Kauto doing dressage

I think the difference on this thread is between some who see Kauto as a horse, an exracehorse at that and think going to do dressage is a good idea for a middle aged horse, and those that follow racing and see him as an icon, a legend. Following him over his career he became almost public property, you become involved and moved by his exploits and by the fact that he was the best we ever saw. I for one hate the thought of him doing dressage, and last night overever irrational it sounds to some, upset at the thought of him leaving his home. I think he should of been given to Paul Nichols and stayed there for the rest of his life. No one should be trying to make him just an ordinary exracehorse.
 
It's very regrettable that, because of Paul Nicholl's hasty "grand gesture" in ringing Clive Smith and having Kauto removed from the yard as speedily as he did, he will, in all likelihood, deprive this wonder horse's fans from seeing him at Kempton on Boxing Day.

I just can't see that happening now.
 
Why don't some of you put the same amount of effort into campaigning for the care and welfare of the huge amount of not so famous racehorses, many of which find themselves in dire need of a good home.

These horses would love to find themselves in the hands of a master horseman such as Yogi Bresnier.

Kauto Star will want for nothing and be given every opportunity to have a long, happy, useful and un-stressed life. The clown who commented about the horse doing endless circles because he is a 'dressage' horse, obviously has no idea what being reschooled actually means.

I really hope he enjoys his new life, perhaps we will see him at Hoy's, displaying perfect flat work in the Racehorse to Riding horse championship.

He is a legend, will remain a legend in the minds of all of us lucky enough to have been around to see him and the legend has been very fortunate to be owned by someone who is willing and caring enough to ensure the horse a safe future.

A future that does not entail leading the string galloping up a hill day after day followed by a spell on the walker and 22 hours in the stable. That is the perfectly acceptable lifestyle of a racehorse, he is not a racehorse anymore and deserves to spend the rest of his life in a more natural routine.

For those of us old enough to remember.....Hallo Dandy didn't have such a good deal, and there will be plenty of old racehorses in fields right now, minus 3 degrees and no grub, wishing they belonged to Mr Smith.
 
Totally agree Alice. I am completely baffled by the hysteria this change of stable and career has generated.

Personally (apart from probably not seeing him at Kempton) I think it's an excellent outcome.
 
bonny said:
I think the difference on this thread is between some who see Kauto as a horse, an exracehorse at that and think going to do dressage is a good idea for a middle aged horse, and those that follow racing and see him as an icon, a legend. Following him over his career he became almost public property, you become involved and moved by his exploits and by the fact that he was the best we ever saw. I for one hate the thought of him doing dressage, and last night overever irrational it sounds to some, upset at the thought of him leaving his home. I think he should of been given to Paul Nichols and stayed there for the rest of his life. No one should be trying to make him just an ordinary exracehorse.
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Agree!
Also to note the person that was in discussion about his future was his owner Clive Smith who I doubt has had the closeness to the horse that the staff at Ditcheat had.
Sorry but going to the races, maybe see him popping a few fences at home, or a few gallops up the gallops is not enough for him to make an informed decision.
Whilst I respect Yogi Breisner and indeed Laura Collett, I happen to respect Paul Nicholls and Brian Clifford more.
No body knows Kauto better than these two, except perhaps for his groom who would have had a good idea of his general attitude to life.
Kauto Star is not just some ex racer he is a superstar!
Could you imagine what the late Ginger McCain would have told people if it was suggested that the legendary Red Rum was being shipped off to do dressage?
Or even Desert Orchid, what would his trainer have made of the news?
Kauto is up there, with them. He is held in a similarly high regard as afforded to a National Hunt horse with such talent.
He deserved an easier life.
One that revolved around his home DITCHEAT!
He would not have led a boring life there.
Did Red Rum or Dessie look bored to tears doing parades and racecourse gallops?
Of course not.
There were so many options available to Kauto Star.
So why was this one chosen?
The owner appears to know what is best for the horse.
Why was he up at all hours mucking out, feeding and grooming.
Did he carefully ride Kauto up the gallops and over the schooling jumps.
No of course not.
He paid the bills but had been rewarded ten fold with the horse of a lifetime.
Not just in prize money and trophies but also it helped to get his name in the papers.
Now instead of choosing to keep the horse with one of the best trainers in the country who could have assured his future and that his legend remained, he is to turn his back on the sport that made him and his horse famous and instead chase yet more glory for his horse.
Kauto has nothing more to prove to anybody.
It disgusts me !
 
