Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
Doing a bit of jumping for development at home is miles away from being sent team chasing or hunting .
Kauto Star at Olympia last night
- Thread starter Roody2
- Start date
Doing a bit of jumping for development at home is miles away from being sent team chasing or hunting .
minesadouble
Well-Known Member
To those experts that are convinced he was doped please name the sedative he was given that doped him so efficiently yet did not give him the old 'swinging willy' 'I'd love to get my hands on that miracle drug!!!!
Exploding Chestnuts
Well-Known Member
Personally I think this "public performance" is more to do with owner ego than common sense, such a horse is "public property" indeed, the owner has made the decision to make his later years public, I don't know who advised him, but he is the owner, the man with the money, so really no one is going to "stand up to him" ... PN tried and it ended in acrimony.
I don't think we will see much more of this, I hope not.
I can understand someone taking on a nice ex racer and giving him a new purpose, as a hobby, but not to take a class horse with so many miles on the clock to be professionally produced, its ludicrous.
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Exploding Chestnuts
Well-Known Member
I agree with that, though it has hardly been mentioned.
The whole point of dressage is performance, a bit like ballet is to dance, it should be a pleasure to watch, and really this was not.
justabob
Well-Known Member
She said she had given him too much work to keep him quiet, well he used to walk into the winners enclosure after winning the gold cup with a swing in his step. It is hard to give a thoroughbred too much work to get to the bottom of them. Oh and the miracle drug is called "Reserpine"
Exploding Chestnuts
Well-Known Member
Why .... do you think this is what you want to use on your horses ........... people are always looking for the perfect drug, but is still a drug. I expect any substance used would be legal, but really, is it ethical, is it within the spirit of the game?
bubbleburster
Active Member
I've sedated three geldings with ACP (Sedalin) and not one of them has dropped their penis.
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tallyho!
Following a strict mediterranean diet...
Give him time..
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minesadouble
Well-Known Member
We lightly sedate with ACP for pulling and clipping and the two we use it on only need a sniff and theirs are hanging to the floor!
tallyho!
Following a strict mediterranean diet...
Do thwy have penises?
teapot
Well-Known Member
I know it is but popping around a BE 90 would well be in his remit though. He just looks hacked off in last night's various videos. As I said clearly the owner has reasons but pity he's basically being used as a PR machine.
Or like a friend has just said, why demonstrate him at Olympia the evening of the highest quality dressage, where's the link between the two? It's not like at Barbury last year where he followed a ROR to eventing class. All seems a tad odd but hey he's not mine.
SkewbyTwo
Well-Known Member
Having now watched the clips and the riding close up, I think it's highly possible she's scared of the horse. She's tense and tight and shutting him down as a result. Her riding was inexcusable. The horse is so very generous. It's very wrong I think.
bubbleburster
Active Member
It is not my experience that shut down horse flash their tails like that, only ones which are pissed off or hurting.
Pigeon
Well-Known Member
I was expecting something horrific before I watched the video.
It wasn't that flippin bad. Mine likes to drop me and suck behind the leg in new places - it's so he can do an emergency exit at speed
It's a green horse thing, and a tb thing especially. LC is not a dressage rider, she is not going to ride like the people who were in before her - she is an eventer! And quite a short one at that
You know what I think the issue was? She was afraid to use her stick, because of the publicity, and she couldn't do any of the things we would do to open our horses up (medium canter etc) because she was worried that would tip him over the edge. I think one well timed swat with her stick would have been better than nagging legs and would probably have got him listening and forward, but with all those cameras on me, I would choose nagging legs every time
It wasn't the most graceful thing but it certainly wasn't horse abuse :O I admire her for getting out there! It's more than most people do!
It wasn't that flippin bad. Mine likes to drop me and suck behind the leg in new places - it's so he can do an emergency exit at speed
It's a green horse thing, and a tb thing especially. LC is not a dressage rider, she is not going to ride like the people who were in before her - she is an eventer! And quite a short one at that You know what I think the issue was? She was afraid to use her stick, because of the publicity, and she couldn't do any of the things we would do to open our horses up (medium canter etc) because she was worried that would tip him over the edge. I think one well timed swat with her stick would have been better than nagging legs and would probably have got him listening and forward, but with all those cameras on me, I would choose nagging legs every time
It wasn't the most graceful thing but it certainly wasn't horse abuse :O I admire her for getting out there! It's more than most people do!
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charlie76
Well-Known Member
I may be wrong but I reckon they doped him as they thought he would be sharp, the sweat and the shutting down is typical of a horse that's had a bit of sedaline. I have ridden one having had some and that's exactly what happened, its like the lights suddenly go off!
