Keeping in in bad weather

[pistolpete]

Obviously if the ground between the stable and field is dangerously slippery, you can't turnout. What I don't understand is why people don't grit those areas / clear snow / use muck and clear it up after, or swap to 24/7 turnout for a few days - or, perhaps more accurately, why yards can get away with not doing them / preventing these things from being done. Some of them come at no cost other than the aesthetic, others could easily be costed to the liveries (gritting or more permanent turnout solutions).

The fact that keeping horses in for any significant length of time is normalised in the modern world - which is not comparable with historically hard working animals - is astounding to me.

And, with appropriate stocking density relative to the nature of the land, there is no reason why decent amounts of turnout should damage it. Where the land really can't support the number of horses on it, that's where smaller partially surfaced pens and tracks come in.

It's depressing that yards around here with limited turnout are investing in indoor arenas / walkers / new arenas rather than all weather turnout - because that's what owners (some owners) prioritise. Humans are very selfish that way.

Exactly! The anthropomorphism is very evident also. My pony is nice and snuggly in his lovely rug and his cosy stable. Or my herd animal is shut down and stressed while overheating in a large draughty hutch with no way of regulating its own temperature get its own food or be with its herd.

 

[Crazy_cat_lady]

Exactly! The anthropomorphism is very evident also. My pony is nice and snuggly in his lovely rug and his cosy stable. Or my herd animal is shut down and stressed while overheating in a large draughty hutch with no way of regulating its own temperature get its own food or be with its herd.

Mine clearly did prefer to be in his cosy stable rugged up in bad weather as he'd go spinning round if anyone tried to catch him!! He'd stand in there quite happily with a full haynet after certainly not climbing the walls to get out

Stabling for part of the time isn't the work of the devil, obviously you want a balance of Stabling and turn out ideally but there may be a few days that can't happen. I wouldn't want a horse that wouldn't be happily stabled either, especially in case it's needed for medical reasons.

 

[HollyWoozle]

Ours are out, out or out which is how we all like it and are fortunate to be able to do.

 

[LadyGascoyne]

Well said, the vets will be busy dealing with turn out related injuries now. Plenty of horses with soft tissue injury, bruised feet etc etc and of course the unfortunate broken leg. We can only do our best with whatever facilities we have.

Yes, mine is one. Skidding on mud because she slammed on the brakes on a slope whilst she was throwing a party with her friend turned out 24/7, and came in the next morning for the farrier on three legs. Luckily she’s ok and bounced back quickly, but given her unsoundness history I did think it may be a terminal situation.

It’s not without its risks. I’ll still turn out 24/7 when they are home but I don’t judge those who don’t.

 

[Dave's Mam]

Yes, mine is one. Skidding on mud because she slammed on the brakes on a slope whilst she was throwing a party with her friend turned out 24/7, and came in the next morning for the farrier on three legs. Luckily she’s ok and bounced back quickly, but given her unsoundness history I did think it may be a terminal situation.

It’s not without its risks. I’ll still turn out 24/7 when they are home but I don’t judge those who don’t.

I hope she's ok! Dave has been throwing some shapes with his pals, even though they have been out every day.

 

[pistolpete]

I don’t judge anyone that has to do what the yard dictates. I judge people who choose not to allow a decent amount of freedom for their herd animals who were born to live outdoors and in groups.

 

[LadyGascoyne]

I hope she's ok! Dave has been throwing some shapes with his pals, even though they have been out every day.

She’s looking much better. Horses… why do we have them

 

[Starzaan]

Exactly! The anthropomorphism is very evident also. My pony is nice and snuggly in his lovely rug and his cosy stable. Or my herd animal is shut down and stressed while overheating in a large draughty hutch with no way of regulating its own temperature get its own food or be with its herd.

Yep. I agree with this entirely.

I used to manage a yard of 300 horses with 2500 regular riding school clients. We were still teaching during the Beast From The East. When the lanes down to the fields were too icy for horses we took muck from stables and chucked it down to make a safe walkway.

People who say they are giving their horse a duvet day make my soul hurt.

 

[humblepie]

I think there needs to be a be nice as many people are working within what they can offer their horses to the best of their ability. That may mean the odd few days in because of the conditions or facilities but it doesn’t mean they are in all year round and over rugged.

There is a lot of over rugging though in general .

