Judging of BYEH at Houghton today

[SusieT]

I'd rather have a horse I can sit on than one with 'talent' that's brain is too sharp to be successful...
If the horse was so green there is an arguement it shouldn't have been presented to the competition...

 

[measles]

Hear, hear! It doesn't sound as if the experience was a positive one for the horse in question. Surely he can't have come away with an educational outing if his rider came off twice and he stopped and had fences?

 

[Johnboy1]

Are some of you being a little uncompromising.......... Main arena, 10 fences including a double, lots to look at, that even spooked some of the CCI horses creating stops , run outs, falls ,and fences down. But a 4 year old is expected not to blink an eye in the same situation......... I wonder , did anyone complain on the day , either to the organisers or to the judges ?

 

[zefragile]

Are some of you being a little uncompromising.......... Main arena, 10 fences including a double, lots to look at, that even spooked some of the CCI horses creating stops , run outs, falls ,and fences down. But a 4 year old is expected not to blink an eye in the same situation......... I wonder , did anyone complain on the day , either to the organisers or to the judges ?

No, nobody is expecting the horses to be perfect and all perform beautiful clear round in perfect style. Merely expecting the horses that perform better rounds to be placed above one that had several problems. That, surely, isn't hard to understand?

 

[YorkshireLady]

what is the weighting of the jumping to the other elements etc? Did it have the best confirmation and dressage etc?

 

[measles]

Are some of you being a little uncompromising.......... Main arena, 10 fences including a double, lots to look at, that even spooked some of the CCI horses creating stops , run outs, falls ,and fences down. But a 4 year old is expected not to blink an eye in the same situation......... I wonder , did anyone complain on the day , either to the organisers or to the judges ?

The point is I believe that a 4yo should not have been entered if he couldn't cope to a reasonable standard with the event, the distractions and the undoubted biz; after all the connections had an idea in advance what type of environment he would have to perform in. From what others have said he didn't cope and how being put in a situation where his responses were so far from the desired has helped his education I cannot see.

When I say cope I mean fine to spook at the side of the ring and be tense, novicey in way of going on flat and over the fences (eg jumping too big etc) but not to be unable to complete what's asked of him in the manner that it is asked.

As you'll see my comments are concerned about the horses development and experience that day rather than the judging which I have my own private view on.

 

[Johnboy1]

So a horse who jumps a clear round , but is lacking quality and scope to go beyond pre novice should beat a horse that is green and makes mistakes but has all the ability.... in a competition that is designed to find a potential 4 star event horse.......Interesting logic there.......

 

[georgiegirl]

not saying youngsters should be foot perfect at all and thats why the class doesnt award faults etc the same way sj does but on saying all that I would be mighty peed off if i missed out on a qualifying place and something which had performed like that had come out on top.

 

[measles]

When I say cope I mean fine to spook at the side of the ring and be tense, novicey in way of going on flat and over the fences (eg jumping too big etc) but not to be unable to complete what's asked of him in the manner that it is asked.

I think that you will find that's not what I said above. There is IMO being novicey as any 4yo can quite understandably be allowed and behaving in a way to make the rider fall off twice. Big gap between a spook but with underlying obedience and willingness to work and dumping your very good jockey.

Interesting that the experience the horse had that day is not a consideration for all of us..

 

[SusieT]

Correct training should always be rewarded above flashy looks or paces or jump in this case.
I've seen some very ordinary looking horses go on to do some very extraordinary things..

 

[Doris68]

Best horse in the world, great mover - however - temperament ain't good so is it still the best horse in the world?? I always thought that despite the horse being in possession of movement and jumping ability - if it ain't got the temperament to compete at (any) level, then it won't go that far?? Maybe I'm wrong - do let me know!!!

 

[Hornby]

Johnboy1 - were you a judge at this class, or owner of the winner or just playing devil's advocate?

 

[Johnboy1]

As said previously - the horse was represented to the fence , which he then jumped beautifully, and only deposited the rider by spooking sideways......... not rodeoing, bronking, standing verticle or being nappy.......... He also went into the same arena the next day and jumped a round of fences perfectly ( according to the course builder) who also commented on it being the rightfull winner , despite the green mistakes...... after all , as he said ... it is a ''potential '' class, not a performance class...........

