Lack of response from Y.O's and cost of extras!

[Achinghips]

I am always perplexed by these threads that livery costs are "ridiculous" .
For some reason people think that us livery yard owners are making a fortune over charging people where in actual fact we are doing well if we break even.

I am not sure why people think we should do tasks such as catching, hoof picking, rug changing for less than the cost of a Starbucks coffee?

Whatever the staff do we still have to pay them minimum wage to be there if not more.

I don't think people quite get the overheads involved with running a decent yard and the hours put in.

Just for starters with costs..
Rent/mortgage
Electric
Water
Business rates
Insurance for yard
Insurance for staff
Accountant costs
Costs for breakages
Staff wages
Loo roll!!!!
Cess pits emptied
Fuel for tractors etc
Insurance for tractors ext
Purchasing of show jumps which everyone uses
Replacing broken tools and equipment
Replacing broken fencing
Staff training
The list is endless

It is not a money making enterprise, most of us do it for the love of it I can assure you!

This. And if you note, not even topping, fertilising, reseeding, aerating, harrowing field and manège, liming, removing muck heap and treating moss, as well as the price of the equipment and maintenance of it is included in the estimate!

 

[honetpot]

YorksG

If you can honestly say hand on heart that you think that £3.50 to bring a horse in from a field (leave its rug on) and just pick out its feet is a good price here in the Midlands, and if you can honestly say that you would be happy to pay £3.00 for someone to throw a tub of wet hay (already bought from the yard and pre-wet by the yourself) and not even emptied out of the tub onto the floor but just dumped on top of the bed- then so be it, but I can't see how it should come to a surprise that most people would see that as a little pricey. That was all I was saying.

Oh, and none of the three YO's who I left messages have come back to me, two I left a second message with yesterday.

I am staying where I am until such time notice is given to us all and the house and yard is sold.

You just do not get it do you.
I used to sell posh coffee, the coffee beans, cup, lid,milk sugar,cost at the time 7p. Then you have to cover overheads,staffing rent,equipment, insurance. You have to pay these what ever, if you not charge enough to cover these and make a profit you make a loss and close the shop. Even if someone is selling coffee cheaper than you, you can not reduce your price because you will lose money.

Starbucks and Costa, they must buy so much coffee that the cup and the coffee that it probably still does not cost them much more than 7p , but you will pay over £2 and cup because their shops are where you want them and open when you want them.

So I employ a groom or make time to do the jobs you do not want to do, at say £10per hour, so I have to find four people to have jobs done at £2.50 or I have lost money on that hour, the DIY part of your livery should pay for the rent of the stable and grazing. As someone else has pointed out if its a farm they may have to charge VAT one the whole of the livery if they provide services and have care and custody insurance. The £3 you are charged is what the YO considers enough money to make it worth there while stop what they are doing and do that job. They probably do not want to do it. Builders quote you the earth if they do not want a job, if you take the quote they think its worth the trouble.
I think you have been lucky where you are and may continue to be lucky , there are a lot of YO/YM who do not work out their costing properly.
As to people getting back to you, its very busy time of year, most of the people I know are out till dark getting hay and stacking it if you have any amount of horses.

 

[popsdosh]

On the general topic or DIY vs. assisted DIY ...

I think (and am sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong!) that many yards are purely DIY and don't offer extras because they are part of a farm and are allowed to rent out livery space for DIYers ... but these days, if they start offering 'services' (even turning a horse out) their business rate would change?

If this is true, I presume if a yard does offer assisted livery places or charge 'extras', they're either banking on no one saying anything, or have registered a change of use with the local authority along with gaining any relevant permissions ...

May well be wrong, but just mulling it over ...

VAT as well

 

[Birker2020]

Dont you know they are sitting about doing nothing ,waiting for the next opportunity to earn a few pence!!

You can try and get a rise from me and take the p**s as much as you want. I know why you are doing it and I find it very tiring. I will stick by my earlier statements. I try and get value for money. If I can't find it I will go to a yard that can give it me and I have been lucky enough to have been on yards that are good value for money in the past and at the moment too. I really don't want to leave where I am, the horse is very happy there, and the hacking is amazing. The only reason I am looking is because I fear that if the new buyer already has horses they will not run it as a going concern. Its hard enough finding livery for one, finding livery for one when there are nine others would be a total nightmare.

