Jumping at three???

palo1

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All of the above are valid points, I would just add that three is the age when the horse is also usually mentally ready to begin to absorb all that he has to learn, and still pliable enough to agree to do it cheerfully.

I think this is really valid and has also been the basis on which we have started young horses. When I have had young horses (under 3) for purchase vetted (very rarely actually but a couple of times) the attending vet has advised that backing and starting should be done gently at 3. We think that makes life easier for the horse actually as you can do a little at 3ish (after the 3rd birthday) with plenty of time to go slowly, turn away, bring back at 4 to do a little more and then by 5 you have enough in place educationally speaking to start 'working' the horse physically more consistently. Sometimes the slow way is the quick way! But obviously if you want to be selling horses that are competing etc at 4 in order to make a profit then you need to work faster and do more at an early age. I know which I prefer.
 

ycbm

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I think this is really valid and has also been the basis on which we have started young horses. When I have had young horses (under 3) for purchase vetted (very rarely actually but a couple of times) the attending vet has advised that backing and starting should be done gently at 3. We think that makes life easier for the horse actually as you can do a little at 3ish (after the 3rd birthday) with plenty of time to go slowly, turn away, bring back at 4 to do a little more and then by 5 you have enough in place educationally speaking to start 'working' the horse physically more consistently. Sometimes the slow way is the quick way! But obviously if you want to be selling horses that are competing etc at 4 in order to make a profit then you need to work faster and do more at an early age. I know which I prefer.


I absolutely agree with all of this except the turning away. Turning away is only a routine thing to do in the UK. I think it started because people wanted to hunt their older horses in the winter or didn't want to ride the young horses in bad weather.
They do just fine if you keep doing light work through the winter.
 

palo1

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I absolutely agree with all of this except the turning away. Turning away is only a routine thing to do in the UK. I think it started because people wanted to hunt their older horses in the winter or didn't want to ride the young horses in bad weather.
They do just fine if you keep doing light work through the winter.

Yes, I have done both - turning away is sometimes for my convenience! I have also turned away the latest 2; my appaloosa/arab because he had done everything asked at 4 and was still quite weak; I wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt by seeing if he had more growing to do (both quite late developing breeds) which he did over that winter (which was also grim weather wise!!). After that we just kept going quietly 3 or 4 times a week for short periods until he was able to work harder and more regularly :)

My current 'baby' - now 4+ (rising 5) was handled, ground work done, long-reined etc and gently backed and hacked very quietly after her third birthday, turned away till Spring last year - again worked very quietly for 7 months - 3 or 4 times a week, no jumping till the last month of her work and then only tiddlers but now turned away partly because I don't want to clip or have to work her during the shortest days of the year; I haven't got time to do enough to make it worthwhile for either of us! Also, she too has done everything asked of her without a single issue so no point in boring her with repetition of things that I actually want to move on from. She enjoys new challenges and questions which we can start on in the Spring. :)

Her breeders were confident that she was strong enough to be backed and started by me in her 3rd year and they have a great deal more years of experience doing that than I so I was happy to take their advice!! The thing that makes the difference I believe is the judgement applied to the amount and type of 'work' that the horse is engaged in tbh and that is different in every scenario so there can't really be a blanket rule about 'no riding till 4 or 5' or 'always start ridden work at 3'. I think there is plenty of information about growth plates now but even back in the 'dark ages' people knew from experience that horses worked too hard too young would not make old bones...Science is helpful but horsemanship is the key.
 

fetlock

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Best pony I ever had we bought at the end of his 4 year old season, by which time he'd won £40 BSJA (in the days when 1st prize in a JF qualifier was usually £5) , qualified for the Junior Foxhunter Final and won a couple of hunter trials.
He was an absolute saint of a pony throughout the four happy years we had him and with his future owners too. Never sick or sorry, very hard to beat competitively in several spheres, always had a smile on his face and lived till the grand old age of 29.
Not something I'd want to do with a 3 or 4 year old, but it certainly didn't do my old boy any harm.
 

bubsqueaks

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Guess we shouldnt be so surprised by the amount of horses which are breaking down at such young ages - tbh dont think they should be ridden at all but thats another story - what with the non formed bones, constant circles in arenas, ill fitting saddles, - poor horses thats all I can say!
 

palo1

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Guess we shouldnt be so surprised by the amount of horses which are breaking down at such young ages - tbh dont think they should be ridden at all but thats another story - what with the non formed bones, constant circles in arenas, ill fitting saddles, - poor horses thats all I can say!