 

[Doris68]

Potential? Yes, however, temperament for the future to compete in 3 disciplines without throwing its toys out of the pram! Mmmm? I wonder.....!

 

[Johnboy1]

Hornby ----- I am an appreciater of talent..... be it equine, canine, human ( have chosen the x factor winner every year bar one ( steve whasthis face ) right at the start of the live shows.....) sadly not Simon Cowell, and sadly not the owner of the horse in question.........

 

[Johnboy1]

Potential? Yes, however, temperament for the future to compete in 3 disciplines without throwing its toys out of the pram! Mmmm? I wonder.....!

I was always under the impression that with correct training a horse could be improved between the age of 4 and when it reaches 4 star level.................even the very sharp ones.

 

[henryhorn]

I don't recall mentioning lack of scope, you put that in!
Nor did I say any of the horses might not go beyond Novice, please don't put words into my mouth.
It appears either the youngster was not properly prepared for the atmosphere, or it hasn't the temperament to cope with it, and time will tell which of those it was.
It is a competition not a showcase and if a horse manages to dump it's rider, run out and have a pole down it doesn't sound a creditable winner (I assume rosettes were awarded) and I can understand anyone feeling miffed.
I'm someone who understands youngsters can be difficult, one of ours regularly dumped it's rider as a baby, to the extent it would get her off on the way to the dressage arena at an event, then get the highest score of the section. I would have been very cross however had he done that IN the arena and still got those marks.
At a time when he was being quirky I posted a remark on here about it and got slated for saying some talented horses can be difficult, in fact one "expert" on here said have the horse euthanised ! (my daughter was so angry she left the forum that day never to return, and she rides 4 * horses on a daily basis in her job)
There is a world of difference in a horse settling with age and being a difficult ride for good, but what's being discussed here is not that, it's should a horse underperform on the day of a comp and still win.
Quite honestly, no it shouldn't.

 

[TarrSteps]

Does anyone have the class criteria?

I can see why people are upset at the result but tbh, I can see the other side, too. Those classes are to identify potential WORLD CLASS horses - ones that a top producer could, with luck, win with at the highest level of the sport. What happens inbetween is largely immaterial from a competitive point of view, it's only important to how the horse develops. Some 4* (or GP) horses win all the way up, many don't for reasons that have nothing to do with ability and everything to do with suitabilty for purpose.

Horses of that calibre are not necessarily *quirky* (a phrase I increasingly loath ) but they are more athletic, quicker, generally less forgiving and more sensitive. That's not a negative for the job they're FOR but it might be for other jobs. But that's sort of the point.

Production is a totally different subject. Top class horses obviously have a percentage of "nature" and a percentage lf "nurture" in their success. BUT a horse without the talent won't get there, no matter how well produced. Luckily it's not pertinent to most horses anyway, but it is pertinent to the mandate of classes like this. Anyway, the ones that didn't win merely have to prove the judges wrong.

I would take exception to the horse continuing after the rider fell off (which seems to have been the situation, not that the horse TRIED to unship its pilot on purpose). In every other discipline this means elimination, "fair" or not. If it's not in the rules of these classes, so be it, but I don't think it would be out of line to bring it in line, as it were.

 

[Saratoga]

Oh come on guys, it's a potential class not a performance class, and if the horse in question showed all the talent but with that showed a bit of intelligence and the ability to question what it is being asked then all the better!

I would much rather be sat on something that was talented but intelligent and wanted to question and then work out what is required of him, over one that pops round with no questions asked but doesn't have half a brain cell and therefore doesn't learn.

Who wants to be sat on a push button horse that doesn't think for itself?! Or am i missing something?!

We are not talking about a nappy 'throwing toys out of pram' ditch the rider moment, we are talking about a sharp spook, and all the best horses are sharp IMO.

 

[sw123]

Its a very difficult class to judge and compete in and to be honest all results in them need to be taken with a pinch of salt - at least 2 of the last 10 years 4yo winners have never gone on to event from Burghley but both have gone on to win at HOYS as show hacks!!!! It is looking for potential - there are plenty of 4yo's who can pop round a small SJ class and do a sweet dressage test so yes the one that wins must have "star quality" and something more than the others.