 

[YorksG]

You can try and get a rise from me and take the p**s as much as you want. I know why you are doing it and I find it very tiring. I will stick by my earlier statements. I try and get value for money. If I can't find it I will go to a yard that can give it me and I have been lucky enough to have been on yards that are good value for money in the past and at the moment too. I really don't want to leave where I am, the horse is very happy there, and the hacking is amazing. The only reason I am looking is because I fear that if the new buyer already has horses they will not run it as a going concern. Its hard enough finding livery for one, finding livery for one when there are nine others would be a total nightmare.

The fact that you find it difficult to find "value for money livery", suggests that your "value for money" does not match the YO idea of appropriate renumeration for their time and effort.

 

[Birker2020]

I try and get value for money. If I can't find it I will go to a yard that can give it me and I have been lucky enough to have been on yards that are good value for money in the past and at the moment too. .

The fact that you find it difficult to find "value for money livery", suggests that your "value for money" does not match the YO idea of appropriate renumeration for their time and effort.

??????? I just said 'I have been lucky enough to have been on yards that are good value for money in the past and at the moment too' so not sure how you reach that weird conclusion Yorks G but then when has being misquoted ever been a crime on this forum

I'm not going to add any further to this post as there is really little point when people don't bother to read what I have written.

 

[YorksG]

??????? I just said 'I have been lucky enough to have been on yards that are good value for money in the past and at the moment too' so not sure how you reach that weird conclusion Yorks G but then when has being misquoted ever been a crime on this forum

I'm not going to add any further to this post as there is really little point when people don't bother to read what I have written.

Just to point out your ommission, read what you put about finding livery being a nightmare, selectively quoting isn't helpful imo

 

[indie1282]

I really don't get what the point of this post is? Correct me if I'm wrong but it sounds like you need extras but you only want to pay what you think is a fair price?

Nothing wrong with that in theory BUT a yard covers its expenses by charging for livery, extras etc...a price that is agreeable to their current liveries who are obviously happy to pay it. The fact that you don't think its a fair price is irrelevant really as they are not going to change the price just for you - you either pay what they ask or look for another yard.

Ultimately YOs dont actually need to justify their pricing - they have a service that other people want and at the end of the day they can charge what they like!

And you keep going on about your bucket of pre wet hay that you would have been charged £3.00 for - the yard failed, probably because he was charging too much- but you chose not to go there because it was too expensive. So why is that relevant?

 

[Birker2020]

Just to point out your ommission, read what you put about finding livery being a nightmare, selectively quoting isn't helpful imo

Only because everyone is full and not because of my criteria. You are just choosing to argue for the sake of it, not because you have a valid statement to make.

Indie its relevant because when I suggested (how dare I????) that some people charge a lot for livery, I gave this as an example when I was shot down in flames for being so ridiculous.

 

[conniegirl]

I'd be seriously miffed to be on a yard with a 'no horse left out rule' if it involved liveries having to bring the last horse in. If your horse is a stress head then I think it's your responsibility to pay to have it brought in at a sensible time every day.

sorry but I disagree. I was at one yard where there wasnt a rule about no horse left alone, I tried to make sure I was always up there as soon after work as I could and my horse was never left out alone, there was no option for buying services from YO or anyone else. one day in winter everyone else on the yard (I was the only one working) decided to bring thier horse in 3 hours earlier than normal and didnt let me know, which meant that as I was at work, unaware and unable to leave anyway my horse was left on his own for 3 hours, by the time I got there he had worked himself into such a state that he was soaked through with white sweat under his rugs, he had lamed himself from galloping up and down the fence screaming for the others. It took me 4 hours to get him dried off again and to stop the break through sweating, he then coliced and I had an enormous vet bill.
The poor lad was totaly traumitised and went from a pony who could be left on his own for between 30 mins and 45 mins to a pony who paniced as soon as anyone else started bringing in horses.

Unsuprisingly I left that yard rapidly and would NEVER go to a yard where horses are left out on thier own.


I'm on assisted DIY currently, I pay £20 for rent of stable, field and use of the school. £10 a week for monday to friday turnout and bring in (no rug changes, no picking out feet) £8 a week for hay and I have to buy my bedding from YO.
My YO will give each horse a cursory once over as she brings them in and deal with emergancies but other then that it is pure DIY.

 

[AdorableAlice]

There is a common theme running through this thread, and I ask the question why do so many horse owners fail to teach their horses to be able to be left alone in a paddock or in the yard.

All the grief and angst that is being detailed could be avoided by simply teaching the horse something so simple.

 

[milliepops]

There is a common theme running through this thread, and I ask the question why do so many horse owners fail to teach their horses to be able to be left alone in a paddock or in the yard.

