Cortez
Tough but Fair
That's in the UK; auction and korung riders in Germany are much, much better at presenting young hoses.
Jumping at three???
- Thread starter pistolpete
- Start date
Cloball
Well-Known Member
I am pretty sure I read a small piece of research a while back looking at a link between jumping before 6 and SI issue. I'll see if I can find it.... Might be rubbish.
tristar
Well-Known Member
well i think its all stinks, and i won`be changing my attitude any time soon.
i`m just doing a five yr old, just backed him and we were saying how he has changed even in the last 6 months, but oh says don`t worry if he does`nt do too much till he`s 6!
the pnly outline i want is the one that comes from the horse itself putting itself on the bit, not from side reins, or premature over schooling or the use of certain bits.
having ridden a 20 yr old yesterday who is lovely to ride and look at i won`t be in any rush in the future to ride a 2 1/2 yr old
i think older horses are undervalued
i`m just doing a five yr old, just backed him and we were saying how he has changed even in the last 6 months, but oh says don`t worry if he does`nt do too much till he`s 6!
the pnly outline i want is the one that comes from the horse itself putting itself on the bit, not from side reins, or premature over schooling or the use of certain bits.
having ridden a 20 yr old yesterday who is lovely to ride and look at i won`t be in any rush in the future to ride a 2 1/2 yr old
i think older horses are undervalued
mustardsmum
Well-Known Member
I saw the ad too. I am not sure what I was more surprised at - an unproven 3 year old being sold for £5250 or a 3 year old jumping small courses.......
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
Why?
lannerch
Well-Known Member
Unbroken Unproven youngsters with good breeding go for far more .
SatansLittleHelper
Well-Known Member
The more I learn and understand about horses the more I'm horrified by what is expected of babies. It's no wonder so many horses break down so young.
There is absolutely no reason to be doing ANYTHING with a 3 year old that involves taking a rider IMO. What happened to the days when horses weren't touched until they were 4, let alone jumped..??! Why the rush always, do we just not have the patience to allow them to mature any more..??!
There is absolutely no reason to be doing ANYTHING with a 3 year old that involves taking a rider IMO. What happened to the days when horses weren't touched until they were 4, let alone jumped..??! Why the rush always, do we just not have the patience to allow them to mature any more..??!
mariew
Well-Known Member
I've seen plenty of 4 and 5 year old jump massive courses, and always wondered how much that affects them having been jumping pretty heavily from the word go as a 3 year old. Actually I have no idea but what is the average age a show jumper retires?
Lulwind
Well-Known Member
Can’t be the same one as the price is different. Albeit no rider but this one is going cross country at 3.
https://www.horsequest.co.uk/4/nati.../connemara-ponies/285/connemara-ponies-adults
ref 236272
https://www.horsequest.co.uk/4/nati.../connemara-ponies/285/connemara-ponies-adults
ref 236272
shortstuff99
Well-Known Member
I still think a lot of a horses career is luck as well as training. I've seen plenty of horses backed at 3 doing loads and being sound until late age and I've seen plenty backed 5+ taken it slow and break constantly. A lot is underlying health of the horse (no genetic factors etc) mixed with correct strength training. A horse started late but not trained properly is going to have more issues then one started early but trained properly.
stormox
Well-Known Member
I dont believe it was different years ago. I rode for a dealer in the early 60s and we always broke at 3, and a lot were sat on at 2. And he came from a family of dealers and was doing what he'd always done.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
Always been that way where I've been as well.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
Completely agree with this. I'm taking my 5 year old slowly, but it's because he's weak, not because he's 5. I think he's more likely to break than many horses of 3 who are strong enough to do what he's doing at 5.
Cortez
Tough but Fair
The "old" way was to plough & drive in harness at two (often hitched beside the mother), and then be backed and lightly ridden at three. This is from a Victorian book on horse management published in 1840. I have many, many historical books (going back back as far as the 2nd century BC) which all generally mention riding at three, but no hard work until five. People were not soft in the past, but they did need their horses to stay sound as a matter of life and death.
