Kauto Star at Olympia last night

[RachelFerd]

There are many types of hunting country. Plenty of non jumping hunts for a start and even more who never tackle more than a 80cm hunter trial type fence. Any sound horse can safely get over those fences after a little reschooling/gridwork etc
Nor can you possibly know if a horse was suitable for hunting after a single outing. I would suggest 3-6 times before you can take an *informed* decision.
Nor is hunting tough on horses compared to racing. More horses breakdown racing than in any other equine sport combined I daresay.
It would be ridiculously easy to find KS a hunting home where there are easy one-horse days where jumping does not feature.

Sure. There are a variety of hunts out there - I grew up hunting with the Berkeley, have qualified point to pointers with two different packs of drag hounds and I have also been out with the Thurlow, the Suffolk, the Essex & Suffolk and the Cottesmore - so the full range of jumping/non-jumping and so on. Of all of them, I did enjoy going out with the Sandhurst drag as they have good ground conditions and jumping is all well prepared fences and completely optional. As hunting experiences go, I found them the friendliest and the most horse-friendly too, and if I had to go out hunting, it would be with them.

However - my horse will never hunt again - sure, I could take him 6 times and decided after that if I had well and truly blown his mind or not.. but since I have a nice all-round competition horse who is successful in what he does do (and is a pleasure to ride) I don't need to take the risk. On his one and only time out he kicked someone else's horse (he does not normally kick) he reversed into ditches and nearly fell over backwards rearing, he sweated profusely and lost a large amount of condition (I have struggled to keep condition on him, so avoid these situations) he started planting (not something he does at competitions) and with all his pratting around, he was lame the next day with muscular strain. Although his galloping and jumping was fine, I think its fair to say that to avoid destruction of other horses, of himself, and of me, hunting is not something we will ever do again.

I have also seen horses keel over with heart attacks out hunting, put legs through wooden bridges and be shot, be near-drowned in huge drainage rheens, break legs from putting legs down rabbit holes, and have rotational falls trying to jump gates.

I am only stating this as an example of why I do not like the *assumption* that every ex racehorse can happily retire to the hunting field. Some can, some can't. I had two lovely days out hunting last year, both on TBs, one with the Suffolk on a 4yo racehorse in training, who was exemplary in his behaviour all day, although there is very little jumping with the Suffolk. I also went out with the Cottesmore on a very experienced hunter and ex-chaser who gave me a fabulous day out hedge hopping and being a perfect example of a well-behaved hunter.

 

[glamourpuss]

Have there really been social media campaigns to remove the horse from her? Wow. That is taking things a bit far to say the least. I must be naive or have nice friends because I certainly haven't witnessed anything like this in fact other than a bit of disappointment at the handling of the situation I haven't seen any personal attacks on Laura or the horse's connections.

I was very uncomfortable watching the BBC clip, because whatever the reason behind his behaviour it struck me as a horse that just wasn't being listened to. He was struggling..be that with the atmosphere or sedation he may or may not have had and despite Laura's desperate attempts his behaviour looked to be detoriating. In my 'armchair critic/keyboard warrior opinion this is the time to change tack with a horse (maybe something as simple someone walking at his head might've been enough to get him back on side...who knows). I think that what has caused most discussion is the fact that they kept perservering with a course of action that the horse looked uncomfortable with.

Sadly for Laura if she wants to enjoy the benefit that having the ride on such a high profile horse gives her then she is also going to have to take the analysis of her performance with him (from armchair critics such as me!) on the chin even if its not the glowing adoration she would like.

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

I am not clear why you are so sure the horse will be staying in the yard, what can he do now ........... eventing or team chasing would be very risky for such a high profile horse, he is not really suited to competitive dressage, probably OK for ROR classes, but his owner is very ambitious, and really re training classes are for amateur owner riders imho, its bit like turning up to the local unafflitated show and finding the jumping classes are filled with pro riders youngsters.
I know it is not easy to try to ride a horse which is not co operating, for whatever reason, but they elected to go there , so really I have no sympathy for those who made the decision.
I can't really believe anyone wuld go to watch her ride this horse .......... what would be the point?

because anyone who knows anything about LC,yogi and clive, and understands the politics of having horses with riders..........will know the horse will stay!

 

[RunToEarth]

Sure. There are a variety of hunts out there - I grew up hunting with the Berkeley, have qualified point to pointers with two different packs of drag hounds and I have also been out with the Thurlow, the Suffolk, the Essex & Suffolk and the Cottesmore - so the full range of jumping/non-jumping and so on. Of all of them, I did enjoy going out with the Sandhurst drag as they have good ground conditions and jumping is all well prepared fences and completely optional. As hunting experiences go, I found them the friendliest and the most horse-friendly too, and if I had to go out hunting, it would be with them.

