Lameness and owner no clue

[LEC]

I have been to 3 clinics lately and seen around 6 lame/uncomfortable horses. The trainers have not mentioned anything and all reputable. I wanted to say to one trainer do you just do nothing about it?

Things like split legs in bounces, another was lame in front from bilateral lameness behind Just as most recent examples. So should trainers say something? Why are they not?

 

[Goldenstar]

A big and very difficult question to answer.
But I agree you do see exactly what you describe .
Should trainers say something IMO yes .
Why don’t they , that’s the hard bit.

 

[Rowreach]

Should trainers say something? Absolutely yes, and I always did, unlike many around here. I wonder if they actually can't see mild lamenesses or recognise pain responses right in front of them.

Why don't they, (apart from not being able to see them), because a lot of owners don't want to know, get very cross with you for pointing things out, and ditch you for a trainer who doesn't tell them uncomfortable truths.

It's the main reason I gave up coaching.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

I've seen loads of lessons with lame horses alot of trainers just don't mention it and unfortunately the owners are totally unaware

 

[Rowreach]

I've seen loads of BHS exams with lame horses too, and the assessors don't say a word about them.

 

[muddybay]

I've seen loads of BHS exams with lame horses too, and the assessors don't say a word about them.

agreed, I rode a lame horse in a BHS exam

 

[SilverLinings]

When I used to teach for a few PC branches I would ask lame horses/ponies to leave the lesson. I have also sent lame horses/ponies home from Area exams (B test and up). I was always very careful how I raised it with the child as often they weren't aware and would worry about the pony, and I was careful to put the responsibility onto the parent. I was also aware that some parents aren't massively horsey so may be unable to spot less obvious lameness and need helping and not telling off.

On the rare occasions (three times in nearly 20 years) that it happened at an exam me and the exam organiser arranged for the child to ride in another group with a pony borrowed from a different candidate, so they didn't miss out. The worst occasion was arriving at a well know RS to carry out lunging exams and the first three horses presented to us by the RS owner/manager for us to use in the exam were all at least 5/10ths lame. Fortunately the 4th horse they pulled out was sound. We never used that centre again and told them why.

Some owners don't know their horse is lame, and some owners know but don't care. Trainers should tell the first type in order to educate them, and the second type so that they learn their behaviour isn't acceptable. I don't understand why a trainer would want to carry on a session with a horse that is obviously uncomfortable/in pain when ridden (other than for money). I suppose that a new trainer who is scared of abuse from an aggressive rider might not want to say anything, but I would hope they didn't agree to teach that person again.

 

[Zoeypxo]

agreed, I rode a lame horse in a BHS exam

also agree
I went for a trial day when i was much younger at a local equine college , horse i rode was lame so i politely dismounted and said the college was not for me and left.

 

[TPO]

Doesn't help that there are so many people who call themselves trainers when they barely know one end of a horse from the other! Always quick to hand out advice and extoll their virtues but can't actually master the simplest aspects of training and have never ending dramas and issues with their own horses.

But yes, a good trainer should notice and speak up. A lame horse shouldn't be left to carry on regardless.

 

[SilverLinings]

Doesn't help that there are so many people who call themselves trainers when they barely know one end of a horse from the other! Always quick to hand out advice and extoll their virtues but can't actually master the simplest aspects of training and have never ending dramas and issues with their own horses.

But yes, a good trainer should notice and speak up. A lame horse shouldn't be left to carry on regardless.

That's a good point, maybe some of the trainers don't actually realise that the horses are lame

 

[millitiger]

I see lame horses everywhere!

I spoke to my horse physio about it at length on her last visit- she also sees lots of lame horses and owners aren't interested when she suggests they need a vet and the owner simply gets another physio in!

I think it is the same with trainers, if they do say something, the client just goes elsewhere.
I think it's even harder with one off clinics, which a lot of instruction now falls under.

I did go to a camp once and the trainer was someone I had used for years and knew well- she very diplomatically raised the issue of one horse's weight in a lesson and advised the extra pounds probably weren't helping the horse to become as enthusiastic and forward as the owner wanted.
The owner instantly was horribly hostile and defensive and proceeded to slate the trainer all camp- it was very uncomfortable for all, particularly as when pushed I had to say I agreed with trainer!

 

[Tiddlypom]

That's a good point, maybe some of the trainers don't actually realise that the horses are lame

I think that this is the case.

The start of my homebred's loan rapidly unravelling started when I went along to spectate at a pre BE event season clinic. Little horse was not her usual willing self and was stopping. She was aiming at BE100s.

I seemed to be the only person to clock that all was not well. It soon transpired that she was irrevocably broken, and only her innate willingness had kept her going. She is permanently retired despite multiple joint and SI medications. Loads of professional horsey people had not noticed.