All the grief and angst that is being detailed could be avoided by simply teaching the horse something so simple.

I'd agree if it were that simple - problem is some of them unlearn it quite easily! My older mare was always *completely* independent until she had to do box rest alone due to circumstances out of my control. Now if she's left alone she tears around until she injures herself. Jumps out onto the road, the works. At the age of 19 with (i desperately hope) more years together, I choose to manage that rather than let her keep breaking herself. One day she'll be so broken the only treatment will be a bullet and neither of us want that!

But it's my responsibility to manage that, no one else needs to get involved I'm not totally precious, the other can be left, she's just a bit noisy to start with and eversohappy to see her pal return.

 

[Mongoose11]

sorry but I disagree. I was at one yard where there wasnt a rule about no horse left alone, I tried to make sure I was always up there as soon after work as I could and my horse was never left out alone, there was no option for buying services from YO or anyone else. one day in winter everyone else on the yard (I was the only one working) decided to bring thier horse in 3 hours earlier than normal and didnt let me know, which meant that as I was at work, unaware and unable to leave anyway my horse was left on his own for 3 hours, by the time I got there he had worked himself into such a state that he was soaked through with white sweat under his rugs, he had lamed himself from galloping up and down the fence screaming for the others. It took me 4 hours to get him dried off again and to stop the break through sweating, he then coliced and I had an enormous vet bill.
The poor lad was totaly traumitised and went from a pony who could be left on his own for between 30 mins and 45 mins to a pony who paniced as soon as anyone else started bringing in horses.

Unsuprisingly I left that yard rapidly and would NEVER go to a yard where horses are left out on thier own.


I'm on assisted DIY currently, I pay £20 for rent of stable, field and use of the school. £10 a week for monday to friday turnout and bring in (no rug changes, no picking out feet) £8 a week for hay and I have to buy my bedding from YO.
My YO will give each horse a cursory once over as she brings them in and deal with emergancies but other then that it is pure DIY.

No horse would ever be left out at our yard especially if it was getting itself in to a state - that's just cruelty. However, a 'rule' means there is always one that takes advantage. We don't have it as a hard and fast rule and suddenly everyone takes responsibility for their own horse and it's behaviours or pays for services.

We're not idiots and it seems your lot were.

 

[Damnation]

There is a common theme running through this thread, and I ask the question why do so many horse owners fail to teach their horses to be able to be left alone in a paddock or in the yard.

All the grief and angst that is being detailed could be avoided by simply teaching the horse something so simple.

I tried to teach her to be left in the field on her own... it just wasn't safe for anyone. She is fine in the stable and on the yard. She is fine turned out first but the second something is taken away from her that is the trigger and it just isn't safe. But then she is brill to handle and I am happy to pay someone or bring someone else's in so I don't see the huge issue. If it because a massive issue I would buy/loan a companion.

Last one was a gem and just didn't give a stuff

 

[ester]

Frank's fine to go out on his own. When everyone else gets pulled in at what he deems around breakfast time including the ones that generally stay out 24/7 so are always there he goes Welsh. It's tricky to stop him being welsh , or a horse and therefore hardwired to want a herd. I don't think it helps the sense of abandonment that our summer fields are some distance away- it also means anyone on the yard cannot see if there is an issue (which is why he did get abandoned a couple of weeks ago, it isn't the end of the world but he doesn't need to get that wound up at his age and he is supposed to be being quiet due to a leg swelling.)
So do let us know the magic technique AA, especially when one is limited by a yard set up (it wasn't an issue at home as everything was in one place rather than down the road and round the corner) and didn't get the beast as a youngster so some things will have been learned already and are always more difficult to unlearn.


the arab on the yard has a mirror in her field which somewhat embarrassingly helps!

Though I don't think we actually have any 'rules' just that unless otherwise instructed all of us would worry about abandoning one.

 

[indie1282]

My two have always been kept together since they were babies but I can leave them each on their own - it obviously helps that ive been able to separate them regularly since they were small. My grey wouldn't even notice if he was left on his own! My other horse is a bit shouty but all mouth and no action really....

I do feel sorry for people who cant leave their horses alone :-( but if its an inherited issue then it must be quite difficult to break that habit.

 

[Birker2020]

There is a common theme running through this thread, and I ask the question why do so many horse owners fail to teach their horses to be able to be left alone in a paddock or in the yard.

All the grief and angst that is being detailed could be avoided by simply teaching the horse something so simple.

