Lame... PLEASE look (pics inc) farrier issue?

L&B I had this discussion with the vet and farrier and decided that since I wouldn't stand a cat in hells chance of keeping imprints on turned out in the mud we have at the moment I may as well go with boots and pads. I wouldn't be able to turn out in the field in boots and pads either, so if she has to stay in with just exercise in hand/under saddle and turnout in the school then she may as well have boots and pads as they are cheaper, provide plenty of support and protection and allow the foot to grow without the risk of pulling a load of horn off if the shoe comes off.

My mare is barefoot on a deep bed for about 21 hours a day. At first she was just having turnout in boots on sand and walking out in hand in the boots, now we are riding in boots and turning out on sand bare. She grew absolutely shedloads of foot, giving the farrier lots to work with when he trimmed her. She looks incredible in the boots, striding out actively, the vet was quite amazed by the difference, she looks better in the boots than she ever did in shoes. They have stayed on while she has hooned about and bucked in the school.

They cost me £70 a pair or thereabouts, and had I not got on with them I could have sold them on without making much of a loss. I have been so impressed with the boots. My farrier also thought that they were a great choice (and he has recommended them to other people in the past), as did the vet who hadn't really experienced them before.
 
Thanks KKat... I think what I am going to do is... If the farrier comes out today & puts on his front pair again for nothing, I will go with them for the six weeks they were supposed to be on, then after the 6wks I will go with boots & pads.
If he takes a look and decides its going to cost then I will get boots & pads on order right away.x
 
The saddlery shop website is really useful too.

I went for cavallo simples, nice and cheap, easy to use, and suited my mare's round feet. Then I used the 4lb EPS pads from here: http://www.equinepodiatrysupplies.co.uk/Pads/

As recommended by Lucy Priory on here. They cushion and support the sole.

I bought my boots on ebay as it was cheapest as the seller did free postage, but if you want ones made by easyboot then the saddlery shop do a try before you buy service which is worth considering.

If his feet are really very compromised you may need to leave him in on a deep bed until your boots arrive, for the first few weeks mine didn't leave her deep shavings bed without her boots on.
 
Is the horse good in the stable?
What facilities are there on the yard that you might use ? Is there a school ?
The horse is in a tough place now if he won't keep these shoes on its boots or what ?
In the mud boots are not ideal either but at least you can find them and reuse them yourself and they may rub but as OB says up to a point you can manage this .
If he's comfortable in good boots and pads you have hope , a way forward if the shoes won't work.
But it may well be management intensive for you it might be a lot of stable time for the horse over winter with you leading round and putting him in the school to play short bits of turn out .
As for vets and farrier commenting on boots be sure they are commenting on something they know something about my vet a very respected equine one clearly had little knowledge about modern boots when we got into a discussion on them.
And a bit of hope a TB horse i knowwho although older ( in his teens ) has been unsound for a long time with foot trouble his owner came to me a couple of months ago similar story to you horse lame feet falling apart nothing to nail to imprints not staying on owner at wits end .
She had seen my BF tribe out and about and asked me advice ( personally I hate this it's one thing to stand up to the vet and farrier yourself another to get others to do so).
Que OB,s diet stuff and a class in BF the GS way horse out of shoes now in boots and pads after two months the horse is sound in boots and pads and being ridden in the school and is sound she is amazed he was been sore for years there is still hope remember that.
 
My horse was going to be pts, barefoot ( boots/pads) were his last option and I wish I had tried it in the first place.
The start was a stuggle as the feet ESP the heel area was very weak but I was back in the saddle after a month. Hasn't had a lame day since his feet have been left alone.

When I say left alone I mean left alone, even a trim put my horse back to square one so iv not let anybody touch his feet since and he self trims on the rds and he's 100% sound.
Maybe this is a route to try.
My lad also grow lots of feet once bare
 
L&B said:
I asked my farrier about the normal boot/pad combo & they said the number of hours he would have to have them on would mean they rub...?? I do believe the farrier is replacing the imprint shoes tomorrow. If he pulls them off again & it meant I'd have to pay, quite frankly he would be having boots & pads.
As awful as it sounds & I'm not saying he's not worth it - I cannot.afford £200 a pop when insurance don't pay out immediately. X
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I've come to this thread a bit late and have read all of it. I have no experience with imprint shoes but I have a fair bit with boots and pads. My question would be how much experience have your vet and farrier had using boots and pads to rehab horses? Not much would be my guess.