Well clearly horses aren't really designed for riding but if you are going to ride then care and the quality of horsemanship/judgement is what is going to best support them. I am not sure it is as simple as 'started young=broken down early' as there is such a huge variance in the amount and quality of work that a young horse might do or not do...as well as horses that are started at 5 or later.
 

ycbm

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I know of a horse who has recently been retired at 10 with various joint issues. It was jumping big fences as a 3 year old, within a few months of being backed (1m plus), regularly.


The problem is that I owned one who I backed myself at 4 who didn't jump a metre until he was 5, was never hammered jumping too high or too often, who was retired from jumping 1m 15 max (my own SJ limit) at 9 with bad hocks. There have been horses on the forum this year both younger and less worked which havebeen retired or PTS for joint issues.

We have no proper evidence at all about the affect of early work on longevity. The only piece of research I know at all about early work is that it makes young TBs bones stronger.

I would love some proper research.
 

stormox

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Guess we shouldnt be so surprised by the amount of horses which are breaking down at such young ages - tbh dont think they should be ridden at all but thats another story - what with the non formed bones, constant circles in arenas, ill fitting saddles, - poor horses thats all I can say!
Do you mean 3 yr olds shouldnt be ridden at all, or horses in general?
Would you also say children shouldnt start education and PE at 5 or 6?
 

paddi22

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Do you mean 3 yr olds shouldnt be ridden at all, or horses in general?
Would you also say children shouldnt start education and PE at 5 or 6?


it's a good point. but just for arguments sake, wouldn't the analogy mean that 4 or 5 year old kids would be carrying heavy backpacks? which I imagine wouldn't be good.

and education wise, wouldn't a young dressage horse in work have something more akin to a stressful intense 'job' with a lot of mental and physical pressure as opposed to just 'playing around' which is what most young kids are doing.
 

ihatework

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it's a good point. but just for arguments sake, wouldn't the analogy mean that 4 or 5 year old kids would be carrying heavy backpacks? which I imagine wouldn't be good.

and education wise, wouldn't a young dressage horse in work have something more akin to a stressful intense 'job' with a lot of mental and physical pressure as opposed to just 'playing around' which is what most young kids are doing.

I’d say 4 or 5 year olds should be carrying backpacks appropriate to their size, no reason not to. And it’s good for growing children to get exercise. So the argument really falls down to type and frequency of exercise and to make sure it’s beneficial.

In terms of academic stuff it’s all about short session keeping it simple and fun. Allowing that some brighter children benefit from being challenged a little more and a little earlier than others. Sounding familiar?
 

LEC

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Awful. And regardless of what people think yes it will effect the horse later in life. My lowe mileage 17 year old was diagnosed with navicular this summer. I have owned him since he was 5 and was devastated. Vet said a lot of it will have been to do with what he did as a young horse before I had him.... he is from Ireland and I was told he hunted a season as a 3 year old. Has put me off buying anything with any kind of ridden form in the future unless full history is known.

You just don't know that. You also don't know if what he did before 5 set him up to make it to 17 relatively unscathed. Feral horses (as no such thing as truly wild) dont get to their late teens. 20% of brumbies die each year mainly due to drought...... they don't get bone disease because they usually die before it becomes an issue.

The problem is that I owned one who I backed myself at 4 who didn't jump a metre until he was 5, was never hammered jumping too high or too often, who was retired from jumping 1m 15 max (my own SJ limit) at 9 with bad hocks. There have been horses on the forum this year both younger and less worked which havebeen retired or PTS for joint issues.

We have no proper evidence at all about the affect of early work on longevity. The only piece of research I know at all about early work is that it makes young TBs bones stronger.

I would love some proper research.

This is why I am excited about the Peder Frederickson experiment. All people keep talking about it work levels from 3. Yet so many horses i know are bought up incorrectly as well from foals. Not in herds with other young horses, doing rough and tumble. I hate it when people keep asking what they should do with their 2yo who is kept in a paddock with one companion who is usually elderly. Turn them away in a herd with other young horses.....
 

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My own youngster is 2.5yo right now, and built like a labrador puppy. He has huge limbs and surely will grow, as he's an oldschool, heavy built Warmblood. I am, of course, excited to teach him new stuff, however, he spends 99% of his time on rough terrain with an active herd, 1/3 of which are youngsters of his age. When our vet, who is also a professional chiro, last checked on us, she could not stress enough that, if I plan on keeping him for myself (which I do), I should not even sit on him before he's at least 4.5, but, even better if 5. I'm okay with that, I can wait. I got my first horse when he was 5 (backed at 3) - also a huge Warmblood type - and now, at age 15, problems are rapidly starting to show, although his workload has been healthy and he's been kept outside 24/7 since I bought him 10 years ago.
 

