Kauto doing dressage

[Marydoll]

And why will going round in circles forced into an outline and never getting to gallop again be a happier future?

I really do hope youre trying a wind up.
Of course he'll be allowed to gallop, and theres more to dressage than going round in circles, if you seriously think you get a horse into an outline by force then that mabe explains your posts.

 

[Miss L Toe]

Why don't some of you put the same amount of effort into campaigning for the care and welfare of the huge amount of not so famous racehorses, many of which find themselves in dire need of a good home.

These horses would love to find themselves in the hands of a master horseman such as Yogi Bresnier.

Kauto Star will want for nothing and be given every opportunity to have a long, happy, useful and un-stressed life. The clown who commented about the horse doing endless circles because he is a 'dressage' horse, obviously has no idea what being reschooled actually means.

I really hope he enjoys his new life, perhaps we will see him at Hoy's, displaying perfect flat work in the Racehorse to Riding horse championship.

He is a legend, will remain a legend in the minds of all of us lucky enough to have been around to see him and the legend has been very fortunate to be owned by someone who is willing and caring enough to ensure the horse a safe future.

A future that does not entail leading the string galloping up a hill day after day followed by a spell on the walker and 22 hours in the stable. That is the perfectly acceptable lifestyle of a racehorse, he is not a racehorse anymore and deserves to spend the rest of his life in a more natural routine.

For those of us old enough to remember.....Hallo Dandy didn't have such a good deal, and there will be plenty of old racehorses in fields right now, minus 3 degrees and no grub, wishing they belonged to Mr Smith.

You are correct, and incorrect:
There are plenty of ex racing TB s who could be re trained, they sell for £500 or less, and some may do well.
Of all the horses I rode in racing [1000 +/-], I rode only one which could have competed at dressage [it was not a good jumper btw], I also rode Viking Flagship occasionally, who was comparable to Kauto Star.......... he enjoyed his retirement as trainers hack, perfectly happy, stayed in the number one box, and did his job on a day to day basis, leading youngsters, hacking out newbies, popping fences, pinging hurdles, pefectly happy.
I have worked in some good NH racing stables, and most horses like being there, obviously some don't.
But they are allowed to walk out naturally on a long rein, not kept "on the bit" and asked to do "movements", OK, when in work, they have to do a bit of hard work every so often, but really, it is an ideal life if they are in the right stable.
In a competative dressage yard he will never go out to grass, probably never allowed to walk naturally.
In NH racing, he has 3-5 months in summer on grass., and is stabled when it is cold and wet, hacked out in comapny, not asked to submit all the time, and no annoyingperson on top concerned to make him look "collected"

 

[TelH]

Kauto has been put on a pedestal by so many because of what he achieved. He is arguably the greatest national hunt horse of our time but he doesn't know that. He's just a horse, in his own mind he's probably no different than something that trails in last in a bin end race in the back of beyond. Sure, it would have been a nice happy ending if he stayed at Ditcheat but it wasn't to be. Plenty of horses move on when their days at the top are over, not just in racing, in all equestrian sports. Most of them adapt well and there's no reason why, given time, Kauto won't adapt to his new life too. As long as Kauto is healthy, happy and well cared for that's all that really matters.

 

[Kat]

In a competative dressage yard he will never go out to grass, at least in NH racing, he has 3-5 months in summer on grass.

Firstly he isn't going to a competitive dressage yard, he's going to an eventing yard. Secondly dressage horses do go out, Carl Hester's horses all have regular turnout, not just holidays during the off season. Thirdly, we don't know what the long term plan is whether it is to have him competing in dressage, eventing, showing or doing something else alltogether, he is with Laura Collett for re-training.

But I doubt very much that a bit of dressage training with people like Yogi and Laura will do him any harm, if anything it will help him lead a useful, sound life away from racing as he will learn to use the muscles that support a rider and to work correctly and in balance.

 

[bonny]

Firstly he isn't going to a competitive dressage yard, he's going to an eventing yard. Secondly dressage horses do go out, Carl Hester's horses all have regular turnout, not just holidays during the off season. Thirdly, we don't know what the long term plan is whether it is to have him competing in dressage, eventing, showing or doing something else alltogether, he is with Laura Collett for re-training.