 

[muddybay]

Not my opinion but just a ponder- do some of these horses who appear 'lame' just have weaknesses like we do. If these horses are happy in their work and not showing pain signals could over-investigating cause more harm than good? I know a few horses who have hip dips etc who have sound and happy competition careers despite maybe not being able to pass a vetting

 

[Cloball]

I have another ponder, how best do amateur horse owners learn how to spot lameness outside the barn door head nodding/hopping. If say you didn't come up through pony club or do any BHS assessments etc. Learned to ride as stables where the ponies are older, a bit stiff. Pain responses and poor performance is out down to behavioural issues... It doesn't really foster the best learning.

Most of what I've learned has been through experienced friends, discussions with vets and through curiosity. It would be easy to not do that.

Yes I think trainers should mention it, I would want to know because I am not perfect and I'm still learning. I'd be mortified but still.

 

[millitiger]

Not my opinion but just a ponder- do some of these horses who appear 'lame' just have weaknesses like we do. If these horses are happy in their work and not showing pain signals could over-investigating cause more harm than good? I know a few horses who have hip dips etc who have sound and happy competition careers despite maybe not being able to pass a vetting

I'm very pragmatic about horses being sound for the work they do, rather than for vettings.

The many, many, horses I see which I class as lame are uncomfortable and in pain.
Unfortunately it isn't a mechanical anomaly on an otherwise happy horse.

 

[TheMule]

What I can never understand is often these horses aren’t being subtle in their clues to their discomfort- they're disuniting, swapping leads, landing consistently favoring one lead, crooked, bucking, resistant to going forwards, stopping at fences that previous were well within their comfort zone. They couldn’t signal it more clearly if they tried

 

[teapot]

I have another ponder, how best do amateur horse owners learn how to spot lameness outside the barn door head nodding/hopping. If say you didn't come up through pony club or do any BHS assessments etc. Learned to ride as stables where the ponies are older, a bit stiff. Pain responses and poor performance is out down to behavioural issues... It doesn't really foster the best learning.

Most of what I've learned has been through experienced friends, discussions with vets and through curiosity. It would be easy to not do that.

Yes I think trainers should mention it, I would want to know because I am not perfect and I'm still learning. I'd be mortified but still.

If you have eyes and are keen to improve your own knowledge you still learn. One of the reasons I left a job I adored - I couldn't face what I was seeing out my window. I also never underestimated what clients could and did see and/or feel, unlike the boss...

 

[LEC]

I am pragmatic about lameness and there is fit for the job, one of the horses I was most uncomfortable about was a horse that was lame in 3 legs and owner wanted to learn to jump (it was sharing a lesson with my green TB). Horse was very backwards but safe probably because it wasn’t comfortable. It wasn’t fat and didn’t look unfit yet had a lot of white sweat between its hind legs and wasn’t working hard.

Another one I felt deeply uncomfortable about was this week at camp where it was very backwards, split hind legs in bounces, no power, struggling over not that big jumps And a lack of topline. That one just shouted stiff and hocks but it was being asked to do a lot and was just incredibly honest. That one I did mention to two friends who know the owner to have a word. I did offer but they said it wouldn’t go well.

I think I have learnt a lot about lameness through videos and my own horses having issues. The slow growing stuff is hard like hocks and suspensorys but you get better sadly through experience. I am more than happy to share videos if people want to learn from them. The more you watch the better you can educate yourself.

 

[SEL]

I have another ponder, how best do amateur horse owners learn how to spot lameness outside the barn door head nodding/hopping. If say you didn't come up through pony club or do any BHS assessments etc. Learned to ride as stables where the ponies are older, a bit stiff. Pain responses and poor performance is out down to behavioural issues... It doesn't really foster the best learning.

Most of what I've learned has been through experienced friends, discussions with vets and through curiosity. It would be easy to not do that.

Yes I think trainers should mention it, I would want to know because I am not perfect and I'm still learning. I'd be mortified but still.

It's very hard for amateurs if the RS horses aren't 100% and riders are discouraged from saying they feel something is not quite right. I had my horses on livery at a RS for a few years and I think most of the RS horses had developed compensation patterns. The Bute box was well used.

 

[McGrools]

I think most coaches can spot subtle lameness, its whether they have the verbal tact or maybe balls to deflate the horse owners hopes and dreams by pointing it out. Esp if said horse was a recent and expensive purchase!

 

[Ample Prosecco]

I was offered a lame horse at a well known BHS test centre during a practice for upcoming exams. I queried it and was told ‘that’s normal for her’. I said ‘would I be allowed to query it on exam day’ and they said no! They said I could ask ‘is this normal for the horse’ but not say ‘the horse is lame’ nor refuse to ride without just walking away from the exams. The next horse I was offered had huge sarcoids between its front legs that were rubbing and bleeding. Literally blood dripping all over the arena. I refused to ride that one. And I dropped out of my BHS stages after that. I was trying to get sone teaching qualifications but have parked that plan.