Looking back over 19 pages I am really struggling to see why he wasn't booted and padded back in October. I see from your last couple of comments that you are now going to give these a go so hopefully you will make some progress. Someone commented about him having a deep bed at nights so he only had to be booted in the day time which sounds like an excellent idea.

A few pages back you asked what would happen when the insurance etc ran out and the horse was still sore. Simples. He will have padded boots and start to make progress but it is so depressing that boots and pads seem to be the final stage in rehabbing horses when they could be the first choice.
Good luck with him.
 
Our lami is booted, he doesn't need the pads anymore. For turnout and ridden work as he had a bad abcess that came out of three holes. Farrier couldn't get shoe on so vet said boot him up and if he needs it pads and wraps.

For the first month he did, then he just needed the wraps......now three months on I have to buy the next size up as he had changed shape so much. He can now be ridden without the boots on and while I'm waiting fir the new ones to arrive he is turnt out bare. He is sore over stones but fine on flat. It will just be a case of hardening up. He was walking on just his sole three months ago and now has a hoof wall.

I've had him on fast fibre, a bit of happy hoof( he is on metformin for IR and its the only way he will eat his tablets) and pro balance plus hoof supplement from progressive earth.
My farrier is really impressed with the supplement, says its one if the best he has seen. And at 26.99 for 72 days supply my pocket is happy too:D
 
paddy555 said:
I've come to this thread a bit late and have read all of it. I have no experience with imprint shoes but I have a fair bit with boots and pads. My question would be how much experience have your vet and farrier had using boots and pads to rehab horses? Not much would be my guess.

Looking back over 19 pages I am really struggling to see why he wasn't booted and padded back in October. I see from your last couple of comments that you are now going to give these a go so hopefully you will make some progress. Someone commented about him having a deep bed at nights so he only had to be booted in the day time which sounds like an excellent idea.

A few pages back you asked what would happen when the insurance etc ran out and the horse was still sore. Simples. He will have padded boots and start to make progress but it is so depressing that boots and pads seem to be the final stage in rehabbing horses when they could be the first choice.
Good luck with him.
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Just to re-iterate - OP I had my girls shoes taken off about two weeks before you posted this thread because she was sore in shoes - very similar.

My vet did not tell me to get boots. The vet recommended box rest and in a few weeks imprint shoes until her feet are strong enough to take nail on shoes. I asked the vet about boots because I was worried about how my horse would cope with box rest, and I was keen to be able to walk her out as soon as possible. The vet said that if I wanted to try them I could, but didn't seem to think it would change the plans at all.

However when she saw how comfy my mare was in the boots and pads she was VERY impressed. She hadn't seen them before and didn't know what to expect. We haven't bothered going down the route of imprints because she is doing so well in the boots and realistically she wouldn't be able to do anything in imprints that she couldn't do in boots, but boots will not damage her feet further and can easily be taken off and replaced.

I went down the boots route based on advice from here and the phoenix forum and from a friend on the yard my vet would not have recommended them. Few vets seem to recommend them, even speaking to one who had more experience of boots they seemed to be a bit reluctant to recommend them, and unaware of the range that is available or things like the try before you buy services.

Interestingly my farrier has been quite positive about boots and has recommended boots to clients in the past.......
 
Just a quick reply to say THANKYOU once again for all of the support & to say I'm off up the yard just now to try & get a few pics of his feet (bare).

My farrier came today & has advised to leave him on box rest until Thursday (when he visits again) on a very deep bed, which I have lovingly prepared this afternoon... This has been said to give his feet time to rest from pulling the glue off & to dry them out again.
He has then offered on Thursday either imprints & gel pads again - which he will do (reduced) again, or to glue on an aluminium metals with gel pads (for more hard wear) for free, OR I could chose boots & pads to order myself...