Gosh that is a bit of a condescending statement AA. Its not a case of 'failing to teach your horse to be left alone in a paddock'. Its not having the opportunity or the requirement to do so. In winter they go out for two hours at a time in a sandpit (because the land is peat based and boggy so no winter turnout in the fields). I have often turned him out during the summer for a roll after a ride in the sandpit whilst I skip out or before he has his tea and then goes out in the field. He is fine for half an hour or so in there, but looks uncomfortable and unhappy nevertheless. The pet pigs go in there overnight and he detests pigs. He is never completely at ease on his own, never has been. But then he is quite a spooky type of horse anyway.

In the summer they come in at 6 or 7am after being out overnight. I work some Saturday or Sundays (when I say work - what I mean is that I will feed all the horses, change rugs and turn them out/or bring them in and feed them depending on the time of year for the YO free of charge when its my turn - we take it in turns as the YO doesn't do weekends). Then I would have the opportunity to leave my horse out when I got all the others in. He is fine for about three minutes then he will start pacing up and down. Then he starts calling out. Although he is not unduly 'stressed' he is nevertheless worrying needlessly. The YO said the other day he is the only horse who can go out first and come in last and not be stupid and he won't be for a while, but there is a limit on this and we are talking minutes and not hours.

And he isn't silly because HE KNOWS that he will be brought in. He always has been, he has never been let down. He knows that very soon there is someone that will come for him and of that there is no question. Because he trusts us to not let him down he does his best for us by 'trying' to stay calm, but it is pitiful to see him so worried, but trying his best to not be.

So you see I don't really see the point of teaching him to stay out because the yard owner wouldn't leave him out as the rule is no horses left on their own. Its been this rule on all the yards I've ever been on. There is no reason for him to be out on his own. I hate the thought of him unhappy, or anxious. I know how that feels and for me its the worst feeling in the world.

Over the years of being on yards I have found that there are a lot of horses that are fine going out on there own for a short amount of time. There are others that are fine for longer periods. But in general, once horses are then added, left for a period of time and then brought in and the herd starts to decrease there will be a general stirring and a feeling of vulnerability that is obvious from a prey animals point of view. This applies whether the horse is in a individual paddock next to others, or is with others in a herd situation.

 

[9tails]

Is your blood presure really high at the moment, Applecart? Because you're taking offence to pretty much every post on this thread. You just need to find somewhere that will cater to your needs, if tardy return of phone calls gets up your nose then that yard ain't going to work for you.

 

[Birker2020]

Is your blood presure really high at the moment, Applecart? .

Not at all 9tails. But it was a bit of a patronising comment to make. Tarring everyone with the same brush hardly works in real life.

 

[AdorableAlice]

I will reword my comment.

It is a pity that people like me, breeders and producers of young horses do not take the time to teach a young horse to live alone.

The very basic grounding for a young horse should be - accept being alone, be correctly halter broken, tie up and be mannerly.

If the breeder and/or producer puts this in the young horse is set up for life. subject of course to finding itself in the right hands as a mature horse.

 

[WeeLassie]

That's £18ph assuming they go incredibly slow and take 5 minutes to pick out 4 hooves. That's alot of money for what is essentially an unskilled task!

I think PROPERLY picking out 4 hooves (including putting on headcollar and tying up) would take at least 10 mins. Longer if the horse was awkward, or the feet were very muddy. So that would make it £9 an hour, not much at all. And I dont think its an 'unskilled' job- ask any joe public to pick even a very quiet horses foot up and theyd run a mile.
I think the charges are very fair, OP

 

[be positive]

I think PROPERLY picking out 4 hooves (including putting on headcollar and tying up) would take at least 10 mins. Longer if the horse was awkward, or the feet were very muddy. So that would make it £9 an hour, not much at all. And I dont think its an 'unskilled' job- ask any joe public to pick even a very quiet horses foot up and theyd run a mile.
I think the charges are very fair, OP

It cannot take 2 minutes to pick out each foot, I would find it hard to take a minute to put on a headcollar and tie up, then another 30 seconds per foot to pick out properly, if the horse is awkward on day 1 it wouldn't be awkward for long if handled by a pro, a complete novice may take a bit longer but they should not be dealing with liveries that are paying for a professional job.
I am not going to comment on livery charges as I routinely do extras without charging as I want to ensure the welfare of the horses in my yard and many of the charges are in my view petty, I prefer to have a slightly higher base rate and build in a bit of my time to do the odd rug change or bring in.