 

[teapot]

I was offered a lame horse at a well known BHS test centre during a practice for upcoming exams. I queried it and was told ‘that’s normal for her’. I said ‘would I be allowed to query it on exam day’ and they said no! They said I could ask ‘is this normal for the horse’ but not say ‘the horse is lame’ nor refuse to ride without just walking away from the exams. The next horse I was offered had huge sarcoids between its front legs that were rubbing and bleeding. Literally blood dripping all over the arena. I refused to ride that one. And I dropped out of my BHS stages after that. I was trying to get sone teaching qualifications but have parked that plan.

FFS, BHS centres don't help themselves sometimes and I know you're talking about one of the recommended ones too How on earth could you ask 'is this normal for the horse?' if you're being independently assessed?! Bear in mind the assessors only ride horses at Stage 4 and 5, and for 15/20mins max.

Someone got off a horse in my Stage 3 in the first five minutes, told the assessors it wasn't right, horse was put away, and they got on something else!

 

[wren123]

Years ago I got asked to teach at pony club, I sent a very lame pony out of my lesson - I was never asked to teach again!
I only did my BHSAI for my own personal satisfaction so thank goodness I didn't need to teach but you can see why some trainers don't say anything.

 

[ester]

LEC what do you mean by split legs at bounces, I genuinely don't know

 

[j1ffy]

LEC what do you mean by split legs at bounces, I genuinely don't know

I was about to ask the same! @LEC - would really appreciate the offer of videos too.

 

[LEC]

LEC what do you mean by split legs at bounces, I genuinely don't know

Included a picture of my horse which is fine and correct - when they have split hind legs on landing or take off it means they are compensating and not doing even push off. It’s just a big red flag for me with bounces as the general nature of the question means they have to react quickly and need to be even. In the photos you can see the athleticism required and they are not particularly big bounces so they just show up any issues physically.

 

[Michen]

Tbh I find it baffling that owners of horses who compete and should therefore be able to afford it, don’t at least get their horses checked by a vet twice a year. I do four times as I know mine has a hock problem. I also know I am rubbish at seeing lameness.

That involves flexions, lunge hard and soft. Yet most people seem happy to wait until they have a super obvious lameness before getting a vet involved. How many horses could be saved if things were caught earlier, I wonder?

How many people get the above done once a year, let alone twice? It should be part of every vaccination at least. Yet the very sane people will spank money on bit fitters and saddle pads.

And I don’t buy the “I’d know if something was wrong” crap. Because most of us amateurs can’t see minor lameness. Very minor lameness will often have next to no symptoms until it’s developed into something more. Of all the things we spend money on for our horses, vet care should be top of the priority. Before new saddles, clinics, whatever.

 

[LEC]

I look back at this and realise he is lame now but just clueless at the time and it was a slow one - just a gradual loss of performance and one day finally obvious. He was always a lousy sjer but some of that was training, me being clueless and him being spooky and tricky. Easy to blame your riding a lot of the time. This doesn’t help with identifying issues though as his behaviour was consistent. He was tricky in the mouth and it got worse which I now look at as a flag, had irregular muscles behind (I never used to look) which is also now a flag for me I stand on a chair and check them regularly. I also video lunge them every few months and keep the videos to compare as sometimes not obvious if you see them everyday. I am much more concerned about posture now and I have things I do regularly to check whether they are even in how they move like turning a tight circle in hand and looking at the cross over behind and how easy they find it.

 

[Michen]

I look back at this and realise he is lame now but just clueless at the time and it was a slow one - just a gradual loss of performance and one day finally obvious. He was always a lousy sjer but some of that was training, me being clueless and him being spooky and tricky. Easy to blame your riding a lot of the time. This doesn’t help with identifying issues though as his behaviour was consistent. He was tricky in the mouth and it got worse which I now look at as a flag, had irregular muscles behind (I never used to look) which is also now a flag for me I stand on a chair and check them regularly. I also video lunge them every few months and keep the videos to compare as sometimes not obvious if you see them everyday. I am much more concerned about posture now and I have things I do regularly to check whether they are even in how they move like turning a tight circle in hand and looking at the cross over behind and how easy they find it.

Do you have a vet check your competing/hard worked horses every year regardless of symptoms, out of interest? Or perhaps even more regularly, pre season etc?

Ps I wouldn’t know that horse was lame. Neither did you at the time. That’s why I just ant understand why amateurs dont spend more money on a simple basic lameness check.

 

[LEC]

Do you have a vet check your competing/hard worked horses every year regardless of symptoms, out of interest? Or perhaps even more regularly, pre season etc?

Ps I wouldn’t know that horse was lame. Neither did you at the time. That’s why I just ant understand why amateurs dont spend more money on a simple basic lameness check.

I get feet x rayed now yearly so it generally gets done then. I am also obsessed by gait analysis as found it very useful on 2 horses to build data and for £60 it sees what the eye cannot.