Errin Paddywack
Well-Known Member
I can remember going to a lecture by Josephine Knowles, she was a Fellow of the BHS if my memory is accurate. She suggested lightly backing at 2 before they got a year older, stronger and more opinionated. She did not advocate putting them into work, just doing the basics.
The only other thing I remember was her teaching us to 'think banana' when passing something the horse was spooking at. Turn the head away from the thing it was scared of and using the outside leg to push it past. That is one of the most useful and sensible things I have ever heard.
The only other thing I remember was her teaching us to 'think banana' when passing something the horse was spooking at. Turn the head away from the thing it was scared of and using the outside leg to push it past. That is one of the most useful and sensible things I have ever heard.
SatansLittleHelper
Well-Known Member
The 2 yards I worked at (mid 90's) didn't touch anything til it was 4. I always thought that was the norm to be honest ?
?Putting it a different way then...why would you not leave a horse until it is more physically and mentally mature..? Surely that is more beneficial to the horse..??
Cortez
Tough but Fair
Why not leave children until they are 23 - 26 years old? That is when humans are physically mature. It's also why sports training starts at a young age with humans to train the body/mind when it is young and plastic for future competence. The question is how hard to push young bodies, and that is where the skill and experience of the trainer comes in. Young human athletes pushed too hard will break down, and the same is true of horses. Young people not trained at all will not be fit and strong when they are older (as evidenced with modern levels of obesity, lack of fitness, posture - and also ignorance!), same with horses.The 2 yards I worked at (mid 90's) didn't touch anything til it was 4. I always thought that was the norm to be honest ?
Putting it a different way then...why would you not leave a horse until it is more physically and mentally mature..? Surely that is more beneficial to the horse..??
stormox
Well-Known Member
The 2 yards I worked at (mid 90's) didn't touch anything til it was 4. I always thought that was the norm to be honest ?
Putting it a different way then...why would you not leave a horse until it is more physically and mentally mature..? Surely that is more beneficial to the horse..??
1) Money. The longer you keep a horse the more it costs to produce, and people dont want to pay more for a 4yr old than a 3 yr old. The younger the horse is when its broken the more profit.
2) Breeders dont want to keep horses till theyre 4 or 5 - if you can sell them at 3 it makes life much easier not having so much youngstock about.
3) Just as its easier to guide younger children to how you want them to behave, its easier to guide younger horses - opinionated teenages can be difficult to mmanage...
TheMule
Well-Known Member
Slow and careful conditioning from 3 is an advantage in a mature young horse IMO. My 2 have both been level growers all the way through and I'd prefer them to start to build carrying muscles now than to be weak framed 4/5 year olds. The way I back them aims to build these muscles so it's not very 'conventional' but is designed for long term soundness.
In the wild they move with the herd from birth which promotes good muscle and strong soft tissue structures. In captivity most horses live in little paddocks and tiny boxes which, I would argue, is far more likely to be the root cause of most of the issues.
In the wild they move with the herd from birth which promotes good muscle and strong soft tissue structures. In captivity most horses live in little paddocks and tiny boxes which, I would argue, is far more likely to be the root cause of most of the issues.
Cortez
Tough but Fair
All of the above are valid points, I would just add that three is the age when the horse is also usually mentally ready to begin to absorb all that he has to learn, and still pliable enough to agree to do it cheerfully.
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LEC
Opinions are like bum holes, everyone has one.
Weirdly my response was going to be the same especially about the way we let them grow up now......
tristar
Well-Known Member
my experience has been that the older 4 to 5 year olds starting light work is that they learn quicker than 3 yr olds because they are actually physically capable of doing what you are asking, and mentally ready, to start work
0 to 5 baby horse, horse grows physically and mentally, 6 to 10 the period of consolidation, horse matures learns the basics and improves, 10 to 20 the years of glory when it all comes together
when someone says about riding 3 yr olds because they are weaker, and easier, i turn off, its sounds like its a battle to be won, and a 4 to 5 yr old is a raging monster of huge strength, which just is`nt the case, its a lack of understanding and a sign of inferior horsemanship to me anyway
my experience of young horses has been that turned out they are very very lively in those first 4 to 5 years, so get enough movement to build themselves up as they grow run and play
not saying they should not be handled though, plenty to learn before 4yrs
0 to 5 baby horse, horse grows physically and mentally, 6 to 10 the period of consolidation, horse matures learns the basics and improves, 10 to 20 the years of glory when it all comes together
when someone says about riding 3 yr olds because they are weaker, and easier, i turn off, its sounds like its a battle to be won, and a 4 to 5 yr old is a raging monster of huge strength, which just is`nt the case, its a lack of understanding and a sign of inferior horsemanship to me anyway
my experience of young horses has been that turned out they are very very lively in those first 4 to 5 years, so get enough movement to build themselves up as they grow run and play
not saying they should not be handled though, plenty to learn before 4yrs
Whoopit
Well-Known Member
Late reply on this post and saw it searching for something else.
