Keep, sell, loan - HELP!

[ihatework]

IDs tend to be more athletic than Shire crosses. OP has told us that this horse cannot progress past unaffiliated medium dressage. I like the type of horse, although I only buy mares, and have had 4 with Draft (Heavy horse) breeding, my IDx was way more athletic, having a longer leg to body ratio. This lad doesn't have long legs for his body. We know from OP's previous posts that he has PSSM and tbh he doesn't look sound in the video. I would suggest that he may have a poll/shoulder problem as he holds his head slightly sideways, unless he is bridle lame.

I’m impressed you know how athletic or not the horse I was selling was 😂

I’ve known a multitude of IDs and other breeds. You can generalise for sure but at the end of the day you just take the horse in front of you. Mine was smarter looking but younger and had less schooling - therefore I think the pros/cons would balance each other out.

Trust me, I am in no way saying this horse will sell for 6K to someone wanting to be competitive in dressage. I would never pay 6K for him. BUT it’s about knowing your market and what traits will sell well, and he has many positives.

If you look at my initial valuation it was based on passing a vet and ignoring the PSSM/stifle. I also noted the rhythm disturbance (polite way of saying it looks unlevel - the reason for that could be a variety of things).

My gut feel is that he would be sound for purpose in the type of home that would appreciate and pay for his good qualities. I think the wheels would fall off quite quickly if current expectations were maintained.

I have a feeling Henry will fall in his feet, he really is the type many are looking for providing he is over cow meltdown stage

 

[SpringArising]

I’ve known a multitude of IDs and other breeds. You can generalise for sure but at the end of the day you just take the horse in front of you. Mine was smarter looking but younger and had less schooling - therefore I think the pros/cons would balance each other out

You would think but that's definitely not the case...

IDs are the Connies of the 'adult' market - i.e. typically extremely over-priced for what they have done compared to a horse with the same experience of a different breed.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I

If you look at my initial valuation it was based on passing a vet and ignoring the PSSM/stifle. I also noted the rhythm disturbance (polite way of saying it looks unlevel - the reason for that could be a variety of things).



I have a feeling Henry will fall in his feet, he really is the type many are looking for providing he is over cow meltdown stage

Why would any-one value a horse ignoring known problems, especially when the owner has specifically asked for advice in valuing it? How did that help OP?
OP says she sell horses honestly and I believe her, so any prospective buyer will know about his problems either prior to viewing or as soon as they go to view, any half decent vet will also pick up anything that any of us on here can see in a short video.

If you really want a heavy horse with problems, you can pick one up on DD for less than £2000 and you can find proven ones on there being sold primarily for driving, which after all is what they are best suited for, for larger sums.

 

[honetpot]

I would sell. I have loaned and they never come back the same, even schoolmasters. My biggest fault is I have trouble selling, when you loan they come back with niggles that you end up sorting out. Sell and at least you have the money, that 'pony' is worth a lot of money what ever time of the year.
Now I just have to stop buying back the ones I have sold.

 

[honetpot]

Perhaps we could swop for my cart horse ID X two year old that will not stop growing

 

[Chinchilla]

Wow I'm surprised at the turn this thread has taken, suppose that's da interwebs for you....ycbm you seem to have made your mind up, and someone with your extensive experience & knowledge will surely do what's right for yourself and for the horse....just want to say I hope he finds a nice home because I think he's really lovely And have fun with your riding whatever horse you decide to do it on.

 

[ihatework]

Why would any-one value a horse ignoring known problems, especially when the owner has specifically asked for advice in valuing it? How did that help OP?
OP says she sell horses honestly and I believe her, so any prospective buyer will know about his problems either prior to viewing or as soon as they go to view, any half decent vet will also pick up anything that any of us on here can see in a short video.

If you really want a heavy horse with problems, you can pick one up on DD for less than £2000 and you can find proven ones on there being sold primarily for driving, which after all is what they are best suited for, for larger sums.

Bangs head on wall and exits thread

 

[ycbm]

Wow I'm surprised at the turn this thread has taken, suppose that's da interwebs for you....ycbm you seem to have made your mind up, and someone with your extensive experience & knowledge will surely do what's right for yourself and for the horse....just want to say I hope he finds a nice home because I think he's really lovely And have fun with your riding whatever horse you decide to do it on.

Thanks Chinch. (I love your fur babies!) I've made up my mind that I can't press him to go further than he is now. He's not enjoying it and I'm risking him physically to get him to carry even more weight behind given how he is built. I've made up my mind, now I've read these responses, that loaning is out and I don't want to share. I'm going to test myself about whether I want to sell him by putting the word out with my trainer, who adores him. If I get some interest I'll know then how I feel about actually letting him go.

