Lack of response from Y.O's and cost of extras!

applecart14 said:
It was not intended to be shouting. I just assumed that this rule was universal and I am flabbergasted to hear that it is not. I cannot imagine being on a yard where this is not enforced anymore than its considered the norm at a yard to ride in the school without a hat on for example. I cannot recall in all my years of being on livery yards (30 years and seven yards) that it has ever been okay to leave a horse out on its own when all the others come in. Surely this is just common sense? I know there are horses that are kept on their own but these are normally private yards where the horse is accustomed to such a thing.
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Yes there are yards without the rule, at a previous yard more than once someone turned my mare out rather than deal with the horse or the owner of the horse that would have been left on its own. Then I find out and have to go back to do mine again and deal with the other handful of a horse.
As a person on diy who works with horses elsewhere I do not want to be dealing with other peoples dangerous horses on a regular basis because the owners are too scared to deal with the horses themselves. To top it off I don't get paid.
If there is an emergency at the yard I am happy to muck in but if you have a horse that cannot be left alone on a diy yard then you as the owner need to make arrangements so it is bought it with another horse each day that is not another liveries responsibility.
 
You made your choice then choose the cheapest place .
Land costs money so why should they not charge for parking trailers it's a service and they are selling services ,staff cost money the YOers own time should cost money .

I think picking a foot out and catching up are skilled jobs if you view them on a par as an experienced cattle man on a farm .
If you take say £2 for catch up .
Assume that the cost to the buisiness To employ employ someone is £10 per hour.
That's saying one member of staff takes around 11mins to get a headcollar get to the field put the headcollar on the horse get it back to its stable
But that's not factoring the profit the YOer must seek on that 11minutes to actually be running a buisiness for profit .
IF you are running a yard and need to turn a proper profit these are calculations you need to know unless you end up not making a profit on the time spent .
A YOer should know the price they put on the capital tied up in that piece of land
you park your trailer in or the proportion of the yard rent it represents you then charge and add your percentage profit .
The problem far to many yards don't think so their costs like this .
It's the same issue that gets small hotels into trouble .
It was doing these calculations that helped me persuade one boss to close the DIY part of the yard I ran .
The killer was adding in the time I spent running the yard once I added profit to that figure there was no profit in it only turnover .
We closed it down and rented it to a single rider .
 
We don't have a no horse out alone rule. On our yard, all but one of the horses are perfectly happy out alone for a bit at the end of the day. We all know we have to get B in if he's left out (very rare as he's normally one of the first in) but we can leave the others and it works perfectly. Every decent yard has a way of making things work for owners and horses, a bit of flexibility and common sense is all it takes.

In terms of you thinking he'll go mad with joy, does that not tell you that deep down you think it would be better for him? Just because hooning around with others 8 years ago was a problem doesn't meant it would be now. I imagine it would be quite exciting for him to begin with, but I'm sure he'd soon settle.
 
We are completely DIY with no services provided by the yard owner (bar putting a saddle rack on the wall or lifting a big bale down with the forklift type things!), so work it out amongst ourselves if anyone needs anything done like bringing in or changing rugs. I must admit that it would be nice to have the option of extras - have nightmarish memories of trying to turn 2 out together in a howling gale at 6am one January morning!

My daughters pony is in a field with 1 other at the moment (will be back to 2 once the other pony is off box rest in a couple of months) and the other owner works away a couple of night a week so I do our two then and she returns the favour when she is home. There is one horse in another field who is OK being left out and his owner has made us all aware of that but the other ones would be brought in by someone (with text or call to owner) should they need to come in.
 
I think the 'real' cost of having someone available to carry out these odd tasks is not being appreciated. Assuming the yard employs someone full/part time, they have to pay NI and do a proper payroll - it is now quite complicated and I for one actually pay an accountant to run this payroll.

Regular staff are entitled to 28 days holiday per annum minimum by law. This has to be costed into any prices charged out to liveries.

Very soon anyone employing even one person will have to run a pension scheme for staff - that will cost.

So, are you expecting the YO themselves to be available, at any moment/day, to pick up the bits you do not want or are unable to do on a DIY basis? Why should they do that for no proper reward? They also should be declaring any such income for tax purposes.