However - my horse will never hunt again - sure, I could take him 6 times and decided after that if I had well and truly blown his mind or not.. but since I have a nice all-round competition horse who is successful in what he does do (and is a pleasure to ride) I don't need to take the risk. On his one and only time out he kicked someone else's horse (he does not normally kick) he reversed into ditches and nearly fell over backwards rearing, he sweated profusely and lost a large amount of condition (I have struggled to keep condition on him, so avoid these situations) he started planting (not something he does at competitions) and with all his pratting around, he was lame the next day with muscular strain. Although his galloping and jumping was fine, I think its fair to say that to avoid destruction of other horses, of himself, and of me, hunting is not something we will ever do again.

I have also seen horses keel over with heart attacks out hunting, put legs through wooden bridges and be shot, be near-drowned in huge drainage rheens, break legs from putting legs down rabbit holes, and have rotational falls trying to jump gates.

I am only stating this as an example of why I do not like the *assumption* that every ex racehorse can happily retire to the hunting field. Some can, some can't. I had two lovely days out hunting last year, both on TBs, one with the Suffolk on a 4yo racehorse in training, who was exemplary in his behaviour all day, although there is very little jumping with the Suffolk. I also went out with the Cottesmore on a very experienced hunter and ex-chaser who gave me a fabulous day out hedge hopping and being a perfect example of a well-behaved hunter.

I agree with you, and whilst Denman has settled wonderfully to his life after the hot seat, who knows what KS will do. I'm sad to see the beeb footage, it has really made me feel for the horse - he deserves to be happy at any cost after what he has done for the sport - and I was devastated he didn't stay with PN and live out his retirement at "home".

 

[_GG_]

because anyone who knows anything about LC,yogi and clive, and understands the politics of having horses with riders..........will know the horse will stay!

Agreed. I cannot believe how this playing out. It's ridiculous. It would have been the decision of many for him to be there and I don't understand the comment that he is not cut out for dressage....you just can't say that on the basis of a couple of appearances in a situation so far removed from what he is used to. Yes, things could have been managed differently, but FGS, this is getting out of hand now. The horse is healthy and being cared for very very well. That's what I care about more than a situation not possibly being handled as well as it could but none of us are perfect!

 

[glamourpuss]

because anyone who knows anything about LC,yogi and clive, and understands the politics of having horses with riders..........will know the horse will stay!

PS is right.

I'm intrigued what they will do with him now in terms of the PR stuff. Surely they can't ignore the fall out from this but I know they will still want to carry on with the public displays and, I should imagine, would be keen to show that it was a one off or just a bad day.

 

[_GG_]

PS is right.

I'm intrigued what they will do with him now in terms of the PR stuff. Surely they can't ignore the fall out from this but I know they will still want to carry on with the public displays and, I should imagine, would be keen to show that it was a one off or just a bad day.

I personally really hope they do.

 

[jellybaby2]

I do think a ROR display would have been better- someone like whatcanyasay that is used to that atmosphere, or perhaps an appearance from NMT and Fig...?!

It would have early shown the different stages if training a dressage horse, and that TB's come in all shapes and sizes...

JB x

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

Fig would totally like to go on tour at Olympia lol! might only get continuous piaffe out of him, but sure as hell wouldnt be behind the leg lol!

hopefully, best case scenario, they can freshen him up and go on to further demos showing as happy and forward going again. I am 100% certain its achievable IF LC/YB/CS accept what has happened and try some different tactics work wise.

 

[jellybaby2]

If fig did do some funky moves of his own, it would just go to show that KS did perhaps have some 'happy juice' before the appearance!!!

 

[armchair_rider]

Personally I think the decision to send him dressaging was very sensible - I can't see how schooling a horse to make him supple, balanced and correctly muscled is a bad thing. Given the number of times he fell/demolished fences in his racing career i'm not sure that hunting would have been a safe thing for him, assuming he was suited to it mentally. Certainly I don't think it would have been kind to put a healthy horse, used to being busy, out in a field never to be ridden again. I'm sure he could have stayed with PN and led a useful/happy life and it's rather a shame he couldn't.

However I really don't understand the decision to send him to LC when what was really needed was somewhere low key with a rider with plenty of time for him and expertise in ex-racehorses. So I can but assume that politics was involved as is being hinted here (and yes I would appreciate an enlightening PM).