But I doubt very much that a bit of dressage training with people like Yogi and Laura will do him any harm, if anything it will help him lead a useful, sound life away from racing as he will learn to use the muscles that support a rider and to work correctly and in balance.

Some people on here don't half say some weird things about racehorses ! Do you not imagine he's been using the muscles that support a rider up till now ? Or working correctly and in balance ! Amazing that he's achieved so much without ever being trained properly .....

 

[Miss L Toe]

He's already shown what he's capable of and adding some low key dressage events into the mix will not enhance anything about him. Plus there are already alot of exracehorses out there competing in all disciplines, look at the number of threads about them on here alone.
I think the fact that he did so well where he was shows us that he was happy and well cared for there, they are the team who know him, who wanted to keep him and they should of been allowed to do just that.....

You strike the right note..... almost, yes he can do dressage, yes he can be an eventer [omg lets hope not], PTP. dangerous, full of amateur riders.
I don't know how Kauto is as a horse, but I remember we had to put one of ours down , simply because the alternative was sending him to to the sales, he had been unraced but kept in the yard for about two years due to fragile legs he was a pro ride, and there are a few....... the owner was a businessman......... he would have sent him to the sales.......... enuff said...........
PS my boy can do low key dessage, but he will never go further, he hates flatwork, is not "submissive"

 

[Miss L Toe]

I'll be amazed if he stays with LC I expect in time to hear that like Denham he's in a very special private home.

Exactly......., unfortunately for the horse, it is not likely he will ever return to his real home: Ditcheat.
PS I am not number one fan of PN, he runs a business, and advises his owners from this point of view, but he is experienced and there is no suggestion of over taxing horses , he knows what is best, the owner does not, or so it seems.
Owners and punters have no idea how many mini crises occur day to day, they are not informed of these peaks and troughs, as far as they are concerned, they turn up, the horse races , end of. Otherwise they would find minimal pleasure, only stress.The trainer absorbs the stress, he is the front man, backed by his staff and vets and physio and so on... those who are dealing with the horse day to day.

 

[Kat]

Some people on here don't half say some weird things about racehorses ! Do you not imagine he's been using the muscles that support a rider up till now ? Or working correctly and in balance ! Amazing that he's achieved so much without ever being trained properly .....

and some people say weird things about dressage horses too!

I suppose I should have said learn how to use the muscles and work in balance for a different type of work.

I personally doubt that he is intended for a "dressage career" I suspect that the retraining is intended to get him working in such a way that he can do another job, possibly going out and doing RoR and personal appearances etc.

 

[Bright_Spark]

Good luck to KS and LC for the future.

I do find it rather amusing that some poster on here think a horse is going to find doing a walk & trot test "cringeworthy" and "humiliating". Sure, because that's what horses really think about...

 

[Miss L Toe]

I havnt heard that, I know his staff have been there for years and years which speaks volumes. I know he is a perfectionist but that is why he is so succesful. Ive heard various things over the years in regard to CS and its well documented in PNs book about how CS came to him after falling out with Martin Pipe.

I hope that after KS career is over and he retires properly he can go back to Ditcheat if both parties agree.

No one with any understanding of horses would have sent a horse to Martin Pipe, his methods were...... extra-ordinary, win at any cost ..............read PN's book and you will see the difference.

 

[Miss L Toe]

Ask Carl Hester about that . . . his horses hack out, have regular turnout, have a varied schooling routine. Some top eventers hunt even while competing. How many top racehorses have a similar routine?

There are three BE and two BD horses on my yard . . . they go out in the field every day for a good six/seven hours, they hack regularly, school, go round the gallops, box up and go to clinics and compete. Doesn't sound like the life of a top racehorse to me.

As far as I know CS hasn't said he's aiming KS at Rio 2016 . . . nor Badminton, the World Dressage Championships, etc. He's merely gone to LC's yard to see if he has an aptitude for dressage. If he manages to do well at some unaffiliated competitions, that will be an achievement and do his brain and body the world of good for learning a new set of skills.

