Lack of response from Y.O's and cost of extras!

Birker2020

Birker2020

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Sorry just a bit of a grumble. I’m currently looking for livery as unfortunately where I am is being sold. It’s impossible to determine how long this will take, so rather than a load of liveries all looking at the same time when it is sold I thought I would try to at least make some enquiries and see what is about. I like where I am, the hacking is amazing and it suits my boy, and they YO is very good so it’s a real shame. It’s selling as a going concern but the buyer may choose not to keep the liveries of course.

I have FB messaged two livery yards and got instant responses, one of which I have my name down for and that I was on previously but with a long waiting list (am excited) and one of which was a no go. But then there are 3 other yards that I left voicemails with five days ago that still have not come back to me!!! I feel that if this is their level of response, then would they have the same lackadaisical response to my horse should an issue arise whilst he is in their care.

I am also increasingly surprised by the extortionate prices for extras such as trailer, turn out and bring in. A £38 a week DIY livery suddenly becomes £75.50 in the winter and £62.50 in the summer due to ‘extras’. I can’t get up to the yard before work as I have to be in for 7am so would have to pay an extra £12.50 per week! Fair enough you might say, but to take an unrugged horse 50 yards to a paddock shouldn’t cost £2.50. The previous yard I was at (and my current yard) charges a fair price, and one way only, ie. Turnout or bring in and not both. One yard I rang up years ago now, said it would cost £3.00 each time I wanted a tub of pre wet hay (that I had supplied) picking up and chucking over the door (tub and contents – not even shook out!) Bring in was £2 but to pick out feet was an extra £1.50!!!! WHAT???? Menage flood lights also can get expensive, a recent yard I visited was £1.50 per 40 mins, another £7.50 a week in winter on top of the £75.50 for assisted DIY!

One yard that I really wanted to go to has no individual turnout and my horse has spent the last eight years on his own, albeit with horses next to him. I was honest and explained the situation and after a lengthy discussion we agreed that it wasn’t really fair to turn him out with others, as much for their sake as his. Although not a nasty horse I think he would just play too rough with the others. But she came across so caring and professional on the phone and my heart aches to be on that livery yard. I’ve been offered two months individual turnout until winter with no guarantee of anything beyond that which was very generous of her, but I can’t really be moving yards again so soon if nothing was available.

One YO’s response when going to see the yard and asking if the rule of ‘no horse left on his own in the field’ applied was told ‘if I see a horse distressed on its own I will bring it in’. My horse can be first out and last in at his current yard but HE KNOWS someone will be turned out or someone will come to get him in quickly, but we are talking 1 or 2 minutes tops. At this yard I visited, if the YO isn’t there to see it, or sees him initially calm (but his stress escalates when she is not looking) he could at best be very distressed or at worse seriously injure himself. Shame as it was quite a nice yard and I was thinking about it until that point, she seemed a really nice person and it was a nice yard with the stable about the same size as my horses, and lots grazing/good hacking.

I am becoming a little despondent by it all to tell you the truth. Any tips/suggestions/advice?
 
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Given the cost of extras would it not be worth looking at having your horse on part livery? This should also eliminate the potential problem of him being left out on his own.
 
Sounds frustrating. I don't do DIY livery (part/full/schooling) so can't help with extras, but turnout/bring in does take time so paying extra for that in my mind is reasonable if you are otherwise full DIY.

My part livery has turn out/bring in etc all included and all the owner does is turn up groom, fuss, and ride (though they can do more if they want!). It might be worth looking for a part livery space if you can't do mornings?

In regards to people getting back to you, I know my phone messes around an awful lot and never tells me if I have missed someone's call or have a voicemail, so I try to get everything sorted through email if at all possible (bad signal). But I do check the voicemail regularly and it is only common courtesy to reply with either a yes or no to spaces.
 
Quite common round me tbh, I found I had to decide what was really important to me when I was looking as nowhere is perfect. I ended up with a 30 min drive each way at one point (40 mile round trip), and paying the services was cheaper then driving up twice a day.

I think you have to look a little longer, it's worth making follow up phone calls to the other yards that haven't replied - no point writing them off so soon - it's easy to forget to phone someone back but that doesn't mean they are useless horse-people. e.g. perhaps your message came through garbled... it happens.

And then decide whether you really really need the extras - e.g. you can pick his feet out when you get there. Could you get up earlier to do your own morning turnout. Plenty of us are up and about before 6am regularly, needs must :) I don't have lights on the school where I am but can ride in the dawn light well enough. There's always a compromise with horses and it's usually time versus money when it comes to livery arrangements tbh!
 