RachelFerd
Well-Known Member
Most horses don't drop their bits with a touch of sedalin - not under saddle at least. I would personally prefer to find out he had been pilled, then to think that he is that switched off and unhappy... have ridden probably 30 or 40 different horses with dope in their system (for various reasons - working in racing and veterinary hospitals) and its amazing how it can change different horses in different ways. But that tacky sweat on his neck and between his back legs is a classic sign, as is the tail swishing and general drunk appearance in the walk. Of course, I could be completely wrong... but the whole thing is a terrible advert for ROR now. Should have let me and Pete do a demo. I could have guaranteed airs above the ground and some dramatic high speed half pass
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Pigeon
Well-Known Member
I did not watch that video and think that horse was in pain. I saw a worried, tense horse who was behind the leg. But who here can say their (recently off the track!!) horse would do better in that situation? I would be the first to speak out if I saw cruelty but I don't think you can form an opinion of his current welfare based on that clip.
My personal experience;
When mine was last in pain (had a minuscule bit of grit stuck in his frog) it looked like his leg was going to fall off. There was much rolling of eyes and snorting and dangling said leg in the air. I promise you, I think you would know if he was sore. My tb also very much expresses his emotions. He will flash his tail and kick out with a hind leg if I feed another horse a carrot. He will do it if he pre-empts a canter transition and I don't let him go. It's a frustration thing. He also does it out of fear - if something really scares him, and I promise you it doesn't take much, he will run back, snort, and do the tail flash/kick. It's a quirk, it does indicate unhappiness, but unhappiness to him is witnessing a scary leaf blow across the yard, or not being turned out first or constantly hand fed fruit.
He has been examined to within an inch of his life and there's nothing physically wrong with him. Tbs are very sensitive souls. This was an overwhelming environment. I'm not surprised he didn't look at his best.Could Laura have coped better? Possibly. Could I, or my horse, have coped better? NOPE, and so I'm not going to go pointing fingers. My first choice would have been let him live out in a field with his buddies, but many horses don't cope well with field retirement and get horribly bored. I know of the two I've kept retired, one was bored, and we actually had to start doing stuff with him or he caused trouble. I imagine his owner knows him well and wanted him to be in an environment where he could still keep his brain occupied.
Now I'm no expert, and others may disagree, but I honestly wouldn't worry too much based on that video alone!!
Eta: Could well be doped. Sedalin before dressage seems ambitious, my babby horse can't manage straight lines after only a tiny dose!!
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Pigeon
Well-Known Member
Most horses don't drop their bits with a touch of sedalin - not under saddle at least. I would personally prefer to find out he had been pilled, then to think that he is that switched off and unhappy... have ridden probably 30 or 40 different horses with dope in their system (for various reasons - working in racing and veterinary hospitals) and its amazing how it can change different horses in different ways. But that tacky sweat on his neck and between his back legs is a classic sign, as is the tail swishing and general drunk appearance in the walk. Of course, I could be completely wrong... but the whole thing is a terrible advert for ROR now. Should have let me and Pete do a demo. I could have guaranteed airs above the ground and some dramatic high speed half pass
Haha now that I'd like to see!!!
bubbleburster
Active Member
I did not watch that video and think that horse was in pain. I saw a worried, tense horse who was behind the leg. But who here can say their (recently off the track!!) horse would do better in that situation? I would be the first to speak out if I saw cruelty but I don't think you can form an opinion of his current welfare based on that clip.
My personal experience;
When mine was last in pain (had a minuscule bit of grit stuck in his frog) it looked like his leg was going to fall off. There was much rolling of eyes and snorting and dangling said leg in the air. I promise you, I think you would know if he was sore. My tb also very much expresses his emotions. He will flash his tail and kick out with a hind leg if I feed another horse a carrot. He will do it if he pre-empts a canter transition and I don't let him go. It's a frustration thing. He also does it out of fear - if something really scares him, and I promise you it doesn't take much, he will run back, snort, and do the tail flash/kick. It's a quirk, it does indicate unhappiness, but unhappiness to him is witnessing a scary leaf blow across the yard, or not being turned out first or constantly hand fed fruit.
Could Laura have coped better? Possibly. Could I, or my horse, have coped better? NOPE, and so I'm not going to go pointing fingers. My first choice would have been let him live out in a field with his buddies, but many horses don't cope well with field retirement and get horribly bored. I know of the two I've kept retired, one was bored, and we actually had to start doing stuff with him or he caused trouble. I imagine his owner knows him well and wanted him to be in an environment where he could still keep his brain occupied.
Now I'm no expert, and others may disagree, but I honestly wouldn't worry too much based on that video alone!!
He isn't recently off the track.