 

[maya2008]

If you'd asked my horses over the years, the things that matter are:
- Social interaction. They're not that bothered about turnout if they can get enough exercise and can chat over the stable walls in a barn type setup. Or even better sharing a barn or large stable.
- Exercise. Turnout they cannot run in fulfils the social interaction option but not the movement need.

I’ve had perfectly happy, content ponies who were in for medical reasons with controlled exercise and chats over low stable walls. And wired, unhappy ponies that were out, even 24/7 in larger fields, without their specific movement requirements being met. 2x sports ponies being top of that list! 12 acres of undulating ground, friends to play with, daily gentle hack …NOT enough. Current one is deliriously happy with less turnout but an arena so she can do more fast work. Equally, my 3yo native needed younger friends so has relocated to out 24/7. It’s about individual needs also.

 

[I'm Dun]

Exactly! The anthropomorphism is very evident also. My pony is nice and snuggly in his lovely rug and his cosy stable. Or my herd animal is shut down and stressed while overheating in a large draughty hutch with no way of regulating its own temperature get its own food or be with its herd.

duvet days

 

[Tiddlypom]

So much judgement on this thread from people with fixed ideas .

Nothing wrong with a duvet day if it is not safe to turn out, despite the shouty ones insisting that horses hate staying in.

My horses who usually live out thoroughly enjoyed their recent duvet day (over 24 hours standing in) during Storm Darragh, which had brought a tree down on their fence.

 

[equinerebel]

My horse does enjoy being in, but I fully accept that is because she has been institutionalised and conditioned that way. She also loves going out with her friends. I'm lucky that she's happy with both and doesn't lose her mind either way. How much of that is nature vs nurture, I don't know.

If I had my own land, I'd do things differently. As it is, I don't so I make the most of what I have.

 

[Peglo]

My horse does enjoy being in, but I fully accept that is because she has been institutionalised and conditioned that way. She also loves going out with her friends. I'm lucky that she's happy with both and doesn't lose her mind either way. How much of that is nature vs nurture, I don't know.

If I had my own land, I'd do things differently. As it is, I don't so I make the most of what I have.

Same, mine come in at night and look for in. Whether that is because they want a feed and haynet I don’t know but I want them in to dry off their feet and have somewhere dry to lie down.

Ideally I’d have an open barn they could go in and out of whenever they choose but that’s not possible with my set up, weather conditions (think roofs blowing off) and I wouldn’t trust the big horse not to corner and kick my other horse.

I wasn’t being holier than anyone, just saying my horses went out. I’m sure we’re all doing the best we can with our horses with the situations we’re in. It’s certainly why I’m on the forum, to get information and ideas from other folk with horses.

 

[TheMule]

So much judgement on this thread from people with fixed ideas .

Nothing wrong with a duvet day if it is not safe to turn out, despite the shouty ones insisting that horses hate staying in.

My horses who usually live out thoroughly enjoyed their recent duvet day (over 24 hours standing in) during Storm Darragh, which had brought a tree down on their fence.

I think you've misunderstood the point. Don’t call it a 'duvet day'. It’s a totally human concept (although it's bad for humans too). I expect your horses tolerated it, they had sufficient food, access to water and were settled in their boxes. That’s not ‘thoroughly enjoying' something that is a totally alien behavior for a roaming, grazing, herd animal.

 

[Boulty]

I think the odd day in here & there when turnout conditions are dangerous isn’t going to negatively affect the vast majority of horses but if conditions are likely to be prolonged then yards should be putting plans in place rather than having horses stood in for days / weeks on end. (Not saying it’s practical for this to be full, normal turnout but 30 mins a few times a day would make a huge difference to a lot of horses and their ability to cope)

This could be putting grit / dirty bedding/ hay / anything down in slippery areas to give a safer path to turnout or at least to the arena if they have one & if fields deemed unsafe due to extensive frozen ruts then hand walking or turnout in the arena for short periods is better than nothing at all.

If on a yard with deep snow & haying fields not allowed then again I can understand turning out for a shorter period (& giving extra hay before turnout) so the horses don’t get hungry and miserable. Not totally ideal but again better than nothing.

I’d also argue that in the space a yard could build a decent sized outdoor arena they could probably build at least 2 turnout pens that could accommodate 4 or 5 horses each with a hay feeder. Have half day turnout or have half yard on daytime & half on nighttime turnout and suddenly you can let 20 horses out for a mooch. Again not ideal when compared to a full sized field but an excellent alternative to give some outside time when fields aren’t useable.