The only thing the farrier has said about this is & I quote:
'You can if you want to but I personally think we need more hoof on there and for him to be sounder before you go down that route'; could I have thoughts on this please?

I don't want anyone on here underestimating quite how little hoof he has, he has NONE & extremely flat feet as well as his imbalance. Are boots going to give him the real-time support he needs?
And if I take them off of an evening when he's in bed for the night to let his feet 'breathe' and to prevent rubbing, is he going to be in agony again & recovering each time they go on, off, on, off, on, off?
Our yard is lovely & I have an immense amount of support, but what we lack is facilities -- the fields are knee deep in mud and stones/bricks/rubble. The entire yard is concrete and the school is sand.... With these things as options I'm wondering what good any of that is going to do for his feet?

Thanks once again for all of these excellent replies. I'm not ignoring any of them, just exploring options... xxxxxx
 
I have my mare in imprints. When she lost them a few weeks ago I relented and had her fitted with ordinary nail on shoes, thinking she was as sound as a pound in the imprints so could probably now go with normal shoes. How wrong was I? She quickly went lame and came down with laminitis. Pads and boots helped with this (she had them on 24/7 once I had the metal shoes removed) for three weeks on box rest and they never rubbed. But she did not come fully sound, I think because of the lami. I had her refitted with imprints and she went sound without bute after four days and has been sound ever since (around 3 weeks). I am keeping her in the imprints until the insurance runs out, and then will attempt to get her back barefoot with the help of boots and pads. For her, the imprints are better than boots and pads, but far too costly to keep putting on her!
 
L&B said:
Not to sound dim, but how would it mean he could only have them on a couple of weeks max?
He's had these imprint shoes with gel sole pads on for almost 2wks & now they're off he's in hopping again (its absolutely awful to see)?
Only asking cos I'm led to believe plastic shoes & gel pads are just an expensive more permanent (not in this dire case, lol) version of boots & pads? X
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Every part of the hoof has a job to do.

Nature didn't put anything on the bottom of the hoof that wasn't meant to touch the ground.

The frog and the back of the hoof are particularly important. You have the digital cushions and the lateral cartilages internally and you have the frog and heels externally. When the back of the hoof is strong and well formed - the horse can land heel first (which is widely recognised as being important for the health of the joints, tendons and ligaments).

When the back of the hoof is weak and contracted (internally and externally) then the horse will not be able to land heel first. It will land toe first and this means the tip of the coffin bone is constantly jamming into the ground. Ouch.

The horse is designed to move and travel around 10 - 20 miles a day from the second day of life. Everything is designed to work best when moving and touching the ground. The action of moving creates circulation and thus (with the hoof) stimulates creation of more tissue. When in touch with the floor, the sole in particular becomes thicker in order to do it's job of protecting the coffin bone.

It is found time and time again that 'genetically' thin soles will become magically thicker with a decent diet and some time out of shoes.

Shoes lift the hoof off the ground. This is great BUT you are taking the stimulation away from the underside and (importantly) the back of the hoof. You are also loading the whole weight on the horse on the wall and it wasn't designed to work alone. It's supposed to work in partnership with the sole, frog, bars and heel.

Lack of stimulation to the frog means it withers and shrinks. The heels contract and start to run forward.

The Imprints allow some stimulation to the frog and some of the peripheral loading to be eased. As far as shoes go - I like Imprints. But it's still patching an unhealthy hoof and lifting it off the ground. That's not the same thing as growing a healthy hoof and laying down lots of tissue. So when he loses a shoe - you are still at square one :o.

The boots and pads allow the whole of the hoof to be in play and so become strong.

Given a decent diet - I would expect a high risk horse with soles so thin they give under thumb pressure, to only need to live in boots for around two weeks.

The horse should be fine bare in the stable on a soft bedding. The boots and pads are there when moving around on hard ground/rocks and they fill in for that weak sole.

If a horse is still so thin at the sole that they still need boots after two weeks - I would be reviewing the diet and then giving another two weeks. I would expect a horse to be able to walk around the stable, yard and field with nothing on the hooves after 4 weeks at the very worst.