Moving on to last night's display, of which I have only seen the BBC clip. The first bit on the clip looks pretty good to me but the rest looks awful - the horse is crawling along looking unhappy with the rider niggling away at him. Why he's going like that I won't pretend to know but it would be a real shame if he was seen looking like that again.

If they wanted a famous ex-racer to do a dressage demo then why not Neptune Collonges who has been out competing in dressage and, iirc, doing quite well. Or, as jellybaby suggests, an exracer that's used to that kind of stmosphere.

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

sedatives and calmers are a difficult area to gauge..............Fig get calmers (not sedatives obv!) but its taken a LONG time to know exactly how much the day before, the morning of, and just before helps him relax but not go off the boil.

If they hadnt given KS anything previously it would have been easy to over dose by accident, and thats no criticism......................god if i had ever taken CS anywhere like that he would have been off his face on sedalin lol.

 

[Carrots&Mints]

Kauto was the greatest chaser of recent times certainly since Arkle. He was brilliantly trained by Paul Nicholls and was no ordinary horse. This Kauto at Olympia is not the brilliant Kauto I remember.

I have just watched the Newbury video and it's not a whole lot better.

I have just edited this to add, I actually feel really sorry for Laura. They are not gelling, or something. But the pressure on her is horrific.

There is even a mention in one early article that she ruled out him doing the Olympics. Those are the expectations! Not fair on Kauto or her.

They ruled him out of the olympics the day he was sent to LC as hes definitly not the horse to be doing olympic level dressage - how long has it took Velegro to get to where he is now? A hell of a long time and a life time of training! It would have been ridiculous to ask of a horse that was bred for racing to be then be trained to do grand prix olympic dressage.

Also - think they ruled out doing 3 day eventing, cross country, hunting and show jumping because when he was younger he fractured his hock did he not? Wouldnt want Kauto Star the legend the greatest National Hunt horse in recent time after Arkle to do himself damage in such a tough sport, IMO abit of dressage here and there is the best thing for him. I follow Laura on Twitter and I she regulary puts photos up of them both out hacking or one of her stables girls hacking him out or him popping a jump every now and then.

There has been a massive amount of pressure put on LC now she has one of the greatest national hunt horses on her yard, can you even imagine how stressful that could be? I think taking Kauto to Olympia with all thoses crowds so close and that atmosphere it must have been terrifing for a horse that is not used to it - talk about learning to walk before you run etc. Also, I think the BBC showed the worse bits of what happened and its a shame, go on youstube and search Kauto Star and he looks fabulous on all the videos of them both at home, even when theyve done abit when they have gone to race courses he looked a lot better than he did at olympia.

Kauto star should be enjoying his nice retired life (which from what I gather he is) and doing the odd bit of competing at low level dressage! and people should not expect to much from him.

 

[RachelFerd]

I actually volunteered my horse to take part in Olympia this year (would have been the IJF flat jockeys vs, jump jockeys challenge) which was a speed jumping relay. Sadly the IJF didn't require him (think they found some more 'proper' showjumpers for it) but I can guarantee he wouldn't have gone in their and switched off. He may have been a bit wild, but not switched off. I for one would love to see a proper ROR display of horses that are successful in their new careers (like mine sort of, or like fig) doing things well.

 

[Lanky Loll]

Whilst I'm not entirely comfortable with the BBC clips, I don't think LC has done that bad a job with him. There's plenty of photos about of her doing things other than dressage with him.
BUT what I don't get is why they repeatedly drag him out to do these displays without him actually having competed.... surely just getting him out and about to competitions would have helped him with the atmosphere? He's always going to be more at home at the racecourse events as that's his usual haunt but getting him to places like Vale View or Addington or anywhere really would surely help him get used to large areas with distractions, and help them to predict how he's going to react at somewhere like Olympia?? Having ridden a pony that went into the NEC and did a good impression of KS last night I know how hard it is to deal with in such a claustrophobic environment, but just keep thinking something was missing from his prep for them to underestimate him so badly??

 

[PolarSkye]

Personally I think the decision to send him dressaging was very sensible - I can't see how schooling a horse to make him supple, balanced and correctly muscled is a bad thing. Given the number of times he fell/demolished fences in his racing career i'm not sure that hunting would have been a safe thing for him, assuming he was suited to it mentally.

I agree fully with this.

However I really don't understand the decision to send him to LC when what was really needed was somewhere low key with a rider with plenty of time for him and expertise in ex-racehorses. So I can but assume that politics was involved as is being hinted here (and yes I would appreciate an enlightening PM).