 

[MuddyMonster]

I don’t judge anyone that has to do what the yard dictates. I judge people who choose not to allow a decent amount of freedom for their herd animals who were born to live outdoors and in groups.

I think people need to be very careful with openly judging people unless they are prepared to hear people's unfiltered judgement back in regards to their own horse care and management ...

 

[MuddyMonster]

Actually, I do believe that there are horse's that prefer being stabled in some scenario's.

The vet and other people that see him have recently commented how much happier and healthier my native was instantly for coming in at night again after a period of forced living out 24/7.

He's not institutionalised as he was bred, born and raised feral for the first few years on the Forest. He's quite capable of physically doing so but he has been not 100% happy to downright miserable living out 24/7 all year on various livery yards in various scenario's.

Because let's not forget that in the wild they would be able to chose their own herd, wander freely up to 20 miles a day and chose the most appropiate shelter for the weather etc. And yes, turn out is vitally important but moving within a 10, 20 or 50 acre field with a herd they can't choose (or walk away from) with with the shelter they are given within the perimeter of a field is not the same as living wild.

Yes, turn out is so important to me to allow a horse to recreate as many natural behaviours as possible but I also believe it's not without it's limitations and occasionally, in very bad weather or for other reasons, keeping in isn't terrible, often sensible and occasionally preferred.

In my experience most horse's accept the odd day in here and there easily enough - given enough fibre and opportunities to recreate behaviours (e.g providing multiple types of fibre, herbs for self selection, haynets in multiple positions to maximise movement etc) - but some actively prefer it when the weather is terrible, which some people seem to not want to accept. Would they be as happy living in 24/7 every day? No, I doubt it but that's very different to a few days in when the weather has been terrible.

And I'm talking as a horse owner that has generally had their horse turned out in some form - big field in a herd or small bare paddock when necessary for EMS - most days for years.

 

[pistolpete]

I think the odd day in here & there when turnout conditions are dangerous isn’t going to negatively affect the vast majority of horses but if conditions are likely to be prolonged then yards should be putting plans in place rather than having horses stood in for days / weeks on end. (Not saying it’s practical for this to be full, normal turnout but 30 mins a few times a day would make a huge difference to a lot of horses and their ability to cope)

This could be putting grit / dirty bedding/ hay / anything down in slippery areas to give a safer path to turnout or at least to the arena if they have one & if fields deemed unsafe due to extensive frozen ruts then hand walking or turnout in the arena for short periods is better than nothing at all.

If on a yard with deep snow & haying fields not allowed then again I can understand turning out for a shorter period (& giving extra hay before turnout) so the horses don’t get hungry and miserable. Not totally ideal but again better than nothing.

I’d also argue that in the space a yard could build a decent sized outdoor arena they could probably build at least 2 turnout pens that could accommodate 4 or 5 horses each with a hay feeder. Have half day turnout or have half yard on daytime & half on nighttime turnout and suddenly you can let 20 horses out for a mooch. Again not ideal when compared to a full sized field but an excellent alternative to give some outside time when fields aren’t useable.

Exactly this!!

 

[Mynstrel]

This is going to be a tin hat question, but shouldn't being able to stay in a stable for a period of time a valuable life skill that we owe it to our horses to teach them? That way, if a time comes when they have to stay in for weather/illness/injury or whatever they have the tools to cope with it and not do us or themselves any damage?

 

[stangs]

This is going to be a tin hat question, but shouldn't being able to stay in a stable for a period of time a valuable life skill that we owe it to our horses to teach them? That way, if a time comes when they have to stay in for weather/illness/injury or whatever they have the tools to cope with it and not do us or themselves any damage?

Bit of a redundant comment. Obviously horses should be trained to accept stabling but there's a very distinct difference between keeping them in from time to time for training purposes, and keeping them in for months on end because you can't be bothered to commute further to keep them on a yard with winter turnout, or bringing them in in bad weather solely because you want to give them a "duvet day", without considering what the horse wants*.

*and, before anyone else starts with their "my horse likes getting stabled in bad weather" rhetoric: you might be right but, realistically, the large majority of horses who are brought in for duvet days would much rather be out, and the owner is doing it for their own benefit. Only the minority's owners are actually listening to what their horses want.