If he could keep himself fit and slim, he would definitely be staying.

I'm not planning to advertise him, because I'd be a bit lost without him this winter until Ludo is strong enough to do more, and I'm not feeling like looking for a new horse right now, or getting used to one, or changing the settled herd dynamics.

Thanks to everyone who has made constructive comment. It really has helped with a difficult decision. I'm half way there.

 

[Shady]

Thanks Chinch. (I love your fur babies!) I've made up my mind that I can't press him to go further than he is now. He's not enjoying it and I'm risking him physically to get him to carry even more weight behind given how he is built. I've made up my mind, now I've read these responses, that loaning is out and I don't want to share. I'm going to test myself about whether I want to sell him by putting the word out with my trainer, who adores him. If I get some interest I'll know then how I feel about actually letting him go.

If he could keep himself fit and slim, he would definitely be staying.

I'm not planning to advertise him, because I'd be a bit lost without him this winter until Ludo is strong enough to do more, and I'm not feeling like looking for a new horse right now, or getting used to one, or changing the settled herd dynamics.

Thanks to everyone who has made constructive comment. It really has helped with a difficult decision. I'm half way there.

I think this is a good idea, the previous owners of my horse went through agonies trying to decide whether to sell him and because they couldn't bear to part with him he sat fat ( and probably happy) in a field for 2 years, they finally decided to test the water by doing as you are thinking of doing and advertised him . I saw the advert and went to see him knowing clearly it was a very difficult decision for them and they might not be able to part with him. I fell in love with him from the moment i saw him and the owners knew from my reaction that they had made the right decision and could let him go. We have remained great friends and i have a one in a million horse thanks to them. That was 7 years ago.

 

[Mule]

Assuming you don't need the cash, then in your shoes, with own land in case a loan boomerangs back, I would endeavour to find him a suitable loan home for a couple of years and then review. He will still be in his prime at ten, you will have more of a feel as to how your spotty is panning out, you will also be a couple of years older and (from personal experience) what suited five years ago doesn't always suit now and sometimes it's better the devil you know. This way you're hedging all your bets.

This is what I'd do. Oops, I just saw you said loaning is out. Ignore my suggestion in that case ☺️ How is the spotty?

 

[LaurenBay]

I think he sounds lovely and there will be the right type of home for him. If he can compete to a good level and be steady and confidence giving then I am sure he will be snapped up quickly. In regards to cost I have no idea, but the PSSM will unfortunately take some value off.

 

[ycbm]

This is what I'd do. Oops, I just saw you said loaning is out. Ignore my suggestion in that case ☺️ How is the spotty?

Spotty has started to 'punch' the trot when I'm riding and has the...most...amazing...canter. Not sure I want to update his thread, though, from the experience of this one (and his own, where opinions weren't requested but someone has already seen fit to say that he's unsound 😒)

I want to go back to a few things on this thread.

'Holding the neck higher'. This was simply a question of terminology. And while we all know that the carriage of the neck comes from the back end, you cannot get the back end to come through if the front feet won't get out of the way.

Henry has two completely different trots. One, his shoulders are where he carries them naturally. The pace is forward and rhythmic in this trot, but downhill with a lower neck carriage. The second trot is up and forward, but to get it, you can feel him flexing his muscles to pull his shoulders up and out forwards from their natural position, which also raises his neck. (Hence why I described it as holding his neck higher, because it is an active hold, not just a passive response to the back foot positioning) This is a real effort for him, and he is only just getting strong enough to hold it for longer than a few minutes at a time. . When he tires, he asks on each stride to be allowed put the shoulders down, and that produces rhythm disturbance, unless you hold him together with more contact than I'm prepared to use in normal life. Clearly, though, I would have to do it to produce a sales video and that insight has been invaluable.

Having to use a lot of leg and big spurs. I don't. He has been taught to be quick off the leg. The illusion of 'using a lot of leg' is, I think, because the roundness of his belly punches the bottom of my leg off his sides at every stride. The spurs appear big because they have a huge roller ball in them and are completely blunt because of that. They are only there to extend my heel so that I can give him an aid under his round belly without moving my whole leg. I use them for my convenience and finesse, he does not 'need' them

Four time canter. Yes, he will four time canter if you slow the canter down beyond the speed where he has the strength to hold three time. And I get that judgment wrong a lot, but I'm working on it.