GinaGeo

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The most unsound horses I have met, that have not stood up to any real work at all, haven't been backed until they were five.

I'm not saying that it's because they were backed late, but I am saying that leaving them until they are five certainly doesn't guarantee a long and sound life. In my experience those that have been left are a bit soft, their bones, joints and tendons haven't adapted to working, because they've never needed to.

I've just had a nosey at the Peter Fredricson project with interest and it certainly does make an awful lot of sense.

I do a little ride and lead with my own young horses relatively early. It's not really work to them, just a bit of an adventure into the big wide world with their mate, but it's all straight lines and it starts conditioning their bodies to move over different terrain and to balance themselves without any weight on their backs. If I had 70 hectares for them to run over I probably wouldn't feel the need!

As an aside I've never really understood why we put so much merit into a fittening programme for our horses coming back after a holiday, but the youngsters who have never had the muscle to do the job, trot around in circles on the lunge and are ridden away pretty quickly - no thought given to strengthening their bones, soft tissue and muscles for the job. Surely how we back them is very important too. I'd take a three year old that had been bumbling about in straight lines, and doing a little suppling and gymnastic work with a lightweight rider before I'd take on a just backed five year old that hadn't left the arena.
 

sportsmansB

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If we do have any 3yo's in we only work them at the end of that year and tend to do a few weeks with them and then give them an easy few weeks and then back to work and then off again
We don't really completely turn them away for a full winter as such, but keep giving them short breaks for their minds and bodies to catch up
We don't jump them madly at all but would do pole work and little cross poles and logs in the field, plenty of hacking maybe 4 days a week. This on again off again will continue until they are in their 5yo year.
I think the campaigning at age classes (in both SJ and eventing) in a 4yo year is likely to be more challenging for them, it is relentless and a long season chasing qualifications and points. Thats one good thing to come out of 2020 in my opinion.
TBH anyone thinking that hunting 3yo's breaks them all would prob be surprised how many horses which go on to event at higher levels have had that as part of their education in Ireland. However I should point out that a lot of regular irish hunting of youngsters is mooching about over banks and drains, not flying at 6ft hedges.
 

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I can’t bear to read any more posts on here about behavioral issues in youngsters who they're keeping on normal livery yards and expecting to just behave like an adult horse. And all they say back is 'Well that's how our yard runs'. Don’t have a young horse if you cannot adequately provide what it needs
 

palo1

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Surely how we back them is very important too. I'd take a three year old that had been bumbling about in straight lines, and doing a little suppling and gymnastic work with a lightweight rider before I'd take on a just backed five year old that hadn't left the arena.

This is so relevant I think! Where a backing/starting rider is well within the capacity of the horse to carry then gentle hacking around after the third birthday seems much, much healthier in terms of strength and muscle development, appropriate 'stress' on the bones and tendons (if you understand what I mean) than backing and arena schooling as a primary activity at 4. Also, there is that wonderful period in a young horse's life where they are generally really interested in the world but not yet bold enough to want to take charge; allowing for really positive new experiences to be introduced in a very unpressured way. I think that the period between 3 and 4 is quite magical in that sense and it seems rather disadvantageous not to make the most of it where you hope to produce a riding horse.
 

ownedbyaconnie

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I'm a huuuuuge advocate of hacking for green/youngsters education. My mare came to me green but not a youngster (but had the muscle of one) and I went in the school once a week for my lesson and the rest of the time we hacked. Walking up and down hills, leg yielding across paths, learning inside bend round gentle corners on woodland paths and cantering in straight lines. Plus regular physio to keep muscles building and repairing as they should with minimal tightness.

Slow and steady works great for your average riding club level rider but I guess your battling a ticking time bomb if the horse is to compete at age classes.

Loving this thread though, I'd like to buy a lightly backed youngster direct from breeder once current pony starts to slow down and finding everyone's approaches/experience invaluable.
 

ihatework

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The concept of age classes interests me.

From an Eventing perspective, with a couple of notable exceptions I have in mind, I don’t know any established pros that take 4yos out to these classes that they actually have in mind to retain in the yard long term.

The ones they have earmarked for sale they might. Or ones that the owner is pushing for it. Up and coming riders or over ambitious amateurs might for their own exposure. It’s all those horses that have to be ‘prepped’ for it that isn’t necessarily in the horses best interests but is part of a wider industry.