I think those that don't reply are often full in my experience anyway.
I do pay £2.50 for someone to bring in during the winter, about 50 yards, no rug change/feet pick out etc just throw in it always seems a bit much but equally they have to get there and not be anywhere else in the middle of the day.
£12.50 a week to only have to go up once a day seems like a bit of a bargain to me tbh.
 
I agree, it sounds like you need part livery :)

I don't think the extra charges sound too much at all, all these little things take a great deal of time!
 
In order to push the £38per week up to the winter and summer prices what exactly would the yard be doing?
I think £1.50 for picking out feet is a fair charge, as that could wait till you get to the yard after work so it is not essential.
Many diy yards don't really want the hassle of providing services or there is not an awful lot of work and both these things make it more expensive.
Also diy means you are responsible for your horse, so it is up to you to ensure it is not left out alone if that is a worry for you, you need to set stuff up with other liveries so you look out for each others horses.
If you need the horse looked after each morning and you want someone to be about during the day to check he is not left out alone you need to be on a yard that employs staff rather than just a diy yard really.
 
Many DIY yards in our area offer no services at all, so if there are issues about getting there, liveries sort it out between themselves. Otherwise they go to part/full livery yards, with the costs as expected. YO of DIY yards cannot be expected to be there all the time to keep an eye on liveries, as they are being paid for the rent of a stable and grazing, not for their time, imo. One of the problems is that everyone wants the best for their horse, but to provide that can be very expensive, which a lot of people find difficult to understand and are prepared to pay.
 
twiggy2 said:
In order to push the £38per week up to the winter and summer prices what exactly would the yard be doing?
I think £1.50 for picking out feet is a fair charge, as that could wait till you get to the yard after work so it is not essential.
Many diy yards don't really want the hassle of providing services or there is not an awful lot of work and both these things make it more expensive.
Also diy means you are responsible for your horse, so it is up to you to ensure it is not left out alone if that is a worry for you, you need to set stuff up with other liveries so you look out for each others horses.
If you need the horse looked after each morning and you want someone to be about during the day to check he is not left out alone you need to be on a yard that employs staff rather than just a diy yard really.
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That's £18ph assuming they go incredibly slow and take 5 minutes to pick out 4 hooves. That's alot of money for what is essentially an unskilled task!
 
I've been on DIY and now on Assisted livery - I have found that DIY works well if you do everything yourself - but paying for extras regularly pushes the price up to a level that doesn't make sense (but handy to have for odd occasions/holiday). So on that basis I'd look for Assisted DIY/Part options as they will probably work out as better value and possibly more reliable.

I had the opposite problem to you when looking for livery - I will only do group turnout (not individual or pairs/3's - has to be a decent sized herd. I found loads of individual turnout but very little group especially on part livery yards.

I think you might be a bit harsh in assuming that if they haven't got back to you quickly that they wouldn't take good care of your horse. They may just not be great at admin/be full - or even be away on their own holidays! I'd make a second call or visit and then if no response after that, then yes - fair enough to write them off.

I get winter Mon-Fri turnout/bring in, muck out, water & nets (DIY weekends). In summer they are mostly out 24/7 and just checked in field although I have Molly bought in (no charge for that) and I do stable and turn out in the eves during the week. All hay/haylage and straw included for £45pw (same price all year). I do own rug changes, feet, provide and make up feeds which are put in for free. YO holds for farrier/vet for free and we get free lorry/trailer parking. That is the standard service as no DIY available. If I priced up the equivalent on a DIY yard with services it would be way more than that, probably £60ish at least.

I loved pure DIY and for 5 years was on a yard with no services whatsoever - all the liveries just helped each other. I miss that dreadfully - but I moved 70 miles away and my commute would make that untenable these days, even if I found the same local to here. As it goes I don't miss morning muck out in winter very much, but do miss the extra yard time. However I was also single then and whilst my husband is very supportive and doesn't complain - it probably suits my life better to have help these days!
 
I went from DIY to part/full livery (none riding but horse cared for/brought in etc) and have never looked back after 3 years :) The livery costs aren't that much higher for me and my fuel/time bill is lower. I found it an odd change but they yard are fab so much less stress - always get a text if something is needed or if he has lost a shoe! Plus no longer paying £15 for someone to 'hold' my horse to be shod or for the vet etc...
 