I'm in a conversation with someone in no hurry to buy, for personal reasons, and it's really helping me to understand what I want for him. Sod's law, of course, says that this morning he found the work easier than he ever has 😏😏😏.

 

[Mule]

Spotty has started to 'punch' the trot when I'm riding and has the...most...amazing...canter. Not sure I want to update his thread, though, from the experience of this one (and his own, where opinions weren't requested but someone has already seen fit to say that he's unsound 😒)

I want to go back to a few things on this thread.

'Holding the neck higher'. This was simply a question of terminology. And while we all know that the carriage of the neck comes from the back end, you cannot get the back end to come through if the front feet won't get out of the way.

Henry has two completely different trots. One, his shoulders are where he carries them naturally. The pace is forward and rhythmic in this trot, but downhill with a lower neck carriage. The second trot is up and forward, but to get it, you can feel him flexing his muscles to pull his shoulders up and out forwards from their natural position, which also raises his neck. (Hence why I described it as holding his neck higher, because it is an active hold, not just a passive response to the back foot positioning) This is a real effort for him, and he is only just getting strong enough to hold it for longer than a few minutes at a time. . When he tires, he asks on each stride to be allowed put the shoulders down, and that produces rhythm disturbance, unless you hold him together with more contact than I'm prepared to use in normal life. Clearly, though, I would have to do it to produce a sales video and that insight has been invaluable.

Having to use a lot of leg and big spurs. I don't. He has been taught to be quick off the leg. The illusion of 'using a lot of leg' is, I think, because the roundness of his belly punches the bottom of my leg off his sides at every stride. The spurs appear big because they have a huge roller ball in them and are completely blunt because of that. They are only there to extend my heel so that I can give him an aid under his round belly without moving my whole leg. I use them for my convenience and finesse, he does not 'need' them

Four time canter. Yes, he will four time canter if you slow the canter down beyond the speed where he has the strength to hold three time. And I get that judgment wrong a lot, but I'm working on it.

I'm in a conversation with someone in no hurry to buy, for personal reasons, and it's really helping me to understand what I want for him. Sod's law, of course, says that this morning he found the work easier than he ever has 😏😏😏.

Good to hear about spotty. Glad you're enjoying him ☺️

 

[SpringArising]

Did you remove all of the videos of him from YouTube?

​

 

[ycbm]

Did you remove all of the videos of him from YouTube?

​

Yes of course I did; they weren't stolen 😂. . I don't want any more people offering advice I haven't asked for.

If I decide to advertise, which won't be until spring if I do, then I will ride him for a sales video and eliminate the faults that happen when I'm too casual about what I'm doing, or he's tired, or he's on a bad surface.

 

[Tiddlypom]

No need to hold him up off his shoulders for a sales video, surely, as you won't be marketing him as a dressage horse? His target buyer will want a nice easy relaxed horse that carries himself in a way in which he finds natural, I'd have thought.

This was my similar type competing (got placed in both tests) at Elementary at Tatton Park affiliated. He was schooling Medium at home, so at about the same stage as your chap. He wasn't built uphill either, and I'm only a RC rider who does some dressage, but the higher the list the judge, the more they approved of his way of going. It was under a List 1 judge that we'd come 2nd to Stephen Clarke on Eternal Spirit the year before. He was straight, forward and rhythmic, and tried his heart out. He carried his rather short and chunky neck in an outline that did get shorter and higher as he came off his forehand with training, but it was never dictated by me.

 

[ycbm]

This only shows how difficult it is to explain physical feelings in words 😒

Well done at Tatton. They haven't run that competition for about twenty five years. I think dressage in this country was very different twenty five years ago. I used to win a lot locally with tests that wouldn't be placed today.

I'm not looking for advice on how to ride him, thanks. I have trainers on the ground for that.


PS how tight is your flash???

 

[Ellietotz]

This only shows how difficult it is to explain physical feelings in words 😒

Well done at Tatton. They haven't run that competition for about twenty five years. I think dressage in this country was very different twenty five years ago. I used to win a lot locally with tests that wouldn't be placed today.

I'm not looking for advice on how to ride him, thanks. I have trainers on the ground for that.


PS how tight is your flash???

How can you tell how tight it is from a semi-blurry picture?

 

[ycbm]

How can you tell how tight it is from a semi-blurry picture?

The picture on my tablet is seven inches by four inches in quite high definition.

 

[JFTDWS]

The resolution of that image is nowhere near sufficient to judge how tight that flash is - zoomed in, or full size.