Are you expecting freelance people to be available in each yard to pick up the bits that you find yourselves unable to do? Are you expecting such a person not to charge for their travel and time while travelling?

Are you expecting that all this work be done on the blackmarket? ie cash in hand with no tax being paid? That is illegal. A proper freelancer should be self employed and paying their tax etc.

DIY means Do it Yourself. If you cannot because you have work/ family commitments. then it should be part livery.
 
Goldenstar said:
You made your choice then choose the cheapest place .
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that's the thing isn't it... keeping horses is expensive :) Sounds like the OP has had a good deal in the past with bedding and hay included. But that kind of yard is few and far between... and as hinted above usually not sustainable. I bet it would make most peoples eyes water to see a breakdown of running costs/rates etc on a yard.
The alternative is to find some basic grass livery or rent a field. Otherwise, decide that you like being on a nice yard with facilites and staff available but accept that comes at a cost. It's for the YO to determine those prices, and you can either take it or leave it. I don't tell any other business what their services should cost, I just make a personal decision about whether I'm prepared to pay it or not.
 
It seems to me you are unable to do DIY if you are needing assistance every day.
That leaves you with part or full livery.
You may find part livery works out cheaper than DIY with add hoc add ons.
 
I'm on large DIY yard (40 horses) and the yard owner is non-horsey with no yard manager or staff. First livery on the yard in the morning (usually me) drops feeds over stable doors. The YO charges £15 month for trailer parking or £20 month for boxes. Use of school is £2.50 half an hour (lights included).

I have a weekday arrangement with a friend whereby I turn out for her and she brings in and feeds for me in the evening. This means I only need to go to the yard once a day in the week. If I go on holiday or I'm working away I have a couple of trusted people who have horses at the yard who I pay to look after my horse. I pay £2.50 per horse per turn out or bring in (includes picking out feet). There are additional charges for rugs changes/turn out boots/leg hosing. The £2.50 applies regardless of whether the field is 20 yards away or a 10 minute walk. I pay £5 for muck out/prepare feeds/water. There are other charges to attend vet/farrier - not sure if £5 or £7. There are a couple of teenagers who do jobs at weekends/school holidays who charge less but I prefer to pay more for someone more experienced who can deal with any issues that may arise who can do weekdays.

The yard does have a 'no horse to be left out on it's own' rule. There are some exceptions to this rule as there are some horses the owners want left out alone or can be left if others are in the field next door. This works fine as everyone looks out for each other and if I need to get two horses in from a field that is a quite a walk there is always someone who will come and help if necessary. If there is someone who owns a horse which can't be left out alone who repeatedly leaves it to others to bring in, the yard owner will have a word with them and ensure they make arrangements for someone to bring it in.
 
I've never been on a yard that has a "no horse on its own rule" but 3 of the 4 yards have been DIY and everyone would bring in a horse that was distressed as it is just common sense. Mine is a complete wally on her own - but very hard to ignore as she neighs deafeningly so she was always brought in if I wasn't there by whoever was there that couldn't stand the noise...I've always been on yards without individual turnout though so it rarely happened.

Current yard they are all brought in and turned out together in winter so not an issue. In summer there might be odd occasions where everyone bar 1 person has gone out riding and so one horse left on its own - but very, very rare. Not enough to worry about.

It is one of the reasons I hate individual turnout - completely unnatural and makes horses very clingy. My mare got a splint fracture from a field kick and we lost a year of work plus a big op - but that would never make me stop turning her out in company. Let them be horses I say and put up with the (tiny) risk of physical harm to protect mental wellbeing.
 
I think GS, sport horse and millipops have it covered.

I've never understood why people expect very cheap/free parking for lorries and trailers-if you had to park them at a caravan park if you can't have them at home, you'd have to pay. Yards don't exist to subsidise people's luxury hobby.
 
phew I thought that we were really being over charged for vehicle parking - £20 a month and the YO would rather not have them at all really.
 
All yards I have been have a no horse left out alone rule (unless owners spec say to leave, like me! My mare is too thick to notice).