P

Some racehorses go hunting to freshen them up. The main aim is to win races, and if that means training them out of a field then that will be done, if it means going to pony club, then so be it. If they need to be hacked they will be hacked, if they need to pop logs, then so be it, if they like hacking out, they get hacked, please do not assume all racehorses are treated the same.
Most yards I have been in have Sunday as day of rest for those in work, that means they get put on walker or turned out in a paddock, only those racing on Monday get a proper 60- 90 mins of excercise. The day after they "work" they get to hack out round fields and so on. I have never ever worked in a yard which does the same thing every day.
If PN thought he would be better in a dressage yard, he would have suggested it. If the owner went to a top eventer, would she say...... "no I don't want him............. " "[PS do you pay cash?]"
THe horseis middle aged in human terms , it is too late for him to start gymnastics.

 

[bonny]

Good luck to KS and LC for the future.

I do find it rather amusing that some poster on here think a horse is going to find doing a walk & trot test "cringeworthy" and "humiliating". Sure, because that's what horses really think about...

Non of this is about what the horse thinks about....we have no way of knowing that !

 

[Caol Ila]

I hope that everyone whinging about poor Kauto and his terrible fate as a dressage horse is heavily involved in rehoming all the "nobody" ex-racehorses who are in desperate need of good homes and facing the distinct possibility of going to the meat man.

 

[Miss L Toe]

Non of this is about what the horse thinks about....we have no way of knowing that !

The whole point of these posts is that PN and his professional, very experienced staff have enough knowledge of the horse to know what he would like to do, and where he would like to be.
If CS had had any sense he would have negotiated with PN to have a trial at another yard, and to return him if things did not work out.
Unfortunately this looks like the beginning of the end of the PN/CS partnership. It happens time and time again. Owners start off with $$$ and a dream, ,,,,,,,,,,, if it does not work out they move elsewhere, if it does, they lose sight of all the work and advice and assistance they have had..... and well you see what has happened......... There are numerous examples.
It is no wonder some trainers just get fed up with giving advice which is ignored, and PN is a pretty volatile person anyway.

 

[bonny]

I hope that everyone whinging about poor Kauto and his terrible fate as a dressage horse is heavily involved in rehoming all the "nobody" ex-racehorses who are in desperate need of good homes and facing the distinct possibility of going to the meat man.

I think you are missing the point ....

 

[Caol Ila]

As someone who couldn't care less about racing, I rather think I have a fairly objective view. He's a horse. As long as he's well treated and has food, water, and shelter, he'll be fine. And who knows? He may take to his new career. Many ex-racers do.

 

[Miss L Toe]

I really do hope youre trying a wind up.
Of course he'll be allowed to gallop, and theres more to dressage than going round in circles, if you seriously think you get a horse into an outline by force then that mabe explains your posts.

I have had leisure horses for five years, and in all that time they have never had more than a few furlongs at a decent pace, there are few safe places to gallop and few horses who are fit enough, what most people call a gallop is what racing people call a good canter.
Working in an outline?............. look at all the horses who are automatically put in a flash noseband .... 95% of them. If too "forward going" they "need" a gag, if not forward going they need spurs.
Dressage horses? they have to be bandaged to support limbs. What is that all about?

It is experience: there was a nice PTP horse at our DIY yard "trained" by a guy who had worked in a flat yard for a few weeks, this poor mare had six weeks at grass to fatten her up, and then six weeks later was getting an hour round the fields, six weeks later she was in a ptp, six weeks later she was shot.
Nothing wrong with her initially, just ignorance and greed. He was warned by someone who had been in racing that she "has a leg", but no,,,,,,, he bashed on and she "broke down" in her next outing.