I'm on a private yard, which means if I want assistance I have to pay a freelancer to come in. She wanted to charge £10 for a 20 minute (including travelling time) visit- that would work out at £30/hour which is more than I get paid as an instructor. Her point was that frankly, freelancers can and do charge more because they can and it proves more profitable than yard work tho there is less stability of course. I've quickly worked out that with school hire and assistance I could go on full grass livery for a not dis-similar amount, however it is still substantially less than the cost of stabled part livery and as I like and can do my pony myself the majority of the time, this set up works well for me. However it's all about what is compromisable- I looked recently and could either have fab school, grazing and assistance but NO hacking, or great hacking, school but assistance extra and no storage, or the perfect set up but too expensive or too far away. In the end I went somewhere which has ok hacking, storage, assistance and school extra but off-set by a low livery cost. There is no such thing as the perfect yard (unless you have unlimited funds but for average Joe I don't think there is) so it's about working out your priorities. Sounds like assisted diy or part livery is likely to suit you best.
 
fatpiggy said:
That's £18ph assuming they go incredibly slow and take 5 minutes to pick out 4 hooves. That's alot of money for what is essentially an unskilled task!
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well yes, it would be if they were employing someone purely to pick out hooves and they did it all day.
More realistic, it's one person who has to be available on the yard all day to do the odd jobs requested by DIYers at specified times, which in all likelyhood averages a much lower hourly rate ;)
 
fatpiggy said:
That's £18ph assuming they go incredibly slow and take 5 minutes to pick out 4 hooves. That's alot of money for what is essentially an unskilled task!
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The chap that I spoke to all those years ago was just setting up the yard and we were in email conversation about me possibly being a livery. When I sent him a list of my requirements for my horse which were quite basic really (turnout, bring in, chuck a tub of hay over the door) he sent me a price list itemizing each item and other items as well. I emailed back and said I was sorry but felt he was too expensive for my needs and he replied that he had looked at other yards in the area and based his prices on that. I knew that was a lie, so I sent him a polite and chatty email back telling him how much they charged for the same thing at two other yards within a three mile radius. but still he felt he was justified in charging £3 for a tub of ready made up soaked hay to be chucked over the door, and an additional £1.50 for picking out a foot on top of the £2.00 he was already charging to bring the horse in! (On my previous yard I asked that they left my horse with legs unwashed and feet unpicked. They got the horses in at 3pm and I got there just after five pm by which time his legs were dried off and I could brush the mud off and save myself the money and pick out his feet too).

Anyway yesterday I rang the same chap (I had kept his phone number) just to see if he had found out through lack of liveries that his prices were indeed much too high and he informed me that the yard hadn't worked out and he had left and was now working in London. I am guessing it was because he was not competitive and his prices were too high which is what I had tried to tell him in the first place.

I will be considering part livery, but around here this can mean many things depending on the yard and person.
 
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fatpiggy said:
That's £18ph assuming they go incredibly slow and take 5 minutes to pick out 4 hooves. That's alot of money for what is essentially an unskilled task!
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As an unskilled task could you ask somewhere does not know one end of a horse from another to do it? I also assume whilst I am doing it I am expected to realise if there is anything wrong with the horse. Many of the owners I deal with ask me to pic out their horses feet because the horse is badly behaved or they just don't want to do it themselves, so they want someone to do the dirty jobs. If they paid full livery would be included if people want to cherry pick then they pay a premium.
 
I'm not on livery, but after reading this post I assumed that these charges were quite steep to dissuade people from just texting at last minute, to have horse brought in/let out/etc.

Friends seem to have casual arrangements with others on yard to bring in etc
 
twiggy2 said:
In order to push the £38per week up to the winter and summer prices what exactly would the yard be doing? .
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Hi Twiggy 2 thanks for your comments, but we are a bit at cross purposes.

One of the yards I have seen recently charges £2.50 each way per day. They charge 'around' £10 per week hay. £2.75 for trailer per week. The £1.50 for picking out feet like I explained was years ago when I was looking at moving to a yard so is not applicable and anyway I always used to do my own horses feet, I was just telling people how expensive £1,.50 on top of £2.00 to bring in was!

And I couldn't care less whether someone is there in the day or not to check my horse is okay in the field. The issue is that there should be a rule on every yard that NO HORSE IS LEFT ON ITS OWN. Simple. Horses are herd animals and there are not many that can be left on their own. Even if they are seen to be 'just' ambling up and down the fence line when left on their own, a horse that is unused to this kind of environment could well be suffering a huge amount of stress that could/will escalate if ignored.
 