KautoStar1
Well-Known Member
I did not watch that video and think that horse was in pain. I saw a worried, tense horse who was behind the leg. But who here can say their (recently off the track!!) horse would do better in that situation? I would be the first to speak out if I saw cruelty but I don't think you can form an opinion of his current welfare based on that clip.
My personal experience;
When mine was last in pain (had a minuscule bit of grit stuck in his frog) it looked like his leg was going to fall off. There was much rolling of eyes and snorting and dangling said leg in the air. I promise you, I think you would know if he was sore. My tb also very much expresses his emotions. He will flash his tail and kick out with a hind leg if I feed another horse a carrot. He will do it if he pre-empts a canter transition and I don't let him go. It's a frustration thing. He also does it out of fear - if something really scares him, and I promise you it doesn't take much, he will run back, snort, and do the tail flash/kick. It's a quirk, it does indicate unhappiness, but unhappiness to him is witnessing a scary leaf blow across the yard, or not being turned out first or constantly hand fed fruit.
Could Laura have coped better? Possibly. Could I, or my horse, have coped better? NOPE, and so I'm not going to go pointing fingers. My first choice would have been let him live out in a field with his buddies, but many horses don't cope well with field retirement and get horribly bored. I know of the two I've kept retired, one was bored, and we actually had to start doing stuff with him or he caused trouble. I imagine his owner knows him well and wanted him to be in an environment where he could still keep his brain occupied.
Now I'm no expert, and others may disagree, but I honestly wouldn't worry too much based on that video alone!!
Eta: Could well be doped. Sedalin before dressage seems ambitious, my babby horse can't manage straight lines after only a tiny dose!!
A sensible & well balanced post.
Easy for others to judge and say what should have been done but easy with the benefit of hindsight. I'm sure his team will have learnt some valuable lessons from this & approach things differently next time.
Pigeon
Well-Known Member
Sorry I thought he was retired in oct 2013, rather than 2012!! But that's still only a smidge over two years, to effectively completely change his way of going. I just think after seeing people's reactions I was expecting a horror show and the reality is a far cry from that.
It would be nice to see a recent video of him schooling at home. Perhaps then we can make a more informed opinion
It would be nice to see a recent video of him schooling at home. Perhaps then we can make a more informed opinion
Sussexbythesea
Well-Known Member
Sorry I thought he was retired in oct 2013, rather than 2012!! But that's still only a smidge over two years, to effectively completely change his way of going. I just think after seeing people's reactions I was expecting a horror show and the reality is a far cry from that.
It would be nice to see a recent video of him schooling at home. Perhaps then we can make a more informed opinion
Pigeon - did you see this interview with clips? http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/equestrian/30516647
It's not a horror show exactly but not pleasant to watch.
Exploding Chestnuts
Well-Known Member
sounds like FUN................... that tacky sweat on his neck and between his back legs is a classic sign, as is the tail swishing and general drunk appearance in the walk. Of course, I could be completely wrong... but the whole thing is a terrible advert for ROR now. Should have let me and Pete do a demo. I could have guaranteed airs above the ground and some dramatic high speed half pass
RachelFerd
Well-Known Member
The BBC video is a horror show. And i am sad to say that, as I was someone who was quite happy with the KS going to do dressage with LC situation in the first place. Previous videos do not look anywhere near as bad (for example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYWCrNEDhmg - nowhere near as switched off)
Exploding Chestnuts
Well-Known Member
"His team" are very experienced and professional horsemen [owner excluded here], what they thought they were doing, I have no idea, no way should such a good animal be risked in some sort of competitive eventing environment just to prove a point. He was a star, is a star. The happiness of the horse should be a priority, and he clearly is not happy.
I expect PN et al will be watching this development, and will feel rather sad.
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Exploding Chestnuts
Well-Known Member
Pigeon
Well-Known Member
I have only seen the clip someone posted near the beginning of this thread. Is there a link to the bbc one?
He looks happy in that video, and she is riding better!!
RachelFerd
Well-Known Member
Pigeon - this is the BBC Olympia video - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/equestrian/30516647
Pigeon
Well-Known Member
But ultimately both parties have an agenda, namely publicity, and it is fair enough that the owner has the final say. That's just my perspective on things!! The problem is with horses, there is generally not a 'right answer'.
I am curious though as to why they chose an eventer to further his dressage career? Would have made more sense for him to go to a dressage rider? Was there ever the prospect of him eventing?
Pigeon
Well-Known Member
Oh. Okay. Yes. I see what you mean.
It looks almost like she's flapping the reins at him. What is she trying to achieve?? It's very odd.. I would love to hear her explanation. She looked quite upset in the video, I think she knew she didn't deal so well.
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