 

[be positive]

Some racehorses go hunting to freshen them up. The main aim is to win races, and if that means training them out of a field then that will be done, if it means going to pony club, then so be it. If they need to be hacked they will be hacked, if they need to pop logs, then so be it, if they like hacking out, they get hacked, please do not assume all racehorses are treated the same.
Most yards I have been in have Sunday as day of rest for those in work, that means they get put on walker or turned out in a paddock, only those racing on Monday get a proper 60- 90 mins of excercise. The day after they "work" they get to hack out round fields and so on. I have never ever worked in a yard which does the same thing every day.
If PN thought he would be better in a dressage yard, he would have suggested it. If the owner went to a top eventer, would she say...... "no I don't want him............. " "[PS do you pay cash?]"
THe horseis middle aged in human terms , it is too late for him to start gymnastics.

If you knew PN's yard you would know there is very little variety in their work, hacking round fields is a very rare occurrence, most horses go up the gallops 3 times each day, walk on the roads to the bottom, go up, walk on the road to the bottom go back up, they do have another gallop a flat one for sharper work but the majority of the exercise is exactly the same every day. Walker each afternoon, no turn out, except in exceptional circumstances and obviously in the summer break.
Not all yards have so little variation, none are as successful in recent times but for people to state that KS would be better staying there is not allowing the horse to have a varied life and I think he deserves to have a chance to have that variety, if it does not suit him I am sure CS will find somewhere else for him.

 

[Caledonia]

He is muscled to be a racehorse, not a dressage horse. His core muscles and his extensors and flexors have all been established in racing work. To change that round in the short space of time that he is being given with LC to cope with dressage movement even at a low level will involve forceful riding to an extent. He should have been totally let down, and then gently rebuilt.

He's not going to be her eventer, so she's probably going to get fed up riding him. He dropped Clifford last week - poor horse being wheeled round an indoor school first thing this morning before he's even had a day or so to settle in.

So no, I'm not on a wind up, he won't get to gallop, they'd be mad to do that if this is a genuine attempt to give him a dressage career.

ETA - now whether or not you were deliberately missing the point, I don't know, but since when did spiralling in circles in an arena become more appealing to a racehorse than continuing to do what he finds easy and loves? :-?

 

[Scarlett]

THe horseis middle aged in human terms , it is too late for him to start gymnastics.

I have to disagree. KS has not been stood in a field for his 12 years doing nothing, he's an athlete, he is fit and muscled, yes he has been using different muscles and moving a different way but he is used to being fit and working. As long as his transition from racehorse to riding horse is done sympathetically and with his long term health in mind then there is no reason why he cannot go do gymnastics. He needs retrained, not started from scratch.

I have a collection of exracers, inc one we bought aged 11 from the trainers yard. He's a ex-jumper with a reputation for being hot, dumping folk and continuing off the end of the gallops in his younger days. He's been a pleasure to reschool, has hunted with me, sj'd with my novice OH and could do a decent dressage test if we were that way inclined and had aimed him at it.

Older exracers achieve different things in their new careers on a daily basis, this forum often documents it and I'm sure that there are many others out there that have stories to tell. Theres no reason why KS, given the team he has around him, cannot go on to be one of those success stories. He is just a horse after all, he has no preconcieved ideas about what his life should be.

I did wonder, from the mention of dressage, if maybe there was a thought that he wouldnt stand up to too much more galloping and jumping? Maybe there is something underlying that none of us are privvy too.

Also, there is a difference between a dressage yard and an event yard. From what I have heard LC's horses get turn out, go hacking, go hunting, have wonderful facilities, a superb back up team of trainers, physios, vets etc, and a varied workload. To think that he will spend hours being drilled around a dressage arena with his head cranked in and 23hrs in his stable is inaccurate. He'll live a life that many of us would love to give our horses, and one, IMO, preferable to staying on a racing yard.

 

[teapot]

Kempton has tweeted to say KS will be there on Boxing Day

 

[Fantasy_World]

I hope that everyone whinging about poor Kauto and his terrible fate as a dressage horse is heavily involved in rehoming all the "nobody" ex-racehorses who are in desperate need of good homes and facing the distinct possibility of going to the meat man.