Fantasy_World said:
Now instead of choosing to keep the horse with one of the best trainers in the country who could have assured his future and that his legend remained
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Assured his future doing what exactly? Leading out the string and doing the odd parade? Seems to me a horse as young and intelligent as KS needs a proper job to do . . . and what's wrong with trying his hoof at a new career? Trying dressage by no means takes away from his awesome record at the track . . . it just means his brain and body are kept active and he has the chance to shine in a new way. LC and YB will be more than aware what a national treasure KS is and will undoubtedly do their utmost to get the best of out him . . . including admitting defeat should KS not take to his new "job."

I'm sorry, but I just can't get my head round the idea that seeing if this wonderfully intelligent little horse can do another job in any way tarnishes his lofty achievements so far.

Why wouldn't those who love him want to see him having fun learning something new? He's only 8 . . . if he takes to dressage or even eventing, how much fun will it be for his public to see him succeed at something else? If he doesn't, then I'm sure the relevant connections will find another outlet for his energy and intelligence.

P
 
AdorableAlice said:
Why don't some of you put the same amount of effort into campaigning for the care and welfare of the huge amount of not so famous racehorses, many of which find themselves in dire need of a good home.

These horses would love to find themselves in the hands of a master horseman such as Yogi Bresnier.

Kauto Star will want for nothing and be given every opportunity to have a long, happy, useful and un-stressed life. The clown who commented about the horse doing endless circles because he is a 'dressage' horse, obviously has no idea what being reschooled actually means.

I really hope he enjoys his new life, perhaps we will see him at Hoy's, displaying perfect flat work in the Racehorse to Riding horse championship.

He is a legend, will remain a legend in the minds of all of us lucky enough to have been around to see him and the legend has been very fortunate to be owned by someone who is willing and caring enough to ensure the horse a safe future.

A future that does not entail leading the string galloping up a hill day after day followed by a spell on the walker and 22 hours in the stable. That is the perfectly acceptable lifestyle of a racehorse, he is not a racehorse anymore and deserves to spend the rest of his life in a more natural routine.

For those of us old enough to remember.....Hallo Dandy didn't have such a good deal, and there will be plenty of old racehorses in fields right now, minus 3 degrees and no grub, wishing they belonged to Mr Smith.
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Actually I do campaign and also own an ex racer who was reschooled and is a hack.
Kauto was not a horse that needed 'saving' he was offered a permanent and loving home by Nicholls.
As for the comment about the horse being in a more natural routine.
Don't make me laugh.
How is a competition horse kept in a natural routine?
Frankly it is not much different from being trained as a racehorse.
 
Fantasy_World said:
Agree!
Also to note the person that was in discussion about his future was his owner Clive Smith who I doubt has had the closeness to the horse that the staff at Ditcheat had.
Sorry but going to the races, maybe see him popping a few fences at home, or a few gallops up the gallops is not enough for him to make an informed decision.
Whilst I respect Yogi Breisner and indeed Laura Collett, I happen to respect Paul Nicholls and Brian Clifford more.
No body knows Kauto better than these two, except perhaps for his groom who would have had a good idea of his general attitude to life.
Kauto Star is not just some ex racer he is a superstar!
Could you imagine what the late Ginger McCain would have told people if it was suggested that the legendary Red Rum was being shipped off to do dressage?
Or even Desert Orchid, what would his trainer have made of the news?
Kauto is up there, with them. He is held in a similarly high regard as afforded to a National Hunt horse with such talent.
He deserved an easier life.
One that revolved around his home DITCHEAT!
He would not have led a boring life there.
Did Red Rum or Dessie look bored to tears doing parades and racecourse gallops?
Of course not.
There were so many options available to Kauto Star.
So why was this one chosen?
The owner appears to know what is best for the horse.
Why was he up at all hours mucking out, feeding and grooming.
Did he carefully ride Kauto up the gallops and over the schooling jumps.
No of course not.
He paid the bills but had been rewarded ten fold with the horse of a lifetime.
Not just in prize money and trophies but also it helped to get his name in the papers.
Now instead of choosing to keep the horse with one of the best trainers in the country who could have assured his future and that his legend remained, he is to turn his back on the sport that made him and his horse famous and instead chase yet more glory for his horse.
Kauto has nothing more to prove to anybody.
It disgusts me !
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Excellent user name matches the post entirely.

