Lameness and owner no clue

[Fieldlife]

I'm hopeless at seeing lameness, unless it's obvious. When my mare was slightly lame I felt it, I couldn't see it, but she just felt 'lumpy'. She wasn't as keen, stopped trotting before being asked and just felt very slightly 'off'. It was a touch of arthritis that with remedial shoeing and supplements has so far been OK.

I dont think you need to be great at spotting lameness versus great at listening to your horse and knowing what there normal is or isnt for them.

I also have 3 monthly physio, sports massage and chiropractor for my horse. All of them watch him walk and trot up before and after treatment, and all have a sharp eye for movement.

 

[Fieldlife]

I sent the pony to a lameness specialist last year when her hind hoof balance got very quirky and she felt 'off' under saddle to be told they'd had to lunge her for 30 minutes to get her to go lame. Knowing how that pony lunges when she's full of herself (driving pony trot, hollow, head to outside) I couldn't even say that any lameness appearing after 30 mins wasn't related to straining something on the lunge. When I reminded the vet that she was there because she had serious lateral wear on both hinds there was silence on the end of the phone followed by a suggestion it was the farrier's fault. X-rays proved otherwise.

I am guessing the sending was covid related? As I cant imagine ever not being there, with the vet, as part of the team in a soundness work up. Too important, and too expensive, not to have them focused on the issues being presented at home.

 

[ycbm]

What Ever Happened to “Serviceably” Sound?

When I first got out of veterinary school and started looking at horses prior to purchase (usually referred to as a “vet check” or a prepurchase exam), the horses usually fit into one of three categories. The first category was the horse with no problems noted at the time of the exam. That...

horsenetwork.com

What happened to "serviceably sound" is the understanding of just how much horses hide pain, and of the fact that we now accept that we use horses for our pleasure, they are not there to be our servants.

I dislike that article , (as I do many that David Marlin writes). I don't find it ethical to suggest that a horse which is noticeably lame with arthritis in the fetlock is fine to ride once a fortnight when you fancy going out with your friends.

I'm also very uncomfortable with the idea of riding horses more so that they will be in less pain than if they aren't ridden at all, but still in a level of pain. To me the answer to that situation is not exercise, it's PTS.

 

[Michen]

I don’t personally think vet physios or similar can replace a check up from a good vet. They simply haven’t had the same level of training. But that’s just my opinion and I appreciate there’s always exceptions out there and particularly good ones.

 

[Fieldlife]

What happened to "serviceably sound" is the understanding of just how much horses hide pain, and of the fact that we now accept that we use horses for our pleasure, they are not there to be our servants.

I dislike that article , (as I do many that David Marlin writes). I don't find it ethical to suggest that a horse which is noticeably lame with arthritis in the fetlock is fine to ride once a fortnight when you fancy going out with your friends.

I'm also very uncomfortable with the idea of riding horses more so that they will be in less pain than if they aren't ridden at all, but still in a level of pain. To me the answer to that situation is not exercise, it's PTS.

Think it depends on what the cause of the pain is. And what the best interests of the horse in question is. And what the horse is happy to do. For humans and horses with mild arthritis the best way to manage is often to stay active, keep postural muscles working and stay fit. Resting them will mean likely weight gain and increased lameness in the field, depending on the condition. For example SI conditions, horses tend to deteriorate if not in work. Equally if every time vet checks horse and bodyworker checks horse it is presenting sore, then the condition isn't being managed ethically and another choice is needed. Agree the increased understanding of pain ethograms is very useful information.

 

[SEL]

What happened to "serviceably sound" is the understanding of just how much horses hide pain, and of the fact that we now accept that we use horses for our pleasure, they are not there to be our servants.

I dislike that article , (as I do many that David Marlin writes). I don't find it ethical to suggest that a horse which is noticeably lame with arthritis in the fetlock is fine to ride once a fortnight when you fancy going out with your friends.

I'm also very uncomfortable with the idea of riding horses more so that they will be in less pain than if they aren't ridden at all, but still in a level of pain. To me the answer to that situation is not exercise, it's PTS.

I don't think 'serviceably sound' should be an all round excuse for riding lame horses but there are situations where I think a horse that shouldn't be on one of LEC's jumping clinics due to hock arthritis (for instance) could still be a very happy hacker. Arthritis is one of those situations where we know that keeping a horse - or indeed a human - in a certain level of work really does help. I know plenty happily in low level hacking homes who are a long way off needing a bullet.

 

[SEL]

I don’t personally think vet physios or similar can replace a check up from a good vet. They simply haven’t had the same level of training. But that’s just my opinion and I appreciate there’s always exceptions out there and particularly good ones.

I actually think a lot of them have had more training in terms of movement analysis than most vets. One of the vet physios I know reckoned in her 3 year course she'd looked at over 300 different horses in motion and had to feed back on what she was seeing, what skeletal issues there might be and what muscles may or may not be involved in the movement pattern.

But not all vet physio courses are equal in terms of training

 

[Tiddlypom]

Keeping a mildly creaky horse ticking over in light suitable work is often better for the horse than just chucking it out in a field. The rider does need to be clued up and attuned to their horse, and prepared to back off or dial down the work if the horse is unhappy.