Hard/rocky surfaces and ridden work without boots may take longer :).

It's all about growing a HEALTHY hoof. Allow at least 9 months in total. Once it's healthy - you can reshoe if needed.
 
Is the horse on any pain relief ?
My vet has no issue with giving quite long term pain relief in the horse is in sort of chronic pain in these circunmtances she offered it to me for my TB and my cob when we removed the shoes even though she was a BF flat earther ( she's coming round it's hard to argue with a sound TB who looks like he's had a foot transplant.) as it was I did not need it.
 
Oberon, inboxed you & I THANK you as usual...

So, if I was to go for boots:- does anyone know if I go off of my own back & pay for something the vets haven't necessarily recommended; (ie: Billy's pulled his expensive £200 imprint shoes off after having them on just over a week & I DO NOT want to pay out again, lining my vets/farriers pocket, so I'm thinking of boots & thick pads, which insurance don't cover)...
WOULD I then have invalidated my insurance claim by going against vet recommendation? Or would I simply just have pi**ed my vet off? (can't say I'm fussed about the latter lol).xx
 
Just quickly - a friend has just pulled shoes on her EXTREMELY flat footed TB, farrier also (helpfully) trimmed the horse and left him hopping lame. She put boots on, instant relief, horse has improved drastically each day and now out every day walking over the concrete yard and in the sand school without the boots on and looks totally comfortable. The boots just offered the protection the feet needed at the time.

Your concrete yard and sand school will be a massive bonus when your horse is ready :)
 
Boots are gods gift to horsekind!!!

Get some leather cavallos here:

http://www.horseandmore.co.uk/Cavallo-Simple-Horse-Hoof-Boots.html

And THESE pads:

http://www.equinepodiatrysupplies.co.uk/Pads/EPS-7lb-Pads

Use a knife to cut to shape to fit INTO the boots.

This costs less than £100 and will last you YEARS.

Regarding the on/off/on/off issue... if he has a nice deep bed then he won't be in pain. Put the boots on before you leave the stable, and take them off in the stable.

If it makes you feel better, I used mine for turnout in hard ground for about a week. They are not sealed, they have gaps in the boot for breathability and water escape they are SOFT leather. I did not have any trouble with hooves rubbing off.

Just don't use them in deep mud.
 
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I wish they sold the cavellos individually as my girl has odd sized front feet. Looks like I will have to stick with the equiboots. I need to get some new ones as was using my gelding's boots on her and one is too big.
 
My TB gelding has been extremely foot sore (hopping lame) since the removal of his shoes in June. Last time the farrier was here I decided not to have him trimmed and so he went for twelve weeks without a trim. Gradually, over that time he has become sound and I had him trimmed yesterday. The farrier didn't take too much off and he has remained completely sound. The farrier said that his soles have really thickened up. It's such a shame that I can't ride him as he is sounder than he's ever been.
 
paddy555 said:
I see from your last couple of comments that you are now going to give these a go so hopefully you will make some progress. Someone commented about him having a deep bed at nights so he only had to be booted in the day time which sounds like an excellent idea.
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I agree.

paddy555 said:
but it is so depressing that boots and pads seem to be the final stage in rehabbing horses when they could be the first choice.
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I agree again.

Best of luck. Also do look into the diet aspect seriously and remember time is an important aspect. Sore hooves don't heal and get stronger overnight. x

ps.Often sore shod hooves don't have enough structure and the trim for shoeing removes even more. Just a roll on the base of the wall is enough if something has to be trimmed.
 
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L&B said:
Oberon, inboxed you & I THANK you as usual...

So, if I was to go for boots:- does anyone know if I go off of my own back & pay for something the vets haven't necessarily recommended; (ie: Billy's pulled his expensive £200 imprint shoes off after having them on just over a week & I DO NOT want to pay out again, lining my vets/farriers pocket, so I'm thinking of boots & thick pads, which insurance don't cover)...
WOULD I then have invalidated my insurance claim by going against vet recommendation? Or would I simply just have pi**ed my vet off? (can't say I'm fussed about the latter lol).xx
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I doubt either your vet or farrier have the experience to recomend and supply boots. Unless they have dealt with boots and rehabbed horses that way in the past they are unlikely to know which ones or which pads so yes I suspect you will have to buy your own. Cost as someone said will be around £100 all in.