However at one yard in the winter in caused a great deal of upset. One particular livery did not like going out in the dark and the mud so deliberately came down once she knew everyone else would have got fed up waiting and bring her horse in for her.

If you know your horse does not like being left out last then it is fairer to pay to have then brought in by staff than rely on the other liveries good will
 
Mine cannot under any circumstances be left on her own, she would seriously injure herself. In the past at previous yards as I don't get to the yard til 6pm (after work), the chances are that everyone else will have brought in and someone will have brought in my mare to save her being left alone. If this is the case I will speak to the liveries and see what I can do in exchange. If it means I give a livery a some money for their time a week or pay staff I do so, or if it means I muck out for them a night a week and bring in or something. I cannot put a price on my horse's safety.

I am currently on a purely DIY yard where the turnout and bring in is open all the stable doors and let them filter out and then back in. (the stable building door is directly into the field).

This suits me grand, the horses are turned out en mass by one person in the morning and someone (probably me, I haven't been there for a winter yet) will bring the lot in after work. We have a group chat so if someone needs to put out an SOS (can't make it up etc) someone will help out but it is expected that you help in return. This type of setup suits me as it is low stress for my mare and I am pants at mornings. I would rather bring in the lot every night then turn out in the mornings :o

There are no extra charges/costs at my yard, we help eachother out.

Would this type of setup suit you more OP? Not the en mass bit but maybe finding someone to "Buddy up" with?
 
annagain said:
We don't have a no horse out alone rule. On our yard, all but one of the horses are perfectly happy out alone for a bit at the end of the day. We all know we have to get B in if he's left out (very rare as he's normally one of the first in) but we can leave the others and it works perfectly. Every decent yard has a way of making things work for owners and horses, a bit of flexibility and common sense is all it takes.

In terms of you thinking he'll go mad with joy, does that not tell you that deep down you think it would be better for him? Just because hooning around with others 8 years ago was a problem doesn't meant it would be now. I imagine it would be quite exciting for him to begin with, but I'm sure he'd soon settle.
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Hi annagain would you want to take the chance with your pride and joy. If I turned him out with your horse (s) would you be entirely happy given he's not seen other horses for so long? I am just trying to be honest with people.

A previous yard I was at many years ago, there were two mares that were best friends in a herd of about 15 or so other mares. The one day one of the two pally ones went of to horspital for investigation and was gone a few days. When it came back to the yard it was turned out. Its mate greeted it at the gate, and off they went together galloping down the field side by side. Such was the joy that it was back in the herd and with its mate that it kicked out, making its mate swerve off straight into a fence, and breaking its mate's leg. It belonged to the YO's wife, and I had to run up to the yard and tell her there had been an accident and drive her across the field in my car (she was disabled) before her hubby broke the news to her. She had owned her for 25 years, she bred her.

I've never forgotten this, its always stuck in my head. That's why I know how easily a misconstrued kick can be.
 
MotherOfChickens said:
I think GS, sport horse and millipops have it covered.

I've never understood why people expect very cheap/free parking for lorries and trailers-if you had to park them at a caravan park if you can't have them at home, you'd have to pay. Yards don't exist to subsidise people's luxury hobby.
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Agreed. It is free at my yard but I've always expected to pay a fair amount - previously it's been anything from £5 to £15 per month which I didn't object to (although I could keep at home but more convenient to not have to).
 
applecart14 said:
Hi annagain would you want to take the chance with your pride and joy. If I turned him out with your horse (s) would you be entirely happy given he's not seen other horses for so long? I am just trying to be honest with people.

A previous yard I was at many years ago, there were two mares that were best friends in a herd of about 15 or so other mares. The one day one of the two pally ones went of to horspital for investigation and was gone a few days. When it came back to the yard it was turned out. Its mate greeted it at the gate, and off they went together galloping down the field side by side. Such was the joy that it was back in the herd and with its mate that it kicked out, making its mate swerve off straight into a fence, and breaking its mate's leg. It belonged to the YO's wife, and I had to run up to the yard and tell her there had been an accident and drive her across the field in my car (she was disabled) before her hubby broke the news to her. She had owned her for 25 years, she bred her.