 

[milliepops]

Spotty has started to 'punch' the trot when I'm riding and has the...most...amazing...canter. Not sure I want to update his thread, though, from the experience of this one (and his own, where opinions weren't requested but someone has already seen fit to say that he's unsound 😒)

I want to go back to a few things on this thread.

'Holding the neck higher'. This was simply a question of terminology. And while we all know that the carriage of the neck comes from the back end, you cannot get the back end to come through if the front feet won't get out of the way.

Henry has two completely different trots. One, his shoulders are where he carries them naturally. The pace is forward and rhythmic in this trot, but downhill with a lower neck carriage. The second trot is up and forward, but to get it, you can feel him flexing his muscles to pull his shoulders up and out forwards from their natural position, which also raises his neck. (Hence why I described it as holding his neck higher, because it is an active hold, not just a passive response to the back foot positioning) This is a real effort for him, and he is only just getting strong enough to hold it for longer than a few minutes at a time. . When he tires, he asks on each stride to be allowed put the shoulders down, and that produces rhythm disturbance, unless you hold him together with more contact than I'm prepared to use in normal life. Clearly, though, I would have to do it to produce a sales video and that insight has been invaluable.

Having to use a lot of leg and big spurs. I don't. He has been taught to be quick off the leg. The illusion of 'using a lot of leg' is, I think, because the roundness of his belly punches the bottom of my leg off his sides at every stride. The spurs appear big because they have a huge roller ball in them and are completely blunt because of that. They are only there to extend my heel so that I can give him an aid under his round belly without moving my whole leg. I use them for my convenience and finesse, he does not 'need' them

Four time canter. Yes, he will four time canter if you slow the canter down beyond the speed where he has the strength to hold three time. And I get that judgment wrong a lot, but I'm working on it.

I'm in a conversation with someone in no hurry to buy, for personal reasons, and it's really helping me to understand what I want for him. Sod's law, of course, says that this morning he found the work easier than he ever has 😏😏😏.

As the rider of a naturally downhill horse I find this an interesting post that I'd like to discuss but as you've basically told me to shut up I'll leave it at that! I think the reason you've possibly felt the need to defend yourself on this is having initially described him as working at medium level, which typically would mean an established ability to collect in rhythm and maintain appropriate balance for that level of test, whereas when you talk about him in more detail it sounds like he's working at Novice level but can do the sideways.

Anyway I hope you find him a lovely new home and continue to enjoy your spotty one.

 

[ycbm]

I think it is extremely unfair to be accused of telling you to shut up.

I've had a horse I love ripped to shreds on this thread by people offering comment that I haven't asked for. I've been told I'm riding a horse which I don't understand is lame. I've had you personally make a jibe about the fact that I have been misunderstood on other threads. I've asked for people to stop offering me advice about how to ride him, because it doesn't work for me in words without eyes on the floor, and been ignored. And now you say I've told you to shut up.

Can you possibly, as I've asked you once already, cut me some slack here?









I'll apologise now to everyone who enjoys reading about Ludo and his progress. There is not a hope in hell that I'm going to expose myself or him to any more of this.

...

 

[milliepops]

...It is totally unnatural to him to carry his neck as high as he is now being asked for. . .

...
Does he need to carry his neck higher? I'm just thinking I don't tend to think about making Kira's neck higher, she's also a horse built completely wrong for her job but she enjoys her work, we tend to think about sitting behind and having the back round and hindlegs under, then the withers can come up and the neck more or less is a product of that. No skin off my nose either way, if you don't enjoy riding him then there's no point keeping him and I'm sure if he is as described then lots of people would enjoy a horse like that.

'Carrying the neck higher' is simply my shorthand for the paragraph you have written.

ok seemed an odd thing to write, that's all. Maybe that's why other people also misunderstand you sometimes.

I think it is extremely unfair to be accused of telling you to shut up.

I've had a horse I love ripped to shreds on this thread by people offering comment that I haven't asked for. I've been told I'm riding a horse which I don't understand is lame. I've had you personally take a jibe about the fact that I have been misunderstood on other threads. I was very surprised about that, you've never been like that before that I've noticed. I've asked for people to stop offering me advice about how to ride him, because it doesn't work for me in words, and been ignored. And now you say I've told you to shut up.

Can you possibly, as I've asked you already, cut me some slack here?