The horse is 11. Given a bit of luck and good health he should make it to 25 plus. Superstar or not he won't be leading a string of young racehorses up the hill for many more years. What is he going to do on a busy racing yard as an old horse ? He should have 10 years of being able to enjoy life doing a variety of activities that are within the capabilites of an ageing horse. Galloping up Ditcheats hill or being chucked out in the field are not included.

He will never lose his status as a legend and his owner should be respected for ensuring the horse has the opportunity to live his life out with the best of everything.
 
Fantasy_World said:
As for the comment about the horse being in a more natural routine.
Don't make me laugh.
How is a competition horse kept in a natural routine?
Frankly it is not much different from being trained as a racehorse.
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Ask Carl Hester about that . . . his horses hack out, have regular turnout, have a varied schooling routine. Some top eventers hunt even while competing. How many top racehorses have a similar routine?

There are three BE and two BD horses on my yard . . . they go out in the field every day for a good six/seven hours, they hack regularly, school, go round the gallops, box up and go to clinics and compete. Doesn't sound like the life of a top racehorse to me.

As far as I know CS hasn't said he's aiming KS at Rio 2016 . . . nor Badminton, the World Dressage Championships, etc. He's merely gone to LC's yard to see if he has an aptitude for dressage. If he manages to do well at some unaffiliated competitions, that will be an achievement and do his brain and body the world of good for learning a new set of skills.

P
 
AdorableAlice said:
Excellent user name matches the post entirely.

The horse is 11. Given a bit of luck and good health he should make it to 25 plus. Superstar or not he won't be leading a string of young racehorses up the hill for many more years. What is he going to do on a busy racing yard as an old horse ? He should have 10 years of being able to enjoy life doing a variety of activities that are within the capabilites of an ageing horse. Galloping up Ditcheats hill or being chucked out in the field are not included.

He will never lose his status as a legend and his owner should be respected for ensuring the horse has the opportunity to live his life out with the best of everything.
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You have summed it up perfectly AA. One of the best posts on this thread.
 
Fantasy_World said:
Actually I do campaign and also own an ex racer who was reschooled and is a hack.
Kauto was not a horse that needed 'saving' he was offered a permanent and loving home by Nicholls.
As for the comment about the horse being in a more natural routine.
Don't make me laugh.
How is a competition horse kept in a natural routine?
Frankly it is not much different from being trained as a racehorse.
Click to expand...

I did not suggest the horse needs saving.

Natural routine - slow work, taught to round and go deep, bend, plenty of turn out every day, belly full of fibre, no scopes or blood tests every other day should result in a let down, relaxed and sound horse.

I admire everyone who rehomes and has the skill to retrain a racehorse, I know little about horses and certainly would not have the experience to do it. I had no intention of making you or anybody else laugh, but the life of a competition horse and a racehorse do have wide differences and that is why you will see old competition horses still winning in their late teens and racehorses at the end of their careers at 10 to 12. The lucky and sound ones, like KS, going onto to a fullfilling and happy second half of their lives, funded by responsible owners.
 
bonny said:
He is NOT a normal exracehorse and I would one would feel that he's being humiliated if he ever takes part in an unaffliated walk and trot test. What on earth would that prove ?
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Do you think Neptune Collanges felt humiliated when he won one then?

I think it's great for ex racehorses that such a high profile one is attempting retraining.
 
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bonny said:
He is NOT a normal exracehorse and I would one would feel that he's being humiliated if he ever takes part in an unaffliated walk and trot test. What on earth would that prove ?
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The horse has NOTHING to prove.