I would go with the cavallos as someone has just said.

Go on to the equine podiatry site that Tallyhoho has suggested. E mail or ring the owner who is very knowledeable. Make sure she understands your problem and take some advice. When she has your measurements she will be able to help with sizing etc and answer any other queries you will have.
This site is probably one of the cheapest for hoof boots and certainly the place to go for pads.

You asked a question about support and more hoof. Look at the boots and the thickness of them. Look at the pads and the thickness of those. Your feet will be very well protected.

The advantage of boots is that you can take them on and off when you chose. If your horse cannot manage on his bed at night to start with then boot him as well. As he starts to manage take them off. Boot him and start him walking on your yard. As his feet become less sore he will start to move. Movement will produce growth.
With boots you will be in control. On days as he gets a little better you will be able to take them off for short periods and let him lose on mud.
You will work out very quickly how to use the boots to provide protection and when to back off with them to let him develop his feet.
Obviously don't let anyone trim them.
As I see it this will cost you £100. I appreciate you are being funded by insurance for imprints etc but I woul have thought this was worth a risk financially, even if you have to pay yourself. I cannot really see that your farrier or vet can object to you taking 10 days out of their treatment to try something different.

If you want more comments on the cavallos then go onto the phoenix group if you are not there already. There are several users of the cavallos and posts on there which will give you some information on using them.
 
L&B..following this thread with interest. We've got a horse on our yard who is now extremely sore on 3 feet. It's gotten progressively worse over the past two weeks. He had his front shoes done a week ago but was lame in his LF and BR beforehand. He's had his back shoes off but is now hopping from foot to foot on the backs and can only use the toe on the LF.. It's upsetting to watch as hes in so much pain and can barely cope with soft ground. Not looking good but owner has not been to see him although she has been told how he is. I was almost in tears yesterday because if he was mine I would have had the vet out and put something ..Anything! On his poor feet to ease his pain. It's not looking good. I don't understand some owners ..he's a beautiful boy and she lves him but what good is love without care.:(
Well done for looking after yours so well and trying to find a solution. Friend uses boots for her boy when he's been a bit tender and they seem to work really well. Ive even hacked him out with 4 boots on and he coped beautifully. Fingers crossed your chap comes sound. :)
 
Baubles said:
L&B..following this thread with interest. We've got a horse on our yard who is now extremely sore on 3 feet. It's gotten progressively worse over the past two weeks. He had his front shoes done a week ago but was lame in his LF and BR beforehand. He's had his back shoes off but is now hopping from foot to foot on the backs and can only use the toe on the LF.. It's upsetting to watch as hes in so much pain and can barely cope with soft ground. Not looking good but owner has not been to see him although she has been told how he is. I was almost in tears yesterday because if he was mine I would have had the vet out and put something ..Anything! On his poor feet to ease his pain. It's not looking good. I don't understand some owners ..he's a beautiful boy and she lves him but what good is love without care.:(
Well done for looking after yours so well and trying to find a solution. Friend uses boots for her boy when he's been a bit tender and they seem to work really well. Ive even hacked him out with 4 boots on and he coped beautifully. Fingers crossed your chap comes sound. :)
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If a horse is in that much pain he needs a vet, who is responsible for his daily care? if he is on livery the YO should get the vet, I would just tell the owner the vet is coming, it is a duty of care.
 
Wagtail said:
I wish they sold the cavellos individually as my girl has odd sized front feet. Looks like I will have to stick with the equiboots. I need to get some new ones as was using my gelding's boots on her and one is too big.
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You could buy two pairs (cavallos are pretty cheap in the scheme of things) and then sell the spares (I bet you'd get decent money on ebay for a single unused boot). Or you could post on the for sale/wanted section of phoenix horse and see if anyone else is in a similar position and would be willing to go halves with you.

You could also contact Cavallo and some of the stockists and tell them what you are after, you never know they might be able to oblige.
 