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applecart14 said:
I will be considering part livery, but around here this can mean many things depending on the yard and person.
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I am very close to you in area. What would you consider a fair price for diy or part livery in this area and roughly how would you price the 'add on's.
 
TBH I would not pick out a horses feet for less than £1.50 .
Unless paddocks are very close to stables if you take even the minimum wage and work out how long it takes to walk to a field catch and horse and put it in a stable then add a degree of profit , because there's no point in doing it unless it increases profit not just turnover you can see how the figures mentioned in the thread come about .
I think livery owners doing DIY are entitled to make extras quite expensive as it increases the cost and hassle of running the buisiness considerably it needs to be worth their while .
 
Goldenstar said:
TBH I would not pick out a horses feet for less than £1.50 .
Unless paddocks are very close to stables if you take even the minimum wage and work out how long it takes to walk to a field catch and horse and put it in a stable then add a degree of profit , because there's no point in doing it unless it increases profit not just turnover you can see how the figures mentioned in the thread come about .
I think livery owners doing DIY are entitled to make extras quite expensive as it increases the cost and hassle of running the buisiness considerably it needs to be worth their while .
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Its all about what people are willing to pay and the feeling of not being ripped off in the process. There is a shop by us for example that charges £1.00 for three standard Mars Bars. If you go anywhere else they are 79p each! I know where I would go if I wanted a Mars bar.
 
applecart14 said:
And I couldn't care less whether someone is there in the day or not to check my horse is okay in the field. The issue is that there should be a rule on every yard that NO HORSE IS LEFT ON ITS OWN. Simple. Horses are herd animals and there are not many that can be left on their own. Even if they are seen to be 'just' ambling up and down the fence line when left on their own, a horse that is unused to this kind of environment could well be suffering a huge amount of stress that could/will escalate if ignored.
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Speaking as someone on DIY who has a horse that can't be left on its own.... it's actually a bit of a PITA if this is a rule. It creates a burden on the other liveries at DIY yards. I used to have a 20 minute round trip to my field and couldn't bring my horse's field mate in at the same time as my horse, because he was so rude and dangerous to lead. So that was 40 minutes of my day gone, because the horse's owner always arrived after me. It's one thing on a yard where there are always staff, but on a DIY yard I do believe each owner should be responsible for their own horse or else make proper arrangements. Constantly being asked to do favours is really wearing.

I've ended up with a second horse, and mine are usually first in/out so I no longer have to worry about anyone else's horse. I'd never choose to have only one ever again! :lol:
 
applecart14 said:
Hi Twiggy 2 thanks for your comments, but we are a bit at cross purposes.

One of the yards I have seen recently charges £2.50 each way per day. They charge 'around' £10 per week hay. £2.75 for trailer per week. The £1.50 for picking out feet like I explained was years ago when I was looking at moving to a yard so is not applicable and anyway I always used to do my own horses feet, I was just telling people how expensive £1,.50 on top of £2.00 to bring in was!

And I couldn't care less whether someone is there in the day or not to check my horse is okay in the field. The issue is that there should be a rule on every yard that NO HORSE IS LEFT ON ITS OWN. Simple. Horses are herd animals and there are not many that can be left on their own. Even if they are seen to be 'just' ambling up and down the fence line when left on their own, a horse that is unused to this kind of environment could well be suffering a huge amount of stress that could/will escalate if ignored.
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No need to shout but we don't all want that rule.
I do not want someone else handling my mare and there are at least 6 ill mannered horses on my current yard who would be left to just one or two of us to do because they can be dangerous.
 
AdorableAlice said:
I am very close to you in area. What would you consider a fair price for diy or part livery in this area and roughly how would you price the 'add on's.
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I can only go by past experience. I would consider £1.50 or £2.00 turnout or bring in a fair price, same at weekends. Previous yard you had either a free turn out or bring in every weekday. I think its fair to charge for picking out feet and washing legs (which I have always opted not to have). Trailer parking I am not charged at present yard, have been charged elsewhere, around £2.00 - £2.25 per week. Normally hay and straw is included in the price or it is on the yards I have been on, although I've never had straw, always opted for the free shavings I was getting at one time, I think my present yard charges a little for straw but I might be wrong.