No jibe taken. I've pasted the whole exchange to save scrolling around. If you say carry the neck higher, and someone questions you (I wasn't the only one) and you say words to the effect of I said that but didn't mean what I said, then I don't see why you then read a perfectly good natured comment remarking that by saying one thing and meaning another, it leaves you open to misunderstandings. If I said black and I meant white, then I'd expect to get misunderstood.

I'm not sure how I'm supposed to interpret "cutting you slack" or "give you a break" if it isn't to refrain from posting any further? I had been trying to make constructive comments if you read back my other posts on this thread.

As I said, i think the training ideas you've outlined above are interesting for a discussion, which is what most of us do on this forum, but, whatever, I'll shut up/cut you slack/give you a break.

 

[ycbm]

I'll shut up/cut you slack/give you a break.

On this thread, I would be grateful. I am struggling with an antidepressant change and the clock change right now MP, and quite frankly, life has never seemed less worth living than it does right now.I have little doubt I'll now be accused of histrionics or presenting myself as a victim or begging for pity. Whatever.

 

[Leo Walker]

On this thread, I would be grateful. I am struggling with an antidepressant change and the clock change right now MP, and quite frankly, life has never seemed less worth living than it does right now.I have little doubt I'll now be accused of histrionics or presenting myself as a victim or begging for pity. Whatever.

Yes you are. If you are that vulnerable emotionally then dont post videos of an unsound horse being nagged and pulled at and expect no one to say anything.

He isnt working at medium, not even close and he doesnt look sound to over half the people that viewed the video. He looks to be struggling with the work because of how you are riding him. That is not me insulting you. I imagine the majority of people on here, myself very definitely included in that, would be unable to educate any horse from scratch to being established at medium or even ride one side of one that was established at medium by someone else. This isnt something that people think based on that one video its something that lots of people have thought for some time.

Ironically MP is competing at inter one I believe, with a cobby, downhill pony she trained from scratch, and also teaches others on non standard equines, so would have been ideal as someone for you to bounce ideas around with about him and might have led to a light bulb moment for you/ You obviously care a lot about him so resolving the ridden issues could have sorted all of this for you. I can imagine he really doesnt feel right to ride at the minute.

You have also posted fairly extensively about him having PSSM, and now thats a non issue, which seems a bit odd, considering it very definitely is an issue, and may actually be the cause of his ridden issues. Yours would not be the first horse that struggles with dressage work due to PSSM. Ironically I think something similar is what did for Leo in the end. He just couldnt sustain the work I was asking him to do and is happy as hell semi retired. Its a bitter pill to swallow when you feel they have so much potential and think so highly of them.

That isnt people having a go at you personally.

In fact people have been incredibly helpful and tactful with how they have pointed this out. Which for the record isnt how you go about things, so is especially considerate of people. But you dont seem to be seeing the same horse as everyone else.

And all of this would be pretty much a non issue if you werent planning on selling him which is why people havent said anything previously. Its as much for you sake as the potential buyer.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I hope that the flash wasn't too tight that day, I was certainly taught how to fit one correctly. My dragon lady BHSI trainer would have hauled me over the coals if she'd thought it was too tight .

OP, I'm sorry if you're feeling rough atm. I think that folk are genuinely trying to help you do the best for Henry.

 

[blitznbobs]

On other thoughts don’t do something you can’t reverse if your mental health is not on an even keel ... is this you talking or the depression and do you know the difference? I’d give it a few weeks and see how you feel once the sun is out again — plus horses sell better in the spring so if you do decide to sell then that’s all good

 

[gunnergundog]

In which case, log off, walk away and take a break. Do yourself a favour YCBM.

God knows why, but I can't quote your #114 post but this is in response to it.

 

[DabDab]

On other thoughts don’t do something you can’t reverse if your mental health is not on an even keel ... is this you talking or the depression and do you know the difference? I’d give it a few weeks and see how you feel once the sun is out again — plus horses sell better in the spring so if you do decide to sell then that’s all good

Absolutely this. Drop the schooling and just hack him as and when for a bit, take the pressure off yourself and see how you feel in a bit

 

[BBP]

On this thread, I would be grateful. I am struggling with an antidepressant change and the clock change right now MP, and quite frankly, life has never seemed less worth living than it does right now.I have little doubt I'll now be accused of histrionics or presenting myself as a victim or begging for pity. Whatever.

Having read this post and seen the video I would say hang onto him for now. It’s definitely not the state of mind to be making a big decision like selling such a lovely horse. We can all give our opinions as you did ask for them but it doesn’t mean you have to take them to heart. Go hug your horse and then do what makes you and your horses happy.