumentative . . .

You can argue these classes are doing exactly what they're designed to do then - identify horses that go on to success at FEI levels in eventing. I think the odds look pretty good, at least when weighed against the horse pool as a whole.

But are people asking whether or not they would identify a horses that's not been previously identified as a top prospect, as in already picked out of the herd and placed with a good producer? That's probably less likely, in part because people who breed and produce good event horses already know what they're looking at, and partly because, as mentioned, those horses already have a head start.

The other stats that would be interesting would be, as above, how many current top horses didn't do these classes at all; and how many did the classes but didn't do well yet went on to success.

It does make me laugh a bit, though. People seem to be quick to dismiss "warmblood breeding" yet this sort of attention to statistics, combined with the talents of good breeders/horsemen obviously, are exactly the sort of thing that's made those books so successful. It's true there are exceptions to every rule, but that doesn't necessarily mean you should bet that way.

 

[YorkshireLady]

I am not sure that you would see more breakdowns in the the BYEH finalists compared to eventers in general...though someone I am sure can prove us wrong.

 

[TableDancer]

Sorry, late to the party as always

Have read all the replies but am now in a rush so....

If the horse who won was truly in a different class then I don't have a problem with the spooks as a 4yo - I agree that the very best horses are often tricksy at that age, and would hate to see the little blighter being drilled to within an inch of his life in order to be foot perfect on the day. It is/was only May for crissakes - will be interesting to see if he's a bit more established by September. Would have loved to have seen it though as Ben takes a bit of dislodging

Re the stats (whoa, Santa, you need to get out more ) personally I would say those stack up pretty well in terms of identifying new talent. I think if you compared it to say percentage of total 5yos registered in a particular year which went on to make the grade it would look very favourable (go on, I dare you Santa ) By the time you take into account those sold abroad, those who get injured on the way up etc etc I think it's quite impressive - perhaps skewed slightly by the fact that most of the highly-placed are, for a variety of reasons, ridden/produced by pros therefore are given the best chance of ongoing success. Interesting thread btw

 

[mik]

Ok, but in a way these horses wold go on an event anyway, they are pre-chosen by professionals and brought on for the job, so isn't this a self fulfilling prophecy? I think the stats for horses not in the young horse classes that go on to succeed, would be very interesting. Well done santa, by the way.
I also agree talented young horses are often difficult, but agree that these classes are pretty demanding.
Some horses take a bit of time to get going physically and mentally.