Ridden 2.5 - 3yr olds seem to be more common on the US and Europe.
What is the difference of opinion between the UK & others? Why do they seem to have ‘no issue’ with it and the UK do?
Racehorses are the exception in the UK (I had an ex-flat for 10 years and he was never unsound but when I got him as a 2.5yr old I just pottered round on the buckle end, no actual schooling or anything strenuous).
Ridden 2.5 - 3yr olds seem to be more common on the US and Europe.
What is the difference of opinion between the UK & others? Why do they seem to have ‘no issue’ with it and the UK do?
Racehorses are the exception in the UK (I had an ex-flat for 10 years and he was never unsound but when I got him as a 2.5yr old I just pottered round on the buckle end, no actual schooling or anything strenuous).
doodle
Well-Known Member
There is a sj family up north. They have a lovely 5yo 138 pony. Constantly call him the baby. Then numerous pics of him jumping huge fences. And how well he had done in some winter 138 bs champ (I have no idea about bs) so it’s not just the odd big jump. The jumps are huge. All their ponies jump huge and do well at the top level. But the pony is 5 and it really concerns me.
From a very quick google (ie I’m possibly wrong but it looks like the right height) it is 1.25m ?
From a very quick google (ie I’m possibly wrong but it looks like the right height) it is 1.25m ?
Whoopit
Well-Known Member
Why do the UK seem so much more concerned about it than US or Europe though? People in other countries aren’t unaware of growth plates etc
Wishfilly
Well-Known Member
That does sound depressing on the face of it- it would be really interesting to read the study if you have a link? I suppose there is also a percentage of horses who ahve sound/happy ridden lives, but don't compete, and also broodmares, so the 25% is not quite as awful as it first sounds. But it does make one wonder about what we ask of horses.
Neither of these things are surprising in my recent experience of browsing lots of ads. I see similar sounding ones for Connemaras on facebook fairly regularly. I'm not saying I agree with it- just that it is what happens.
LEC
Opinions are like bum holes, everyone has one.
we have age classes and the decent 5yos will jump 1.20/1.25m in horses. No idea about ponies. I don’t think the UK are that concerned, I think amateurs are.
if you speak to any world class pro they work their horses under 6 enough to know what they have, enough to condition them and enough to educate. They don’t start really doing much with any of them till 6. Same as all the other nations apart from reining where their careers are over by 7yo as they have been ridden hard since 2yo.
spotty_pony
...
Awful. And regardless of what people think yes it will effect the horse later in life. My lowe mileage 17 year old was diagnosed with navicular this summer. I have owned him since he was 5 and was devastated. Vet said a lot of it will have been to do with what he did as a young horse before I had him.... he is from Ireland and I was told he hunted a season as a 3 year old. Has put me off buying anything with any kind of ridden form in the future unless full history is known.
bubblensqueak
Well-Known Member
just seen this, 14.2 3 year old cob jumpinf walls and gates
horse quest Ref #: 243484
horse quest Ref #: 243484Marigold4
Well-Known Member
I sat on mine aged 4, WTC, a few haks in W and T, now turned away till 5. Hoping there is some real benefit to this as I'm longing to ride and very bored!
I hope this is true! I sat on my 4 year old last summer aged 4. WTC and a few hacks. Max 20 mins for everything. Now waiting till 5. I really hope leaving till 5 has real benefits as I'm longing to ride him. I have owned him from a baby so very long wait. Long reining in walk though this winter and his back is now looking stronger - and he has grown.