The owner of the horse has EVERYTHING to prove, and by ensuring the horse is kept like a king, reschooled to ensure he remains sound in both mind and body and placing the horse with the best handlers capable of handling this type of horse, the owner has proved himself.

All legends, equine or human, reach the end of their career at some point, what do they do then ? So many posters are saying KS should stay in his box on the same routine regardless of his age and mental well being.
Perhaps we should insist AP rides a racehorse in his old age because he is a legend. My guess he would prefer a days hunting on a safe conveyance.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the horse enjoying doing something else, it's called enjoying semi retirement.
 
I think also its the fact PN was never consulted, PN was deemed good enough to train him for all those years but wasnt considered for discussion on his retirement plans. I hope that hasnt set a precedent and if or when CS decides he would like KS to do something else he will discuss it with LC rather than keep her in the dark .

If that did happen I can imagine the furore on here and then you will actually be able to experience what us PN fans are experiencing.
 
claracanter said:
Do you think Neptune Collanges felt humiliated when he won one then?

I think it's great for ex racehorses that such a high profile one is attempting retraining.
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There is a world of difference between the 2 horses, Kauto Star is a legend, Neptune Collenges just a very good chaser. They also seem to have very diferent temperments. Kauto Star became the horses he was because of Paul Nicholls, he made the decisions, to an extent he became his horse and I think what he wanted should of been taken into account.
In my opinion Kauto Star does not need another career, he was the best and the thought of him doing a walk and trot test is cringeworthy. I suspect the horse will think the same himself and then where does he go ?
 
The good news is that Kauto Star has been moved to a top class yard with top horsemen who are under no illusion that he is going to find it easy and will hopefully not be pressured into asking him something he finds too hard. Yogi is probably one of the most experienced all round horseman around and understands the difference between all the disciplines and how different temperaments and conformation cope with what is being asked. There is no doubt that the horse will be somewhat bemused to start with - he has spent the last 8 years walking up the road with his friends, cantering up the gallop and walking home. He is comfortable with that and knows what each day is likely to bring. Some horses thrive on this routine, indeed need it, others need the variety that the 1st type find so stressful. He has always been very well ridden but I don't believe that Paul Nicholls uses regular flatwork sessions like some trainers do so he is comfortable going his way and what he will be asked will be completely foreign to him. It will be like a middle aged man taking up pilates - hard!
Also to take into account is his conformation and movement. He has never been a great mover, particularly behind and had an injury behind when he fell at Exeter as a novice. By nature he doesn't step under behind and carry himself on his hind legs (like Neptune Collonges does) but is more inclined to push out behind and keep his back a little hollow. Is it right or necessary to ask him to change? He will certainly find himself out of his comfort zone however sympathetic Laura and Yogi are.
Reading between the lines, I suspect it all stems from 2 strong minded people failing to find middle ground and the horse being caught in the middle. PN has dealt with him for 8 years, knows all his quirks and foibles and has a shrewd idea that KS is happiest in a string doing what he knows and isn't one to happily go off on his own. Clive Smith has heard of others hunting and competing and wants his horse to do the same. His motivation for that is anyone's guess but I don't think he will have prepared himself for the flak. He is not a horseman and may not understand quite what is involved. Now the bridges are burnt, he won't be going back to Ditcheat so what happens to a high mettled horse who doesn't like going out on his own if a competition career doesn't beckon?
 
EKW said:
PN isn't the easiest of people to deal with and maybe that is why CS opted out of further consultation with him with regards to the horse.
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I havnt heard that, I know his staff have been there for years and years which speaks volumes. I know he is a perfectionist but that is why he is so succesful. Ive heard various things over the years in regard to CS and its well documented in PNs book about how CS came to him after falling out with Martin Pipe.

I hope that after KS career is over and he retires properly he can go back to Ditcheat if both parties agree.
 
oldvic very well said ! A post that makes a lot of sense. Yes Kauto Star is indeed the one caught in the middle of all this.

With regard to another comment about Paul Nicholls being hard to get on with. I have never found that to be the case and have never heard a bad word said about him either!
 