 

[southerncomfort]

So much judgement on this thread from people with fixed ideas .

Nothing wrong with a duvet day if it is not safe to turn out, despite the shouty ones insisting that horses hate staying in.

My horses who usually live out thoroughly enjoyed their recent duvet day (over 24 hours standing in) during Storm Darragh, which had brought a tree down on their fence.

Agree.

A strong distinction needs to be made between owners who keep horses in for a day/few days because it is unsafe or the weather is too extreme, and those who choose to keep in all winter for no good reason at all.

We are all agreed that our climate has changed, and we are having more and more extreme weather events. When I moved here 7 years ago, the strongest gusts of wind during a storm were 40 to 50mph. Now it's more like 60 to 70mph.

We are all having to change and adapt and find a balance between keeping horses safe and well, and providing enough turnout.

Each and every one of us have our own unique circumstances, and how someone keeps their horse in Surrey, for example, would be completely inappropriate for those of us living up in the Pennines.

I wouldn't presume to tell them what rug to put on their horse, or when its OK to use their stable!

 

[pistolpete]

Agree.

A strong distinction needs to be made between owners who keep horses in for a day/few days because it is unsafe or the weather is too extreme, and those who choose to keep in all winter for no good reason at all.

We are all agreed that our climate has changed, and we are having more and more extreme weather events. When I moved here 7 years ago, the strongest gusts of wind during a storm were 40 to 50mph. Now it's more like 60 to 70mph.

We are all having to change and adapt and find a balance between keeping horses safe and well, and providing enough turnout.

Each and every one of us have our own unique circumstances, and how someone keeps their horse in Surrey, for example, would be completely inappropriate for those of us living up in the Pennines.

I wouldn't presume to tell them what rug to put on their horse, or when its OK to use their stable!

My point in original post was how riding the horse had become unpleasant due to yard having no desire to make any kind of turn out possible for four days. No salting even in the car park and YO telling people not to ride. It’s the lack of options left to my friend that frustrates me as he’s on full livery and she can’t always ride every day. For reference during our ticking time bomb ride neither of them slipped once on or off the yard.

 

[equinerebel]

there's a very distinct difference between keeping them in from time to time for training purposes, and keeping them in for months on end because you can't be bothered to commute further to keep them on a yard with winter turnout, or bringing them in in bad weather solely because you want to give them a "duvet day", without considering what the horse wants*.

And I think that's it. When I refer to my horse being kept in, I mean for the occasional spell of bad weather (YO's decision), and not for months on end. I would never keep in for an extended period of time as my horse would be utterly miserable.

She does quite enjoy being in during bad weather. Exactly why that is, I don't know.

 

[southerncomfort]

My point in original post was how riding the horse had become unpleasant due to yard having no desire to make any kind of turn out possible for four days. No salting even in the car park and YO telling people not to ride. It’s the lack of options left to my friend that frustrates me as he’s on full livery and she can’t always ride every day. For reference during our ticking time bomb ride neither of them slipped once on or off the yard.

Yes, that was your original point, which is valid.

Unfortunately, the thread then rapidly changed to vilifying anyone who decided not to turnout for a couple of days during a period of ice and snow.

Last week, some areas had a bit of frost and ice, some had a light dusting of snow, and some of us had several days of very heavy snowfall, strong winds that led to 3 to 4 ft deep drifts, followed by temperatures ten degrees below zero overnight.

It was absolutely miserable. But it was also impossible to turnout in the fields for two days because snow had banked up against the gates and the frozen solid.

No matter how often we dug paths and put grit down, more snow would fall, cover the path again and then freeze. It was slippery as hell and it was not safe for either me or the horses to walk on.

When I managed to get them out on the 3rd day, the snow was so deep and frozen that it was impossible for them to dig for grass. The poor mini shetland was up to her armpits and literally struggled to walk through the snow. They stood in the gateway eating hay for 3 hours before i decided it was utterly pointless and brought them in.

I offered them the choice to go in the school but they both went straight in to their stables.

So, your experience of last week's weather was completely different to mine, and judging me for my choices when I was dealing with that weather and trying to keep myself and my ponies safe is completely unfair because you were not there.

 

[pistolpete]

Yes, that was your original point, which is valid.