Both LC and YB understand racehorses and thoroughbreds . . . I know that some of the NH trainers get advice from YB from time to time and I'm sure I read that LC has been known to breeze racehorses - not to mention that many event horses these days (including some of LC's) are pretty much full TBs. Politics? I'm not sure about that - but I don't think that having KS at LC's yard was such a daft idea . . . YB and LC DO know one end of a TB racehorse from the other .

Moving on to last night's display, of which I have only seen the BBC clip. The first bit on the clip looks pretty good to me but the rest looks awful - the horse is crawling along looking unhappy with the rider niggling away at him. Why he's going like that I won't pretend to know but it would be a real shame if he was seen looking like that again.

No argument from me on this. It wasn't pleasant to look at - but it wasn't worthy of some of the very harsh criticisms being levelled at LC on here .

P

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

but there are LOADS of people who understand TB's (and actually i dont think you have to have TB experience on your CV to gel with the one in front of you, just be a kind and understanding rider with 2 brain cells to spark off each other....)
Ive never breezed a racehorse in my life and neither has NMT and Fig's doing pretty well!

If they wanted him to do dressage they should have sent him to a dressage yard...................what about Laura B? No pressure to keep the ride(as financially secure no matter what), and a more sympathetic and careful re-schooling you could not get than with her and Dr B? Her horses also hack, go out in the field etc.

as i said above, i think this situation is 100% turn-around-able but its daft to dismiss politics, if there were NO politics involved he wouldnt be in LC's yard in the first place.............

 

[Perfect_Pirouette]

as i said above, i think this situation is 100% turn-around-able but its daft to dismiss politics, if there were NO politics involved he wouldnt be in LC's yard in the first place.............

This. I remember when I first heard about this and thought 'KS, a dressage horse? Well it'd have to be pretty high level dressage to be interesting to the majority so I assume he's with a top rider.' ......Then heard he was going to be with LC?! Whilst she IS an amazing rider, she is not a dressage rider and I don't see, other than political reasons, why he would be sent to an 'eventer' to do 'dressage.' That's like saying he's going to be a SJer and sending him off to Piggy French (though no doubt she would do a great job) instead of one of the Whitakers or Ben Maher?!

Just doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Lanky Loll]

Statement from RoR here: http://www.ror.org.uk/news.php#821

 

[PolarSkye]

but there are LOADS of people who understand TB's (and actually i dont think you have to have TB experience on your CV to gel with the one in front of you, just be a kind and understanding rider with 2 brain cells to spark off each other....)
Ive never breezed a racehorse in my life and neither has NMT and Fig's doing pretty well!

If they wanted him to do dressage they should have sent him to a dressage yard...................what about Laura B? No pressure to keep the ride(as financially secure no matter what), and a more sympathetic and careful re-schooling you could not get than with her and Dr B? Her horses also hack, go out in the field etc.

as i said above, i think this situation is 100% turn-around-able but its daft to dismiss politics, if there were NO politics involved he wouldnt be in LC's yard in the first place.............

But there's a difference between doing Dressage (with a capital D - as in affiliated, Advanced Medium and above) and doing dressage (with a small d - as in unaffiliated, pootling, seeing what happens). I disagree that sending him to an eventer's yard was counterintuitive in terms of his rehab - I'd say it was very sensible. Yes, if they'd wanted him to do Dressage, he should have gone to Carl (for instance) - but, really, did we think that a 13-year-old ex racer with a dodgy hock was ever going to set the dressage (sorry Dressage) world on fire? No! And neither Clive, nor Yogi, nor indeed Laura have ever claimed that that was their aim. The stated aim was (in YB's words) to ride him away and see what happened.

P

 

[Sussexbythesea]

I hope they don't do any more displays as if nothing else it was totally flippin boring!

I don't want to go to Olympia to watch someone ride prelim movements badly I can see that for nothing at my local show - hell I can even do it myself!

 

[PolarSkye]

This. I remember when I first heard about this and thought 'KS, a dressage horse? Well it'd have to be pretty high level dressage to be interesting to the majority so I assume he's with a top rider.' ......Then heard he was going to be with LC?! Whilst she IS an amazing rider, she is not a dressage rider and I don't see, other than political reasons, why he would be sent to an 'eventer' to do 'dressage.' That's like saying he's going to be a SJer and sending him off to Piggy French (though no doubt she would do a great job) instead of one of the Whitakers or Ben Maher?!

Just doesn't make sense to me.

You do know that eventers "do" dressage, right? Changes, half pass and everything at the top level . . .