I am really torn over the plans for KS. I adore this horse like most of the people on here. I stood in the bookies trying to hide the tears streaming down my face the last time he ran, i know he stirs such emotions in many. I didn't want him to run there as he had just had a bad fall in training but the connections said he was fit for it and we have to trust what they say, then he was pulled up.
I keep thinking though, horses live in the moment. he will take a bit of time to settle in, and that saddens me, he could have still been at PN and not have that transition. but he won't be thinking he is being humiliated by doing a bit of dressage. LC seems to be a decent girl who is in the main an eventer so I am sure she hacks the horses and likes a blast. can you imagine having ks in your yard and not taking him for a gallop. Even if she is away eventing, i am sure she has capable staff who will be riding KS so he isn't going to be wasting away through lack of attention. He is used to being adored and having lots of attention and i am hoping he will have the same at LC's place. who wouldn't love him.
The bit that worries me is that he has a lot of miles on the clock and pn said he isn't up for it. then i think, well my mare (ex pointer) had a lot of miles on the clock and had numerous issues and is now a happy content horse in her mid 20's, still hacking out and having a good life. as long as she is in her routine she is happy and i know what she is capable of and what she can't do now. who's to say that KS won't have a routine that he is happy with and a workload suited to his needs. I know she isn't a legend like KS, so not making that comparison, but I don't know if he will be thinking, i am a superstar, i'm not doing this crap.

I have read all the posts and can see all sides of the argument. PN staff know the horse better than anyone but are upset and obviously emotional right now and the tweets have echoed this.

I think all of us respect Kauto Star, the best chaser of all time. He has earned his owner an absolute fortune and owes him nothing. He most certainly owes him a heck of a lot and should have the best retirement from racing possible. He is only 12 and i know my horse wouldn't have enjoyed life as much if she didn't have something to do. I am guessing that a clever and fit horse like him would be similar.

Clive Smith has said that if for any reason it's not the best thing for him then he will go home to his place so we know he isn't going to be passed around.

Only time will tell how this will pan out, I just hope his best interests will always be the priority.
 
EKW said:
PN isn't the easiest of people to deal with and maybe that is why CS opted out of further consultation with him with regards to the horse.
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Perhaps we all need to remember training horses for owners is a business. Plenty of trainers regardless of the discipline will have had horses removed or sold for a variety of reasons.

An owner is just that, an owner who pays the bills that keep the trainer in business and enable the trainer to give local people gainful employment. Most owners pay a lot of money for the horse and it's training costs in the hope that the horse stays safe, comes home and maybe wins something.

Mr Smith could have taken the horse home for his daughter to do pony club on if he wished. The reality is the owner has done what he considers the best for his horse, regardless of what legendary status the horse has. The horse is in safe hands.

A number of decent horses have gone from the yard and other yards to the point to point field to ply their trade in their old age, as schoolmasters, nothing wrong with that at all. It is the owners decision but I expect the staff that did those horses would have prefered them to go to a less risky second career. Personally I find watching horses that have won good races, slog their way round for £50 an unedifying sight. It was far more pleasurable to watch the racehorse class at the NEC, anyone that saw Rogers Revenge win will know what I mean.
 
PolarExpress said:
Assured his future doing what exactly? Leading out the string and doing the odd parade? Seems to me a horse as young and intelligent as KS needs a proper job to do . . . and what's wrong with trying his hoof at a new career? Trying dressage by no means takes away from his awesome record at the track . . . it just means his brain and body are kept active and he has the chance to shine in a new way. LC and YB will be more than aware what a national treasure KS is and will undoubtedly do their utmost to get the best of out him . . . including admitting defeat should KS not take to his new "job."

I'm sorry, but I just can't get my head round the idea that seeing if this wonderfully intelligent little horse can do another job in any way tarnishes his lofty achievements so far.

Why wouldn't those who love him want to see him having fun learning something new? He's only 8 . . . if he takes to dressage or even eventing, how much fun will it be for his public to see him succeed at something else? If he doesn't, then I'm sure the relevant connections will find another outlet for his energy and intelligence.

P
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His future would have been assured doing what he knows and is comfortable with. He is not 8, he will be 13 in 3 weeks time. While still relatively young, he is at an age where life starts to catch up on you.

AdorableAlice said:
I did not suggest the horse needs saving.