However, I dont think that if the rider has fallen off etc etc it should be winning, certainly it can be judged very highly as if it has scope and technique then fair enough it is a better jumper than the others but attitude has to come to it as the most talented horses arent anything without the right brain. That said, the circumstances still need to be taken into consideration too.

Both my homebreds have qualified for the finals and both are very different. However both were ridden by a professional and I know that had I been the one on them they wouldnt have had the same results. Judging varies - one got 6/15 for conformation at Houghton last year then 15/15 at both Bramham and Rutland.... he also won Knaptoft as a 4yo having had a pole down as the judge said he had the most fabulous scope and technique but was just a baby coming unbalanced down hill to a fence.

We dont have them over produced but we do makesure they are completely ready to go if they cant go and cope with the atmosphere, jump round jumps and do a good test they dont go.

I dont believe everyone has a fair chance at these classes but I do believe that if you have a very well produced young horse that is scopey, well put together and moves well you can do well. It isnt a game where horses that look to have been produced by an amateur get through.

 

[Nando]

I don't think anyone here is questioning the fact that it is a 'potential' not 'performance' class, or that people wish to see push button mechanical horses go round without thinking- afterall, many of the sharpest horses have gone on to be very succesfull in all disciplines.

Nor does anyone expect a 4yo (or 5yo for that matter) to come out and do exactly what is asked of them without question, esp in an atmospheric ring such as Houghton - gosh, mine was doing the CCI and still had a good look around, it is only natural.

The horse in question (had it not have won this time) would almost def have gone to another qualifier, learnt from Houghton, performed well (as well as a 4yo can be expected) and rightly won - to me, that would show more potential that he learnt from the last outing and came out improved? Surely that would indicate the intelligence and trainability that is so important in event horses?

The point being discussed here is should a horse that ejects the rider and does not comply totally in the other areas of the class have won 'on this occassion' over some of the other equally as impressive ones? Granted none of them had as much stage presence but there were some very tidy, brave jumpers who showed just as much 'potential' on the day whilst retaining their riders!

I think Tarrsteps is right in saying a fall should really be looked upon with a slightly harsher view than simply having a green stop or a few fences - this is a good rider we are talking about here and he didnt just slide out the side door! the horse slammed the brakes on and whipped round in one swift movement...a little more than a innocent spook.

 

[Gamebird]

Its a very difficult class to judge and compete in and to be honest all results in them need to be taken with a pinch of salt - at least 2 of the last 10 years 4yo winners have never gone on to event from Burghley but both have gone on to win at HOYS as show hacks!!!! It is looking for potential - there are plenty of 4yo's who can pop round a small SJ class and do a sweet dressage test so yes the one that wins must have "star quality" and something more than the others.

However, I dont think that if the rider has fallen off etc etc it should be winning, certainly it can be judged very highly as if it has scope and technique then fair enough it is a better jumper than the others but attitude has to come to it as the most talented horses arent anything without the right brain. That said, the circumstances still need to be taken into consideration too.

Both my homebreds have qualified for the finals and both are very different. However both were ridden by a professional and I know that had I been the one on them they wouldnt have had the same results. Judging varies - one got 6/15 for conformation at Houghton last year then 15/15 at both Bramham and Rutland.... he also won Knaptoft as a 4yo having had a pole down as the judge said he had the most fabulous scope and technique but was just a baby coming unbalanced down hill to a fence.

We dont have them over produced but we do makesure they are completely ready to go if they cant go and cope with the atmosphere, jump round jumps and do a good test they dont go.

I dont believe everyone has a fair chance at these classes but I do believe that if you have a very well produced young horse that is scopey, well put together and moves well you can do well. It isnt a game where horses that look to have been produced by an amateur get through.