I've never forgotten this, its always stuck in my head. That's why I know how easily a misconstrued kick can be.
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As long as it was done properly and carefully, yes. Mine are in a group of 10 and even when we have new horses there isn't a problem as it's done gradually. Mine is always the one to go in with new horses first as he's incredibly friendly and will never start trouble but will stand up for himself so I have put him in with (relatively) strange horses (they will have been over the fence from each other for a week first) quite a few times. In the 13 years I've been at my yard there hasn't been one serious kick incident. They have plenty of room to get away from each other if they need to but they rarely do. They all know their places and get on just fine.

There's a risk with everything your horse does - there was the story on here a few months back of poor Rosa who whacked her head in the stable by turning round too quickly and nearly died, you've also told stories of yours injuring himself alone in the field. As owners we can mitigate risks as far as possible but we can't eliminate them.

If you can find a yard that's as good AND offers individual turnout then great, but seeing as you don't seem able to I'm just suggesting it as an option to consider. If you take his back shoes off and manage it well there's no reason it has to end in disaster. I understand he's very precious to you but he's also a horse and they have managed to sort their herd dynamics out for centuries so there's no reason he won't fit into a herd given time to settle.
 
I have no problems with my horse going in with others, even if they haven't seen another horse in a while. Done carefully I see no problems but then I do like them to have mates. I have infact volunteered my horse on multiple occasions as "nanny" for mares, geldings, weanlings etc. she is prefect for this - she doesn't bully but won't be bullied/chased, never kicked out or attacked and is quite calm in the field.

I'd rather my horse reached 25 with mates then had a life only sniffing over the hedge. She's a sociable bird :D But then that is my own personal preferance, each to their own.

The trouble is that in your situation it is going to come down to "something's got to give". It is completely your choice as to what that thing is. I know you have had injury etc with your horse so herd turnout may be a huge worry for you but done right I think it will be ok. :)

I have been in your position of trying to find a yard due to closure in an area with very few yards, and I had to give up an arena on two occasions as apart from that the yards suited my horse. I've found another yard with an arena but its only DIY (other yards it was YO's full time job if you see what I mean?) so I am at the mercy of the kindness of others if something happens and I need a hand one day instead of just paying YO to do it.
 
applecart14 said:
I can only go by past experience. I would consider £1.50 or £2.00 turnout or bring in a fair price, same at weekends. Previous yard you had either a free turn out or bring in every weekday. I think its fair to charge for picking out feet and washing legs (which I have always opted not to have). Trailer parking I am not charged at present yard, have been charged elsewhere, around £2.00 - £2.25 per week. Normally hay and straw is included in the price or it is on the yards I have been on, although I've never had straw, always opted for the free shavings I was getting at one time, I think my present yard charges a little for straw but I might be wrong.

The yard I was on for 10 years were fairly priced as is the one I am on currently. I have normally paid around £220 - £250 pounds per calendar month (depending on time of year) and more for part livery obviously which is very new to me.
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Trailer/lorry parking at mine is £13/£18 a month. Bring in, pick feet out, feed and give hay is £2.50 (incredibly reasonable) and £3 with a rug change. I think your expectation of hay/straw is unreasonable unless you are willing to pay £40-45 a week as a basic charge. Here, stable and grazing will cost £120-140 a month with no hay/straw included.
 
The problem seems to be what you consider to be reasonable value.

You either adjust what you think is reasonable and move to the yard, or you go somewhere else cheaper.

Personally I think £2 for a bring in is perfectly reasonable. If it takes 15 mins to turnout you can only do 4 horses an hour, if they are all in different field. A yard I was at used to be £5 for bring in rug change (which I never do anyway) and pick out feet.

Re the floodlights "Menage flood lights also can get expensive, a recent yard I visited was £1.50 per 40 min". If you're DIY then you're only paying for a stable and a field space. I would expect any extras to have to be paid for, unless you have a VERY generous yard owner.

