Justification

[celt]

What are you’re thoughts on the countless number of birds that are simply left to rot following a shoot day, if this is the case and it is, then I simply cant fathom the mentality of some of the people that peruse this so called ‘sport’.
If you wish to show off you’re marksmanship then why not go clay pigeon shooting. You could set up a number of clay traps that would test the very best of shots.

 

[severnmiles]

Shooting birds is a bit different Bendy, showing your lack of knowledge of country sports again. Heard of gun dogs? They bring the bird back to you, if still flapping, quick spin of the head and its dead.

Gun dogs don't retrieve injured foxes.

 

[severnmiles]

I don't know a lot about shooting, and I'm not really keen on it because I don't like most of the guys i know who do it and they seem to interfere with our hunting LOTS!

Thats unfair, do you know how many times the hunt have trashed pheasant pens and ruined shoots before, its give and take, the countryside is there for all country pursuits (no Bendy sabbing isn't classed a country pursuit! :smirk, remember shooting parties pay thousands per gun, we pay a few hundred in subs for 45 odd days hunting, we should all respect each other.

 

[severnmiles]

Not had time to read that essay but will do tomorrow morning!

 

[Ereiam_jh]

In my opinion Shooting foxes and leaving them wounded to suffer and die over weeks is crueler than killing them quickly with dogs. You seem to think that weeks or months of unbearable suffering are preferable to a quick death. That's for you.

Shoots have dogs to recover any wounded animals.

You can't hunt pheasants with dogs. If you could maybe it would be more welfare freindly.

 

[Ereiam_jh]

What you describe isn't the shoot I go on. There are many small local shoots that are not run inn the way you describe. We shoot maybe 70 birds in a day, there are not loads of birds left. All the birds are eaten. They are reared from chicks in large outdoor pens.

You take the worst aspects of industrialised shoots and use them to argue against all shooting. That's highy disengenuous.

Have you any studies to show that shoots don't contribute to conservation or are you just stating your opinion that it is a myth?

An independant study showed shoots contribute £250 million of conservation work to the british countryside. That's 5* that of the RSPB.

 

[GinaB]

I'd love to know which shoot you went to also.

Also, tell me this local farmer you support? Have you ever been to his farm to find out how well his animals are looked after etc?

 

[endymion]

I wasnt referring to you but thanks for your reply anyways!

I agree that game birds have a better life than many farmed birds but thats not really saying much because factory farms are hell on earth!

I'm veggie, not vegan, but working on it.

 

[endymion]

You make it sound so simple! Thats not always the way it happens though is it, with the sheer volume of birds shot in some areas it would be impossible to retrieve every wounded bird. What if a bird is wounded but can still fly?

One of my main problems with shooting for sport is the number of inexperienced people taking part. People who shoot foxes tend to be rural folk with a background in shooting but there are sh*tloads of people who go shooting birds just for a day out, I know because tonnes of Londoners go.

....and dogs can be used the same way when shooting foxes - to track the wounded ones who get away.

 

[moocow]

Celt, you say you know exactly where your meat that you eat comes from cos you know the farm etc. Have you actually seen it being killed? I know its a silly question cos but unless you have actually been in the killing hall of a abbitoir, please don't comment on how cruel or not the slaughter of farmed animals is.

Someone made a comment there about the turkeys on the F word, they had the most pleasent death - I can assure you, that is NOT the way most animals are slaughtered.

you go into the killing hall of a big processing plant - and please note that "organic" animals are slaughtered in these processing halls as well and you will see slights that will make you wish you could take a gun and individually shoot the animals. Animals are held in lairage, within the factory before death - animals are slaughtered within sight of each other, the smell of blood and death from these places is horrendous. Animals are hooked onto the production lines sometimes not fully stunned and are bleed out and then skinned. they are terified - they know they are going to be killed - some try and make a break for it.

until you hvae seen first hand how your organic steer becomes your organic steak - please do not comment on the inhumanity of a shoot.

Organic food "For animals, it means they were reared without the routine use of antibiotics and without the use of growth hormones. Also, at all levels, organic food is produced without the use of genetically modified organisms." as per wikipedia. It does not mean they have a better life, in some circumstances they have a worse life since if they get infections, they are not treated with antibiotics!

think about that the next time you pat yourself on teh back for choosing organic restaurants.

 

[Ereiam_jh]

"....and dogs can be used the same way when shooting foxes - to track the wounded ones who get away. "

They can indeed be used to track, chase and kill ones that get away which is a more merciful end than letting them die of their wounds as I'm sure you agree.

Unfortunately a lot of foxes are shot without dogs present to hunt them down afterwards which is a shame.

 

[severnmiles]

Inexperienced people start on clays!