But the good ones could easily do a 4yo class without being excessively prepped. But those are the ones you don’t see, being quietly educated at home ?

5yos are a little different, and with the basics fine tuned quietly over 12-18 months can quite conceivably come out very ready to go with not excessive work. It’s always a very fine balancing act working out how much or little to expose a naturally talented horse to.
 

stormox

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Have a look at the prices realised on the recent Go-for-Gold sale at Goresbridge. Top price £59,000 (yes 4 0s!) For a 4 year old already jumping 90/1m courses. And many prices nearly as high. Thats why people start jumping young. Oliver Townsend bought 2 I believe for a total of 52k.
 

LEC

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Have a look at the prices realised on the recent Go-for-Gold sale at Goresbridge. Top price £59,000 (yes 4 0s!) For a 4 year old already jumping 90/1m courses. And many prices nearly as high. Thats why people start jumping young. Oliver Townsend bought 2 I believe for a total of 52k.

That 4yo is nearly 5yo and 90cm/1m for an athletic horse is barely any effort. These horses are all professionally produced as well. Probably done surprisingly little.
 

stormox

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OK 4 1/2 year old, it is still 2020!! Also I dont think you can say its done surprisingly little!! To be jumping jump 1m well in the ring its probably regularly doing 1.10 at home. Most of the 3yr olds were jumping the wings on the lunge at 1.25, and a lot of the 4 yr olds were said to be jumping 1m - 1.10 at training shows. And does 'professionally produced' mean that they are able do more? Or does it mean they have been pushed during the time the professionals had them?
 

palo1

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OK 4 1/2 year old, it is still 2020!! Also I dont think you can say its done surprisingly little!! To be jumping jump 1m well in the ring its probably regularly doing 1.10 at home. Most of the 3yr olds were jumping the wings on the lunge at 1.25, and a lot of the 4 yr olds were said to be jumping 1m - 1.10 at training shows. And does 'professionally produced' mean that they are able do more? Or does it mean they have been pushed during the time the professionals had them?

There is no way of knowing exactly what has been done but professional riders and producers have, on the whole, more experience in the bag than amateurs so their judgement is possibly (not always) more informed and they may be able to judge better when to move on from one exercise to the next. This may maximise the learning and development with the minimum miles on the legs. Many amateurs rely on coaching/lessons and training but a professional producer, whilst they may have coaching for their own competing, might find it easier to keep the learning cycle moving on. I know how easy it is to get stuck in a rut or to not keep moving on with challenges as a 'fun' rider. I think what I am getting at is that the horses being produced are probably both more suited to that kind of learning and those producing them are possibly more 'effective'. There are certainly plenty of amateurs that can do this too but if you are making a living out of this kind of work then you definately need quite well honed skills and judgement. That is not to deny the fact that some horses will be pushed too far and too fast in order that money can be made but I don't think it is any professional's interest to knacker horses young; buyers just wouldn't keep coming back if 5 years down the line expensive horses regularly go wrong.
 

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My ex yard owner hunted her girl at three years old. Pony then lost balance and slipped into a river, and had to have a full on rescue. I wonder if she's ever recovered? So no, three years old is asking for trouble. Shy didn't fully mature until he was nine, I started jumping him at 5/6.
 

ihatework

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OK 4 1/2 year old, it is still 2020!! Also I dont think you can say its done surprisingly little!! To be jumping jump 1m well in the ring its probably regularly doing 1.10 at home. Most of the 3yr olds were jumping the wings on the lunge at 1.25, and a lot of the 4 yr olds were said to be jumping 1m - 1.10 at training shows. And does 'professionally produced' mean that they are able do more? Or does it mean they have been pushed during the time the professionals had them?

People who haven’t seen what goes on at home probably don’t quite understand how little you have to do (provided it’s done correctly) on a talented horse.

My 4yo who is fairly talented (but not top end), did a couple of brief lunge jumping (mostly popping from walk/trot) as a 3yo. Jumped 4 times in the spring of 4yo year under saddle. His feet didn’t leave the ground again until July, whereby he had a jump once a week for 4 weeks.

At the end of that he did an arena hire and jumped clear around 90cm, including treble and water trays (built up in stages), super confident.

The following week he went Xc schooling. In a 30-40 min session (including warm up and breaks) he went from a walk/slow jog and pop over the 1’6 baby fences, to confidently popping the 80cm BE standard fences and finished on jumping the 1m water complex combo. Literally like he had been doing it all his life.

He then went back in the field.
 
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