Do these yards include poo picking? Field maintenance is always a big concern for me, and personally (although I don't consider these charges to excessive) i'd be prepared to pay if the field we're well fenced, poo picked, harrowed and rolled appropriately. Good grazing all year can save a fortune on hay and hard feed.
 
applecart14 said:
It was not intended to be shouting. I just assumed that this rule was universal and I am flabbergasted to hear that it is not. I cannot imagine being on a yard where this is not enforced anymore than its considered the norm at a yard to ride in the school without a hat on for example. I cannot recall in all my years of being on livery yards (30 years and seven yards) that it has ever been okay to leave a horse out on its own when all the others come in. Surely this is just common sense? I know there are horses that are kept on their own but these are normally private yards where the horse is accustomed to such a thing.
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Its funny, I had my horses at a big DIY yard, with this rule, and it was enforced. And mine were not happy to stay out alone. I had two horses and two stables, and was fine.

Now at a tiny yard, and my two have own field. Both will both pretty much go out and stay out alone. Amazed me. I did work on separation as they are a pair bond, and stabled by themselves, next to each other.
 
galaxy said:
All yards I have been have a no horse left out alone rule (unless owners spec say to leave, like me! My mare is too thick to notice).

However at one yard in the winter in caused a great deal of upset. One particular livery did not like going out in the dark and the mud so deliberately came down once she knew everyone else would have got fed up waiting and bring her horse in for her.

If you know your horse does not like being left out last then it is fairer to pay to have then brought in by staff than rely on the other liveries good will
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Not all small DIY yards have staff though, hence we just try to communicate. Most out in pairs seems to work well as it is always possible to bring two in together without any extra effort from anyone. we've never had a situ of anyone taking the pee though and when my field sharer was always down first in the morning I would always say either happy to pay or return favours
 
I am always perplexed by these threads that livery costs are "ridiculous" .
For some reason people think that us livery yard owners are making a fortune over charging people where in actual fact we are doing well if we break even.

I am not sure why people think we should do tasks such as catching, hoof picking, rug changing for less than the cost of a Starbucks coffee?

Whatever the staff do we still have to pay them minimum wage to be there if not more.

I don't think people quite get the overheads involved with running a decent yard and the hours put in.

Just for starters with costs..
Rent/mortgage
Electric
Water
Business rates
Insurance for yard
Insurance for staff
Accountant costs
Costs for breakages
Staff wages
Loo roll!!!!
Cess pits emptied
Fuel for tractors etc
Insurance for tractors ext
Purchasing of show jumps which everyone uses
Replacing broken tools and equipment
Replacing broken fencing
Staff training
The list is endless

It is not a money making enterprise, most of us do it for the love of it I can assure you!
 
I think it sounds like you want part livery at DIY prices. Bear in mind that it's incredibly difficult for a YO to make any money out of DIY. They have to employ people, with all that entails, manage and maintain the land, the fencing, the stables etc etc and on top of that have pretty expensive insurance.
 
OP, i think £2.50 to £3 to bring in is perfectly reasonable.

Example: Yard has staff, poss paying 10 per hour to freelance groom. Jobs planned to allow staff to complete in 3 hrs, then YO is presented with an extra horse which could well take the groom 10 mins or more away from the work planned. Overtime needs to be paid, no extra £'s for yo tho.

Parking? Why not charge?
 
I used to charge fellow liveries £2.50 for feed, bring in/turn out & rug change if needed.

But to be frank, it's not about the number of steps I took to achieve the task, or whether there was a rug to change or not: £2.50 is absolute peanuts for knowing that I would, 100% without fail, be there at the same time each day to look after their horse as if it were my own.

Which also means having built in enough time so if anything was wrong, I would sort it out.

ETA this was a DIY yard.
 
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I don't offer DIY for most of those reasons. People don't like costs for doing things. "I can do that myself" - yes I'm sure you can and that's why you rent the stable and field. If you can't get there or don't want to get up early mornings then you need to pay someone to do it. Why should they not get paid properly?

It costs me £10 an hour to have a freelancer cover my Thursday afternoons when I teach for most of the day over an hour away. I hire them for 3 hours. That's £30 every week just on one shift.