Haha, sheer volume, depends on the shoot, some of these blokes couldn't shoot a pheasant when it was crossing them.

I'm ot sure if you watched that cheesy programme with Jerry Hall but most of those men hadn't shot and when on clays most managed to hit the target first time.

 

[Ereiam_jh]

I'm a crap shot. I regard myself as the 'pheasant's friend' as I normall miss completely.

I'm getting better though and managed a woodcock the other day.

Delicious.

 

[severnmiles]

I'm getting better though and managed a woodcock the other day.

Delicious.

Well done, you can't be that bad then! OH shone a lamp on one the other night and caught it with his bare hands, he did let it go though!

 

[endymion]

I'm sorry but they don't always. You may have a responsible shoot where you live but I know a few young urban prof's who have gone out to shoot live quarry in Essex and from what I've heard many other Londoners do it too. It's mainly the rich types who think it puts them among the elite. Where there's money there's always someone willing to put animal welfare aside for a few quid.

Missed the J Hall prog but do remember hearing her on an interview once saying that she lost her virginity to a horse....

 

[endymion]

OMG! I think we actually agree on something....better keep this to ourselves, I dont want to dent my rep, haha

 

[Ereiam_jh]

"I'm sorry but they don't always."

Absolutely endy we agree again. However just because something CAN be cruel isn't a reason to ban it completely. It's a reason to try and ensure it is done properly.

 

[Ereiam_jh]

"OMG! I think we actually agree on something"

On what, that hunting wild mammals with dogs can be good for animal welfare, because taking out sick and injured animals releives suffering?

 

[severnmiles]

. Where there's money there's always someone willing to put animal welfare aside for a few quid.

Quite right, look at Barronsdown :shocked: :smirk:

Seriously though, I'm afraid there are tw*ts in all areas of life, its a shame really, perhaps they should stick to their fast cars and briefcases!

 

[severnmiles]

"OMG! I think we actually agree on something"

On what, that hunting wild mammals with dogs can be good for animal welfare, because taking out sick and injured animals releives suffering?

Which leads us (or rather you) to maybe thinking that Foxhunting was humane...afterall!

 

[endymion]

Have I talked about banning shooting? I dont agree with it but dont think its realistic to ban it at this point in time.

However, I Do think it's cruel on many levels.

1. It's ethically wrong to breed animals to be shot for sport.
2. As others have stated many birds are left wounded and in agony.
3. It interferes with the natural ecosystem. The huge influx of game birds provides a food source over and above that which would be available to predators naturally. This results in predation of the birds by foxes who are supposed to be a pest species and will increase fox numbers. It also results in increased predation by birds of prey. Many birds of prey are endangered so this would be a good thing if not for the fact gamekeepers take it upon themselves to kill many of our rarest species for this reason alone. For further info check out the RSPB who are forever having to spend vital donations on prosecutions.

However just because something CAN be cruel isn't a reason to ban it completely. It's a reason to try and ensure it is done properly.

Perhaps so but the reality is that the situation is unlikely to change. Rich landowners who organise shoots for the rich are just as unlikely to listen to you as they are to me.

 

[endymion]

Unfortunately a lot of foxes are shot without dogs present to hunt them down afterwards which is a shame.

THIS is what I agree with you on, that foxes should be shot with the presence of dogs and NOT that hunting with hounds is humane.

 

[Ereiam_jh]

In the presence of dogs so that if the fox is only wounded the dogs can then hunt it?

 

[Ereiam_jh]

"that the situation is unlikely to change"

There are many different ways of changing things ranging from outright bans to regulation, liscensing, self regulation, consumer pressure, persuassion, direct action etc. etc.

 

[endymion]

The dogs can then track it where it can then be shot.

 

[endymion]

What would you suggest in this case?

 

[Ereiam_jh]

"The dogs can then track it where it can then be shot."

maybe, that depends where they find it. Often it'll be in deep undergrowth where it's best killed by the dogs.

The fact is that being killed quickly by a much larger dog is better than a slow lkingering death.

 

[severnmiles]

"The dogs can then track it where it can then be shot."

maybe, that depends where they find it. Often it'll be in deep undergrowth where it's best killed by the dogs.

The fact is that being killed quickly by a much larger dog is better than a slow lkingering death.

What if it went to ground? It was you Endy that disagreed with terrierwork wasn't it?

 

[Ereiam_jh]

Given that shooting's popularity is rising so rapidly, I would suggest that animal welfare people try to engage with shooting interests rather than demonising them. Rather than just picking the worst aspects of the shooting industry and making out it is all like that I think they should pick the best aspects and try to encourage them.

Once you start moralising at people and calling them cruel and bloodthirsty then you just turn them off.

Above all, I'd like to see people like LACS start listening.

 

[GinaB]

Do LACS ever listen?