Natural routine - slow work, taught to round and go deep, bend, plenty of turn out every day, belly full of fibre, no scopes or blood tests every other day should result in a let down, relaxed and sound horse.

I admire everyone who rehomes and has the skill to retrain a racehorse, I know little about horses and certainly would not have the experience to do it. I had no intention of making you or anybody else laugh, but the life of a competition horse and a racehorse do have wide differences and that is why you will see old competition horses still winning in their late teens and racehorses at the end of their careers at 10 to 12. The lucky and sound ones, like KS, going onto to a fullfilling and happy second half of their lives, funded by responsible owners.
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He will find round and deep pretty uncomfortable for a bit. His muscles are developed in a completely different way. If he is not running there will be no need for the expense of scopes and blood tests. They are done when deemed necessary, not routinely on a daily basis. The reason that racehorses careers end at 10 - 12 is that they lose their speed so then are beaten by younger faster horses. Yes there are differences between racehorses and competition horses, but many racehorses have regular turnout. Retirement can be a problem for old competition horses, especially the high level ones as they don't necessarily cope well with a change in lifestyle.

AdorableAlice said:
Excellent user name matches the post entirely.

The horse is 11. Given a bit of luck and good health he should make it to 25 plus. Superstar or not he won't be leading a string of young racehorses up the hill for many more years. What is he going to do on a busy racing yard as an old horse ? He should have 10 years of being able to enjoy life doing a variety of activities that are within the capabilites of an ageing horse. Galloping up Ditcheats hill or being chucked out in the field are not included.

He will never lose his status as a legend and his owner should be respected for ensuring the horse has the opportunity to live his life out with the best of everything.
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He is nearly 13, not 11. I don't think his body will appreciate dressage in 10 years time. He would be able to do steady work on the gallops for some time yet - probably as long as he could do dressage comfortably. Working racehorses isn't all about galloping flat out.
 
I think that retraining a horse with a high profile like Kauto Star for an alternative career may well be beneficial for many wider reasons too.

1. It will publicise the issue of retraining race horses and raise awareness
2. It will make people more aware of what ex-race horses are capable of (especially if he does well)
3. It could raise the profile of whatever sphere he ends up in
4. The debate about his future will hopefully remind racing fans and the industry of what can happen to ex-racehorses who aren't so lucky.

Personally I think those saying he shouldn't have been moved are doing so for rather selfish reasons and are imposing human values upon the horse. The horse will be well cared for and provided for in the future, he doesn't care whether he is treated like a star or not. In fact he would probably be happier if he was treated like a horse.
 
KristmasKat said:
I think that retraining a horse with a high profile like Kauto Star for an alternative career may well be beneficial for many wider reasons too.

1. It will publicise the issue of retraining race horses and raise awareness
2. It will make people more aware of what ex-race horses are capable of (especially if he does well)
3. It could raise the profile of whatever sphere he ends up in
4. The debate about his future will hopefully remind racing fans and the industry of what can happen to ex-racehorses who aren't so lucky.

Personally I think those saying he shouldn't have been moved are doing so for rather selfish reasons and are imposing human values upon the horse. The horse will be well cared for and provided for in the future, he doesn't care whether he is treated like a star or not. In fact he would probably be happier if he was treated like a horse.
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He's already shown what he's capable of and adding some low key dressage events into the mix will not enhance anything about him. Plus there are already alot of exracehorses out there competing in all disciplines, look at the number of threads about them on here alone.
I think the fact that he did so well where he was shows us that he was happy and well cared for there, they are the team who know him, who wanted to keep him and they should of been allowed to do just that.....
 
EKW said:
Ah! It looks as though everyone at Ditcheat thought that Kauto was going to live out his retirement there and not go on and do another job!

Why keep a horse on a yard, half fit, knowing what it should be doing but getting frustrated as he's not doing full work. He has a brain, why not use it? He may quite like dressage!
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I think that the staff know how to ride a horse, and keep him sweet, otherwise PN would not have good horses which win year after year.
Horses like routine, it is their "comfort blanket"
Horse dont get frustrated by being half fit, where did you get such a strange idea: that would mean 99 % of horses in this country would be "frustrated"
 
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