Unfortunately, the thread then rapidly changed to vilifying anyone who decided not to turnout for a couple of days during a period of ice and snow.

Last week, some areas had a bit of frost and ice, some had a light dusting of snow, and some of us had several days of very heavy snowfall, strong winds that led to 3 to 4 ft deep drifts, followed by temperatures ten degrees below zero overnight.

It was absolutely miserable. But it was also impossible to turnout in the fields for two days because snow had banked up against the gates and the frozen solid.

No matter how often we dug paths and put grit down, more snow would fall, cover the path again and then freeze. It was slippery as hell and it was not safe for either me or the horses to walk on.

When I managed to get them out on the 3rd day, the snow was so deep and frozen that it was impossible for them to dig for grass. The poor mini shetland was up to her armpits and literally struggled to walk through the snow. They stood in the gateway eating hay for 3 hours before i decided it was utterly pointless and brought them in.

I offered them the choice to go in the school but they both went straight in to their stables.

So, your experience of last week's weather was completely different to mine, and judging me for my choices when I was dealing with that weather and trying to keep myself and my ponies safe is completely unfair because you were not there.

You are keeping your animals safe in really difficult circumstances. Our weather really wasn’t that severe. I feel for you.

 

[MuddyMonster]

My point in original post was how riding the horse had become unpleasant due to yard having no desire to make any kind of turn out possible for four days. No salting even in the car park and YO telling people not to ride. It’s the lack of options left to my friend that frustrates me as he’s on full livery and she can’t always ride every day. For reference during our ticking time bomb ride neither of them slipped once on or off the yard.

The thing is though, the YO is also responsible for their safety and the safety of staff. So I can understand why in minus temperatures the day after rain (that's what we had) when it was super icy, turn out is stopped for those days. Ditto staff riding - although your fried might be a livery, I can see why they'd advocate no riding. You had a ticking time bomb. Imagine that times however many horses on the yard that are usually ridden by staff, odds are, the staff will be placed in more risky situations than normal that may result in injury (before you even consider injury to the horse).

I was on one full yard that banned being in the school when it was a super light frost and that was a horse-centric set up but they didn't want their school surface damaged. It was frustrating but I can see why they put that rule in (it didn't work for me so it was one of the factors in my leaving)

If I fall and break my leg turning out my horse on DIY, I won't sue myself, I can still work and my earnings are not affected nor is the care of any other horseas I just have one & I can rope in family to help. Lose a staff member for a couple of months and that has significant impact on the business and staff alike.

It's not ideal but I can appreciate bad weather is very difficult for yards. Like I said, I completely advocate horses being turned out as standard (and have left yards due to poor turn out) but the recent weather has been tough.

 

[scats]

I don’t think the odd duvet day is a problem, it’s duvet weeks and months that are the issue.
My girls are fine with the occasional day or two in if it’s icy or very stormy. Infact, the one who loves it the most is Meg, who spent the first 7 years of her life on a mountain. I have to drag her out some days

 

[Mynstrel]

Bit of a redundant comment. Obviously horses should be trained to accept stabling but there's a very distinct difference between keeping them in from time to time for training purposes, and keeping them in for months on end because you can't be bothered to commute further to keep them on a yard with winter turnout, or bringing them in in bad weather solely because you want to give them a "duvet day", without considering what the horse wants*.

*and, before anyone else starts with their "my horse likes getting stabled in bad weather" rhetoric: you might be right but, realistically, the large majority of horses who are brought in for duvet days would much rather be out, and the owner is doing it for their own benefit. Only the minority's owners are actually listening to what their horses want.

Not really from the number of "my horse hasn't been out for 3 days and now he/she is a psycho" comments on this thread - I'm not talking about forever but a few days. Same with dogs, they shouldn't be confined all the time either but a dog taught to handle being in a crate or pen is much easer to rest/rehab if required.

 

[IrishMilo]

So much judgement on this thread from people with fixed ideas .

Nothing wrong with a duvet day if it is not safe to turn out, despite the shouty ones insisting that horses hate staying in.

You've completely, and perhaps on purpose, missed the point of the discussion. Quite literally no one has said to turn horses out in unsafe conditions.

While there are numerous studies to prove that stabling horses for prolonged periods causes chronic mental and physical harm to horses, I can't say I've ever seen a single piece of scientific research that states horses living out either full time or the majority of the time suffer mental consequences because of it.