KristmasKat said:
You could buy two pairs (cavallos are pretty cheap in the scheme of things) and then sell the spares (I bet you'd get decent money on ebay for a single unused boot). Or you could post on the for sale/wanted section of phoenix horse and see if anyone else is in a similar position and would be willing to go halves with you.

You could also contact Cavallo and some of the stockists and tell them what you are after, you never know they might be able to oblige.
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Thank you. That's a good idea.
 
cavello's were my boot of choice for my TB who had a sole you could flex with your thumbs when we embarked on our "grow new feet" project. Don't really use them now but I keep them "just in case"
 
be positive said:
If a horse is in that much pain he needs a vet, who is responsible for his daily care? if he is on livery the YO should get the vet, I would just tell the owner the vet is coming, it is a duty of care.
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agreed, I find it pretty shocking that noone has got a vet to at the very least supply pain relief to said horse.
 
tallyhohoho! said:
Boots are gods gift to horsekind!!!

Get some leather cavallos here:

http://www.horseandmore.co.uk/Cavallo-Simple-Horse-Hoof-Boots.html

And THESE pads:

http://www.equinepodiatrysupplies.co.uk/Pads/EPS-7lb-Pads

Use a knife to cut to shape to fit INTO the boots.

This costs less than £100 and will last you YEARS.

Regarding the on/off/on/off issue... if he has a nice deep bed then he won't be in pain. Put the boots on before you leave the stable, and take them off in the stable.

If it makes you feel better, I used mine for turnout in hard ground for about a week. They are not sealed, they have gaps in the boot for breathability and water escape they are SOFT leather. I did not have any trouble with hooves rubbing off.

Just don't use them in deep mud.
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The 4lb pads are thicker and softer, so should be better for the first couple of weeks. I'm no expert but I was told to use them for my bruised and sore horse by Lucy Priory.

I cut them to shape using a carving knife.

My girl is easily rubbed, the binding on a numnah rubs her and she has to have a soft cord girth to avoid rubs but her cavallos haven't rubbed since day 1 and she has worn them for turnout in a very wet sand school!

If they rub you can put a mans sock over the hoof and pull it up higher than the top of the boot to protect from rubs.

The cavallos are leather so will soften too. Once you are satisfied with the fit treat them with leather balm to help soften them (Ko-cho-line will do) and then allow your horse to wear them in the wet and keep them on to help them soften and mould to shape.

The cavallos are great if they fit your horse's foot, measure up to see, the simple is better for round feet and the sport for longer feet, but you may find that a different brand suits better.

I did lots of reading and didn't buy the gaiters as the feedback generally seemed to be that cavallo gaiters are rubbish and socks work better.

I found a supplier that was a bit cheaper than the others and offered next day delivery on ebay too.

Lots of advice on choosing the right boots here http://www.thesaddleryshop.co.uk/MeasureHoofBoots.aspx
 
ester said:
agreed, I find it pretty shocking that noone has got a vet to at the very least supply pain relief to said horse.
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& be positive.. I completely agree. Owner is off tomorrow and YO ( small private yard) said they will get the vet. BUT I would have done it much much sooner. Horse also possibly has shivers. If he's not dealt with by tomorrow I will make a scene.
 
L&B said:
Oberon, inboxed you & I THANK you as usual...

So, if I was to go for boots:- does anyone know if I go off of my own back & pay for something the vets haven't necessarily recommended; (ie: Billy's pulled his expensive £200 imprint shoes off after having them on just over a week & I DO NOT want to pay out again, lining my vets/farriers pocket, so I'm thinking of boots & thick pads, which insurance don't cover)...
WOULD I then have invalidated my insurance claim by going against vet recommendation? Or would I simply just have pi**ed my vet off? (can't say I'm fussed about the latter lol).xx
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I told the vet I was thinking of getting some, and she was skeptical but didn't object, she seemed to think they would just do for a bit of hand walking/turnout in the early days, but once she saw my mare in them she was quite happy for her to have them and stopped suggesting imprints. Far from being pissed off she was quite interested in the boots.
 
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