Oh yes indeed my mare probably would not have gone to the meat man but the last stud she was at offered to put her down as she had become barren.
I had her reschooled and she is now a hack. She enjoys life with her equine buddies and going out on hacks.
She has been to two shows in veteran and racehorse classes, finishing placed both times.
She has also done an endurance ride which she loved.
Value wise she would probably fit into the £500 bracket.
She won on the flat and over hurdles.
I was offered her for free by the owners who were friends.
Nearly 4 years on and I would not have it any other way. If she ends up one day being unrideable but sound then she will live out her days with me in retirement.
Otherwise if she is in un-manageable pain she will be put to sleep for ethical reasons.
If I had the money I would quite happily take on more and give more ex racers or those that did not make the grade a second chance in life.
No one wants to see healthy horses going to the meat man but it is inevitable in this climate when people still continue to over breed horses for any discipline!

I support several centres that are involved with the rehab and retraining of racehorses, as well as several well known horse welfare centres.

My main concern with the Kauto Star issue is due to his age and translating to dressage.
I also feel strongly that the Ditcheat team were not consulted properly about the horse's future especially when they as his carers for the last 8 years or so have been solely responsible for his welfare and training. Smith just paid the bills, like every owner does.

There are plenty of ex racehorse to riding horse stories in the press and charities such as Greatwood that rehab them have publicity through racing, Greatwood hurdle at Cheltenham in November is one such venture.

Check out the TRC and see what they do with ex racers too.

There are also others which do sterling work with these horses.

If Smith had just wanted Kauto to have a worthwhile 'job' after racing he could have either left him at Ditcheat or else found a less well known trainer/rider.
The fact that he has chosen two very high profile people involved in racehorses and dressage/eventing tells me that he is seeking further stardom for the horse.
The horse could have received the best of care at Ditcheat or any other good livery yard that was recommended.
By sending the horse to who he has does not show that he wants the best for his horse but that he wants his horse to excel in that chosen sphere too.
He is seeking yet more glorification at the expense of his horse.
The world of dressage and the re-training of racehorses does not need Kauto Star.
This year's olympics has done far more to raise the profile of dressage in the UK and worldwide than anyone could have imagined.
I fear that the egotist which is Mr Smith has made the wrong decision......


As for Hales and Neptune Collonges, he has gone to his daughter Lisa to do dressage then showjumping.
To me John Hales is far more sympathetic owner than Smith will ever be.
Did he choose some high profile trainer for the winner of the Grand National?
No he chose to keep the horse well and truly in the family.
I will never forget the tears he shed for the ill-fated One Man.

Neptune Collonges going on to do dressage and showjumping with his owners = pride and love.
Kauto Star going on to do dressage and possibly eventing with a high class trainer/rider = greed and self gratification.

 

[Scarlett]

For those of you who object so strongly to Kauto going onto a new yard/life/career can I ask a question? What is it that makes KS so different from your average exracer being trained to another career? Why support horses being retrained but object to this particular one? Is it just how it happened? If he had been taken on by someone else would it have been better?

 

[bonny]

For those of you who object so strongly to Kauto going onto a new yard/life/career can I ask a question? What is it that makes KS so different from your average exracer being trained to another career? Why support horses being retrained but object to this particular one? Is it just how it happened? If he had been taken on by someone else would it have been better?

He's hardly an average exracer ! He was the best, for years and there is no need, none at all that he needs to go and try and be a dressage horse.....Everything about it is wrong, the idea and the way it has been handled. Paul Nicholls wanted to keep him and should have had his way. I don't think he should have ever gone anywhere else or to anywhere else. Like it or not high profile horses become that becuase they are supported and watched by so many and to an extent we become involved with them too....I think Clive Smith should have taken that into account instead of seemingly thinking only of himself.

 

[Marydoll]

I have had leisure horses for five years, and in all that time they have never had more than a few furlongs at a decent pace, there are few safe places to gallop and few horses who are fit enough, what most people call a gallop is what racing people call a good canter.
Working in an outline?............. look at all the horses who are automatically put in a flash noseband .... 95% of them. If too "forward going" they "need" a gag, if not forward going they need spurs.
Dressage horses? they have to be bandaged to support limbs. What is that all about?