The yard I was on for 10 years were fairly priced as is the one I am on currently. I have normally paid around £220 - £250 pounds per calendar month (depending on time of year) and more for part livery obviously which is very new to me.
 
applecart14 said:
One yard that I really wanted to go to has no individual turnout and my horse has spent the last eight years on his own, albeit with horses next to him. I was honest and explained the situation and after a lengthy discussion we agreed that it wasn’t really fair to turn him out with others, as much for their sake as his. Although not a nasty horse I think he would just play too rough with the others. But she came across so caring and professional on the phone and my heart aches to be on that livery yard. I’ve been offered two months individual turnout until winter with no guarantee of anything beyond that which was very generous of her, but I can’t really be moving yards again so soon if nothing was available.
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I think if you like the yard and YO that much and she seems willing to help you, I'd go for that one and use the two months to introduce him to herd life slowly. Keep him on his own but next to others to begin with, add a nice friendly middle of the pack type horse to his field and maybe one or two others over the next week or so and once he's settled with them, move them all back in with the full herd. Most horses will adapt to their circumstances pretty well if it's done gradually and properly. Why do you think he'll play roughly? If you've never seen him out with a herd, you don't know he will. I'd give him (and the herd) the benefit of the doubt. He'll be put in his place by them if he's a problem.

I don't think £2.50 a day for turnout is too bad. That's the equivalent of about 5 minutes of my time at my hourly rate. By the time the horse has been fed, eaten his breakfast and had his rugs changed I'd say that's about right.

Good luck with finding somewhere.
 
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twiggy2 said:
No need to shout but we don't all want that rule.
I do not want someone else handling my mare and there are at least 6 ill mannered horses on my current yard who would be left to just one or two of us to do because they can be dangerous.
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It was not intended to be shouting. I just assumed that this rule was universal and I am flabbergasted to hear that it is not. I cannot imagine being on a yard where this is not enforced anymore than its considered the norm at a yard to ride in the school without a hat on for example. I cannot recall in all my years of being on livery yards (30 years and seven yards) that it has ever been okay to leave a horse out on its own when all the others come in. Surely this is just common sense? I know there are horses that are kept on their own but these are normally private yards where the horse is accustomed to such a thing.
 
tda said:
I'm not on livery, but after reading this post I assumed that these charges were quite steep to dissuade people from just texting at last minute, to have horse brought in/let out/etc.

Friends seem to have casual arrangements with others on yard to bring in etc
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That and I think because they are not 'regular' if say you have a person on a big yard to do all the jobs requested they have to make sure they are priced so in the times where not much is being requested it still pays to make themselves available.
 
Never been on a yard with a "rule" to bring other horses in! I wouldn't go if there was. It's always just been arrange between yourselves or turn up at agreed time or put up with horses out on there own.
 
annagain said:
the full herd. Most horses will adapt to their circumstances pretty well if it's done gradually and properly. Why do you think he'll play roughly? If you've never seen him out with a herd, you don't know he will. I'd give him (and the herd) the benefit of the doubt. He'll be put in his place by them if he's a problem.

Good luck with finding somewhere.
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He was out with a herd for his first two years with me (when he was seven) and I saw how he played with them. He then got a bone chip as a result of a kick which actually went undiagnosed at first and I was told there was a chance that some nerve had been damaged which would result in permanent locomotion difficulties with that leg (fortunately this wasn't the case). I was also incorrectly advised by my previous vet at the time who said it was just a bruise, but when the horse was increasingly lame I asked for an xray which showed the chip. I was also told that if the horse had hooned around in the field it would have turned into a catastrophic fracture. This is why I stopped him going out with others.

I guess I think he would play rough because if I had been on my own for eight years and then was permitted to mix with others I would go slightly mad with joy :)
 
We don't have a don't leave them out on their own rule, though the YO doesn't like it to happen and as liveries we will all try and make sure it doesn't happen for the 3 horses that are on individual turnout (just because they don't work together, I would have F on herd turnout if I could), but understanding that it is a good 10-15 min round trip to our summer fields which when people have to get to work makes it a bit more complicated. It usually is only an issue when people do things outside of their routine, F got left on his own the other morning because the pair that are out 24/7 came in and there was a bit of a communication breakdown as if the YO had realised she would have gone and got him for me. I was a bit annoyed as he is only supposed to be walking quietly and I live on site so people only had to bash on the door :p, and I am the first person to go and get the others in if need be. But also understand that it isn't always practical for DIYers to manage it when the fields are some distance away. We've hopefully put in place some extra communication if people change routines ;)
 
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