 

[WeeLassie]

I think you would have to allow 10 mins from start to finish, assuming you have to get headcollar and catch horse, to do it properly. especially if mud was hard packed. And its hard work on the back. Its all the small jobs- mixing feeds, haying, picking out feet, washing legs, that all add up to time a YO may not have.
Yes, you could charge more and include exras for nothing, but this isnt really fair, as some liveries might want lots of jobs done, others mightnt want any.

 

[Neversaydie]

This always seems to be a contentious issue on all forums. AppleCart you are right to be looking for a livery that suits yourself. I have to admit I'm the same. The horse is on a budget, I can afford more but I choose not to spend more as it would mean I couldn't save as much for anything else each month.

I know England isn't the same as up here in Scotland. More competition for livery spaces and YOs have less land and more horses over all.

Everyone's assessment of what livery consists of and their understanding of that term is always going to vary. I prefer DIY as I have a bit of OCD about how I keep my horses so I wouldn't go to a part or full livery only yard. Extras are nice but not a necessity for me.

 

[SpringArising]

I think PROPERLY picking out 4 hooves (including putting on headcollar and tying up) would take at least 10 mins. Longer if the horse was awkward, or the feet were very muddy

Ten minutes? What are you doing down there WeeLassie, mining for gold? :eek3:

 

[WeeLassie]

well, spring arising, Im not saying it takes 10 mins to pick out 4 feet, only that you should be paid for about 10 mins- that includes time catching and tying up horse, getting skip, picking out feet PROPERLY, a lot of people dont bother with frog cleft and sulcii, taking horse back to stable/field and putting gear away. I do not think £1.50 is too much to charge.
And I dont think its an unskilled job, a groom/YO has to know the ropes or they would soon get injured!

 

[Leo Walker]

I never understand why people expect livery and services to be cheap. I'm from Yorkshire and am incredibly tight but my default is I expect anything to do with horses to be expensive!

I'm currently on a DIY yard where the YO feeds my horse first thing and lets him out into his "grass paddock" by sliding the slip rails back. She doesnt charge me for that but the school is unusable, we have no secure storage, no electricity and very, very limited grazing. It wouldn't suit the majority of people but as someone with a fat cob who is fine on less than a half of the 1/3 of an acre hes allowed it works out ok for us. I am under no illusions that while the livery is cheap and the limited assistance is free, that I am paying through the nose in other ways. I have to fund ad lib high fibre haylage as he has NO grass at all. I've also spent more than £300 on electric fencing as there isnt any internal or really any external fencing. I also spent £200 on a shed for storage of things that didnt need to be secure.

We wont be there come winter as a 500kg horse on a limited area like he has would be horrific! And thats the reason she cant keep liveries. But I knew what I was getting into and I consider it very good value. Horses ARE expensive! And when you want them at a yard with a good quality school, good hacking and assistance when and if you decide you want it, then you blumming well should pay for the privilege!

 

[Leo Walker]

No one NEEDS a luxury "item" like a horse, its a conscious choice, something you want as opposed to something you need! So if you cant afford it or dont want to afford it where you want to keep it, then accept its not for you and sell up You CAN keep horses for pennies if you put them on a cheap yard and turn a blind eye to things like feet etc. Where I am from lots of people do that and are very happy. Its not for me though, so I weigh up the options and pick the one that suits my horse best, not the one that suits my budget best

 

[chocolategirl]

I havnt read all the posts on here about this topic, but I'm a YO and my yard is primarily DIY, but for the convenience of my clients, I offer all services apart from riding. I think my charges are very reasonable all things considered, as built into my prices are my care, custody and control insurance, my many years of experience in handling all types of horses, and let's not forget the CONVENIENCE factor. I make NO money at all from livery, mine is made via the sale of hay, straw and the services I provide. If I had to rely only on the income from livery (rent) I would have had to close within a year of opening. I wish you the best of luck OP finding a yard that ticks all your boxes they will be like gold dust I can assure you :-(

 

[Illusion100]

It cannot take 2 minutes to pick out each foot, I would find it hard to take a minute to put on a headcollar and tie up, then another 30 seconds per foot to pick out properly, if the horse is awkward on day 1 it wouldn't be awkward for long if handled by a pro, a complete novice may take a bit longer but they should not be dealing with liveries that are paying for a professional job.
I am not going to comment on livery charges as I routinely do extras without charging as I want to ensure the welfare of the horses in my yard and many of the charges are in my view petty, I prefer to have a slightly higher base rate and build in a bit of my time to do the odd rug change or bring in.

I'm with you, agree completely. You're my ideal sort of YO. Luckily I have one like you now, she's great.