Agree 100%

 

[diggerbez]

FWIW i think we should remember what BYEH is all about...its about recognising world class potential. yes mere amateurs should have a go at it and be rightly pleased to get a placing...however, its really about trying to identify future top class horses for top class professionals and so you are always going to get a divide in the results that show the 'names' featuring more highly up the order than the non-names. however, i don't think a horse (no matter how scopey/stunning etc) that has deposited its rider twice should be able to win the class..but achieve a top ten placing maybe should be ok...i can't believe that the other horses in the class, from 2nd down...were so bad that they didn't do enough to impress more than a horse who deposited its jockey twice....
i think people are looking at BYEH like a more 'normal' class but it really isn't and as such must be very difficult to judge...

 

[Trolt]

I really felt for the judges in the 4yr old class.

Do you pick the horse that is evidently the best and (in theory) will go on to compete at 4*, but is green and has made mistakes.
Or
Do you pick the horse who is well established for it's level, but probably won't get higher than novice?

If the horse who won, hadn't put in any errors, then without a doubt it should have won. No one watching could possibly argue otherwise.

So what was the judge to do? Seeing as the last stage, after the top 10, is the judges opinion. I don't know the exact wording of the criteria but surely "the judge awards the 10 points to the horse they feel is most likely to become a top quality event horse" and that is what the judge did.
The horse was at the top in terms of ability, scope, movement, paces and confirmation.

I know the rider came off, but over the course of the week riders came off at all levels, even top riders, or well established horses competing at the highest level there had spooks at fillers and banners. I don't think you can hold that against a 4yr old.

 

[Saratoga]

The full 10 marks wasn't awarded to the winner though, it was awarded to the horse that came 2nd. So maybe the reason the winner only got 6 in the last section was because of the naughties in the jumping?

 

[sw123]

Its a separate judge in the last stage who has nothing to do with what has happened before, they're not even meant to watch it so it is a new fresh eye seeing the horses, hence the leader wont necessarily be their 10/10 star quality horse.

 

[SW3]

Looking at the results, the winner and second place both finished on the same score, so are we saying the fact that the winner got a better jumping score (whether rightly or not given that jumping was the section on the event where it decanted its rider etc) meant it beat the other horse into second even though the runner up one got the highest ranking from the judges in the final stage?! I'm a bit confused..! I thought the final section where the judges rank the finalists 10-1 was supposed to be the bit where they take account of presence, star quality etc?? Soooo, judging by what some folk have been saying about the winning horse's star quality I would have expected it to have scored better than 6 at that point! Have I got it all *rse about elbow?

 

[Baydale]

So what was the judge to do? Seeing as the last stage, after the top 10, is the judges opinion. I don't know the exact wording of the criteria but surely "the judge awards the 10 points to the horse they feel is most likely to become a top quality event horse" and that is what the judge did.
The horse was at the top in terms of ability, scope, movement, paces and confirmation.

The judge for the final ten is not one that has judged either the dressage, jumping or confo and should not, as I understand it, have seen any of the horses prior to that. He/she is there purely to judge "for star quality and potential to make the ULTIMATE WORLD CLASS THREE DAY EVENT HORSE." (taken from the Burghley website, I'm not shouting.)

I think a lot of the issues in this post are with the jumping judge and how he/she awarded marks, but, as usual, things have digressed.

I remember hearing that the jumping judge was to award marks out of 5 for each of the 8 fences jumped. Does anyone know if this was ever the case?

 

[Johnboy1]

The Judging criteria for the jumping are in an earlier post on this thread.... and , unlike other competitions ther are no rules re a fall of rider......... this thread is becoming more interesting with the input of others who saw the horse on the day and are familiar with the class and its objectives... most notably... '' the aim of this class is to encourage breeders and trainers to produce and present the type of young horse which will be considered to be the best material to make a WORLD CLASS three day event horse.The judges should bear in mind that they are looking for potential for the future.Unfortunately, all too often, the horse with the moct potential may not be presented in the best manner.'' Quoted from the directives for judging the class.............. It is also mentioned that this class is 'The shop window to view potential four star horses at an early age''.....

 

[Gamebird]

to produce and present the type of young horse which will be considered to be the best material to make a WORLD CLASS three day event horse.

Which is why I'm taking my event-bred proper 3DE type 17hh 5yo to Bramham tomorrow and leaving the 15.2 coloured 5yo at home, even though he is a lovely horse and a really neat jumper.