It is experience: there was a nice PTP horse at our DIY yard "trained" by a guy who had worked in a flat yard for a few weeks, this poor mare had six weeks at grass to fatten her up, and then six weeks later was getting an hour round the fields, six weeks later she was in a ptp, six weeks later she was shot.
Nothing wrong with her initially, just ignorance and greed. He was warned by someone who had been in racing that she "has a leg", but no,,,,,,, he bashed on and she "broke down" in her next outing.

This horse isnt going to some complete novice who doesnt know what theyre doing, im sure LC is more tha capable of giving him a good pipe opener and im pretty sure the team who care for her horses know how to care for equine athletes

 

[dunkley]

KS is a horse, a racehorse, a bloody good racehorse who became a legend.

Perhaps his owner decided, as is his right, and as he can obviously afford it, to send his horse to those he believed would offer KS the best opportunity to be happy and successful post racing? By 'successful' I don't mean in terms of prize money or glory, simply a healthy, useful, busy and interesting retirement. As for 'retirement' - he retired from racing, not life.
I know nothing of any of the personalities involved, who is 'awkward', who is 'selfish, whatever. But, any Open Days at PN's yard won't have a fraction of the visitors descending without the (prize) draw of the legendary KS. I should think most visitors to West Lockinge didn't go to see the yard, but to see the other NH legend that was Best Mate.

 

[cptrayes]

I have had leisure horses for five years, and in all that time they have never had more than a few furlongs at a decent pace

Mine have flat out gallops in their own field for ten minutes at a time some days. Two of them gallop for up to a couple of miles when drag hunting. One never gallops ridden, he is spectacularly uninterested in doing so.

Just because you have never bothered to find a way to get your horses a good gallop, please do not assume that none of the rest of us do, or that Kauto Star won't.

 

[justabob]

He's hardly an average exracer ! He was the best, for years and there is no need, none at all that he needs to go and try and be a dressage horse.....Everything about it is wrong, the idea and the way it has been handled. Paul Nicholls wanted to keep him and should have had his way. I don't think he should have ever gone anywhere else or to anywhere else. Like it or not high profile horses become that becuase they are supported and watched by so many and to an extent we become involved with them too....I think Clive Smith should have taken that into account instead of seemingly thinking only of himself.

So bonny, when PN DOESNOT get his way, he tells the owner to take him away now, today. As for Clive Smith only thinking of himself, IMO he is thinking of HIS horse. I dont really think he is going to LC to be made into a dressage horse at all. I think he is going there to be re schooled to do another job. Your post comes across as petulant as Paul Nicholls behaviour in this whole badly managed saga. He is after all Clive Smiths horse, he does not belong to the nation or for that matter Paul Nicholls.

 

[paddi22]

I have had leisure horses for five years, and in all that time they have never had more than a few furlongs at a decent pace, there are few safe places to gallop and few horses who are fit enough, what most people call a gallop is what racing people call a good canter.

so because you can't get a good place to stretch their legs, that means nobody else can obviously?

I plan to event my ISH and he gets out for a good proper gallop regularly, he absolutely loves it. My exracer was down as a dressage horse and he still got a full proper gallop. I (and a lot of people i know) have no hesitation to box down and hire a proper gallops to give them a good run. I think it does them the world of good and would not leave it out of a training schedule.

Just because you don't or can't, don't label everyone else.

And maybe most people DO know what a proper gallop is - you must hang out with a softer crowd, the irish hunter crowd around me can do a fair gallop when they like.

 

[PolarSkye]

KS is a horse, a racehorse, a bloody good racehorse who became a legend.

Perhaps his owner decided, as is his right, and as he can obviously afford it, to send his horse to those he believed would offer KS the best opportunity to be happy and successful post racing? By 'successful' I don't mean in terms of prize money or glory, simply a healthy, useful, busy and interesting retirement. As for 'retirement' - he retired from racing, not life.
I know nothing of any of the personalities involved, who is 'awkward', who is 'selfish, whatever. But, any Open Days at PN's yard won't have a fraction of the visitors descending without the (prize) draw of the legendary KS. I should think most visitors to West Lockinge didn't go to see the yard, but to see the other NH legend that was Best Mate.

This!

P