My yard is small so I don't need a full time groom, but I do need cover and they get paid for the hour whether they do anything or not. So if you're on a DIY yard that has a member of staff - they'll be getting paid by the hour, not by the job. They also don't have the whole evening to do stuff - so to catch a horse can take anything from 5 minutes to 20 minutes and you are being charged £2 for that, then rug changes - some horses are difficult and fidgety, sometimes you'd have to dig a rug out because the person covering for you does not do your horse all the time, they have no idea where the stuff is, they have to dig around, tbh I'd probably charge at least another £1 for rug changes, if not more, they take time and so does finding somewhere to put a sopping wet rug. Picking feet out - again, more skilled than you think and some horses are real pigs with their feet.

On my yard (part, full, schooling only) I know where everything is, I put all the rugs in the same place, all the grooming kit in one place, all the tools in one place etc so I can grab a fork in no time at all.

I used to freelance groom and I never took a job at less than £10 an hour, and £15 for a single hour. I have to cover my personal insurance, fuel, business things like tax and NI and it wasn't worth it to go for less. I spent 3 hours a morning for a while temping at a stud. I mucked out 6 boxes in 1.5 - 2 hours, hay/haylage everything (about 20 horses) brought in 4, turned out 4, whacked new haybales in the steamer, bathed anything that needed bathing, washed off the legs of everything that came in, swapped rugs for them, swapped rugs for those going out, washed all the waterers, swept everything, lugged bales around. If you take that - I got paid £30 for 3 hours - if we transfer that to DIY "helping" then I would have got paid more per horse but I wouldn't have made more money. As 1 horse would have paid me about £9. But at a DIY "helping" someone, I'd be doing 1 horse, travelling there and to the next place/back home and I'd make a loss on my hourly rate. Not to mention the travel time.

If someone is hired for the full day then they should be decent and can fully muck out a stable in 20 minutes. Generally people don't have more than 6 to muck out (unless minimal beds) so that's 2 hours. Then assuming they are working leisurely as no rush to go anywhere, half an hour to hay and replace any hay in steamers/soaks/etc, half an hour to an hour to turnout/bring in depending on how far away the fields are, that's 3 - 3.5 hours. But they've been hired for the whole day - so 7.30 to 5 for eg with a half hour/hour for lunch, that's 8-9 hours. They've done all of their horses in 3. And you've probably got another hour or so in the afternoon to bring in and swap rugs, probably no more than an hour, so that's 4 hours of work. But they need paying £10 an hour for 8-9 hours. £80 - do your DIY "helping" costs cover that? 6 horses to/bi would be £15 for the day, 6 muck outs would be £30, 6 pick outs would be £9, that's £54. Haying at £1 takes you to £60. YO is losing £20. And that is assuming that that day all 6 horses that groom is in charge of ask for assistance, and assistance for everything, but it's a DIY yard, so people do everything themselves unless they ask for assistance - the status quo is no help unless urgent. Actually doing those 6 horses, that's a best case scenario.

To be honest, at £10 an hour you're working for 16p a minute, a job that takes 10 minutes will cost £1.60, 30 minutes £4.80 ish. When you break it down, the costs don't seem that unreasonable. That money goes straight to the groom, nothing to the YO, so your £1.60 job may cost £2 so the YO can make 40p. It's not unreasonable. Especially when you add in what you would be happy being paid an hour. No wonder grooms in the UK have a hard time, no-one wants to pay them!
 
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MotherOfChickens said:
I think GS, sport horse and millipops have it covered.

I've never understood why people expect very cheap/free parking for lorries and trailers-if you had to park them at a caravan park if you can't have them at home, you'd have to pay. Yards don't exist to subsidise people's luxury hobby.
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Well said!
 
ester said:
Not all small DIY yards have staff though, hence we just try to communicate. Most out in pairs seems to work well as it is always possible to bring two in together without any extra effort from anyone. we've never had a situ of anyone taking the pee though and when my field sharer was always down first in the morning I would always say either happy to pay or return favours
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Yes but op is looking for a yard where services are available. If she doesn't want her horse out by himself, it's fairer to pay to have the horse brought in than rely on other liveries.

The yard I mentioned never had an issue for years either, until that one person and it really created friction at the yard.
 
I'd be seriously miffed to be on a yard with a 'no horse left out rule' if it involved liveries having to bring the last horse in. If your horse is a stress head then I think it's your responsibility to pay to have it brought in at a sensible time every day.
 
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