P

 

[Perfect_Pirouette]

I just think all this hype around the horse needs to stop.

He had a phenomenal racing career, he's now been retired from that and is having a quiet life, pootling around doing bits and bobs. Can't we all just leave it there, why are they trying to push him so much into the limelight all the time?!

If a photographer happens to get a pic of him going nicely at a local, unafill event or perhaps a lower-level BD event then fine, but trying to market him as a ‘dressage horse’ is ridiculous and just puts more pressure on everyone.

He is not a dressage horse, doesn’t matter a jot to me or I suspect the majority of Joe Public, so long as he is safe and well!

 

[Perfect_Pirouette]

Of course I do, but they have 3 disciplines to focus on rather than one.

I can remember my dad (massive racing and KS fan) ringing me up saying ‘Who is LC then, was she one of the riders you saw at the Nationals last year?’

I said no, she is an eventer. Even he was confused.

 

[PolarSkye]

Of course I do, but they have 3 disciplines to focus on rather than one.

Yes, and one of them is dressage! I simply don't understand your point. If they'd send him to, say, Joanne Eccles - or Boyd Excel (vaulting and driving respectively), I'd see your bafflement. But they (and by they I mean Clive and Yogi) decided they wanted to see how he'd cope with doing a bit of dressage (with a lower case "d") so why not send him to someone who a) actually does dressage for a living to a pretty high standard; and b) understands horses who were bred to gallop and jump?

I can remember my dad (massive racing and KS fan) ringing me up saying ‘Who is LC then, was she one of the riders you saw at the Nationals last year?’

I said no, she is an eventer. Even he was confused.

Just because your Dad (and hundreds of other racing pundits, not to mention the wider non-horsey world) hasn't heard of LC, doesn't mean she isn't the right person to be retraining KS.

P

 

[Perfect_Pirouette]

Yes, and one of them is dressage! I simply don't understand your point. If they'd send him to, say, Joanne Eccles - or Boyd Excel (vaulting and driving respectively), I'd see your bafflement. But they (and by they I mean Clive and Yogi) decided they wanted to see how he'd cope with doing a bit of dressage (with a lower case "d") so why not send him to someone who a) actually does dressage for a living to a pretty high standard; and b) understands horses who were bred to gallop and jump?



Just because your Dad (and hundreds of other racing pundits, not to mention the wider non-horsey world) hasn't heard of LC, doesn't mean she isn't the right person to be retraining KS.

P

That is not what I meant.

I stand by MY opinion that if you are going to re-train ANY horse to be a 'dressage' horse then, IMO, it would make more sense to send them to a pure dressage rider. I am not saying LC isn't capable, she obviously is. I'm just saying that the pairing in the first instance baffled me.

As I said above ^^ I couldn't give 2 hoots what KS does really, so long as he's happy and well cared for. I think they need to stop all this high profile malarkey right now and just let him try his hand at dressage and see how he gets on.

 

[jellybaby2]

Finally watched the whole thing. With my hands over my eyes. It was atrocious riding on LC part...

 

[Maesfen]

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Give-Kauto-Star-back-to-Clifford-Baker/992962410719016

 

[TPO]

All the "KS going to Olympics" hype came from the mainstream media. The same place that said Katie Price was aiming for the Olympics and that Zara Philips races horses! They don't care and just sensationalise things for Joe Bloggs public who really don't care greatly about "horse dancing". It sell papers and is a nice story.

For whatever reasons the horse is with LC and he's doing what he's doing with the occasional public appearance. Why does he have to be "doing" anything be it affiliated or leaving the ground?

I know I can resent my horse enough because of his talent of lurching from one disaster to another and it's incredibly dishearting. To *have* to ride a horse where you can't do right for doing wrong would probably make me less than enthusiastic to speak publically about it too!

The display at Olympia was for him. It wasn't a demo of dressage (or Dressage) or an Olympic horse it was of a well known ex-racer who is now a riding horse. Dressage (or dressage) is just flatwork really and every horse does this?

I don't think LC or her camp have ever issued any grand statements about how they will be or should be doing things. Like YB said they are just riding him away and they'll see what happens; the same as any of us can do regardless of if it's a 4* prospect or an older horse out of training.

Where's the Christmas spirit people? Some of this just smacks of being mean for the sake of it. The FB campaigns are disgusting and won't achieve anything.

 

[Milliechaz]

Have to say looking at the picture on the facebook link in maesfen's post he does look exceptionally sore in front of the girth.... rubbed rore. It maybe just a really badly caught photo but ouch.