Two vets have told me that wonky mare (she is mechanically wonky after a pelvic injury, but not in pain) will be better if kept in light hacking work. Chiro vet thinks that wonky mare's attitude is just brilliant, she's adjusted mentally to her wonkiness very well and just gets on with it.

If all wonky mare wants to do is a walk hack a couple of times a week that'll be grand by me. If she decides that it's time to retire, she'll tell me and I'll respect that - it's her choice.

All my 3 get a full soundness check 3 times a year by my chiro vet - walk and trot in straight lines, walk, trot, canter on the lunge, with close checking for any pain faces. Plus then a full body check. They can be pasture ornaments, but they've got to be happy ones.

 

[Michen]

I actually think a lot of them have had more training in terms of movement analysis than most vets. One of the vet physios I know reckoned in her 3 year course she'd looked at over 300 different horses in motion and had to feed back on what she was seeing, what skeletal issues there might be and what muscles may or may not be involved in the movement pattern.

But not all vet physio courses are equal in terms of training

My understanding was that the courses aren’t particularly thorough but very happy to be corrected. I believe vet physios don’t need to go through the human physio route first? Are they qualified to do flexions etc?

Either way, I just don’t think (in most cases) a good vet with experience in lameness can be bettered.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

What I can never understand is often these horses aren’t being subtle in their clues to their discomfort- they're disuniting, swapping leads, landing consistently favoring one lead, crooked, bucking, resistant to going forwards, stopping at fences that previous were well within their comfort zone. They couldn’t signal it more clearly if they tried

And yet it gets ignored or labelled as ‘she/he is such a t**t if I had a pound for every time I heard that!

We have a place locally that does a lot of group lessons. It’s shocking how uncomfortable several horses are, how riders can ignore it and the instructor not notice it is beyond me.

Part of me wonders if they do notice but it’s the money side, they could potentially loose a lot of money if it’s a regular rider.

It’s funny this has been posted as was only talking to a friend about it last week.

 

[ifyousayso]

What happened to "serviceably sound" is the understanding of just how much horses hide pain, and of the fact that we now accept that we use horses for our pleasure, they are not there to be our servants.

I dislike that article , (as I do many that David Marlin writes). I don't find it ethical to suggest that a horse which is noticeably lame with arthritis in the fetlock is fine to ride once a fortnight when you fancy going out with your friends.

I'm also very uncomfortable with the idea of riding horses more so that they will be in less pain than if they aren't ridden at all, but still in a level of pain. To me the answer to that situation is not exercise, it's PTS.

I disagree I have a mare with hock arthritis the vet has told me to keep her in work and she copes fine in work. most horses with arthritis do well being a happy hacker , as someone who has rheumatoid arthritis the more you move and exercise the less stiffness and pain you get . I have noticed when my mare gets warmed up she moves fine and is a lot happier.

 

[Fieldlife]

My understanding was that the courses aren’t particularly thorough but very happy to be corrected. I believe vet physios don’t need to go through the human physio route first? Are they qualified to do flexions etc?

Either way, I just don’t think (in most cases) a good vet with experience in lameness can be bettered.

Vet physio courses are pretty thorough. There’s some talking down from Chartered equine Physio’s trained the human route (when was only option) that are threatened by new qualification. Though my physio is the latter (by age), all are solid qualifications. Though will be good snd bad practitioners in the field, like everything.

IMO there are vets and vets, bodyworker and bodyworkers etc. not all same.

Some experienced (and some inexperienced) vets don’t have a good eye for lameness. Many vets don’t ride or train horses.

Some Physio’s / Chiro’s / bodyworkers are amazing equestrian professionals with a good eye for movement understand training, rehab and development.

Some bodyworker are very limited too!!

Personally as I’ve said horse gets movement assessed by chiro / physio / equine sports massage therapist each every three months. Also gets checked by vet at vaccinations and annual foot balance X-rays.

I also tend to personally assess way of going on the lunge every ten days or so. And my trainers all comment on how he’s moving / going too.

Think need a solid team behind your horse.

Do agree a really good lameness vet is very helpful.

 

[Gamebird]

I'm also very uncomfortable with the idea of riding horses more so that they will be in less pain than if they aren't ridden at all, but still in a level of pain. To me the answer to that situation is not exercise, it's PTS.

So what do you do with the equine equivalent of me? I am often stiff (legs and back) to the point where I take ibuprofen. So stiff/sore to the point of being painful, and if I get up from sitting for a period, or out of a car, people will often comment 'oh, you look a bit lame'. However if I run, ideally every day, but at least 4 times a week, then that reduces, and after a period will almost completely abate. Stop the running for a couple of weeks and I'm cronky again.

Obviously it would be facetious to ask 'would you shoot me too?', but the point remains. There must be horses with the equivalent issues. Exercise (with pain relief to facilitate if necessary) is a useful tool in human medicine for OA etc.

 

[humblepie]

What about horses that have regular joint medication - this seems to be such a thing nowadays. Comparing it to the human exercise to keep active situation - OH had a joint medicated, it was super for about three weeks, then back to painful. It flares up badly if he is really busy at work but settles down if he has a few days off and you can really see the difference. Should horses have time off and a better management plan rather than medication? Just throwing that out for discussion as something I find very interesting given that joint medication seems to be routine now for many horses.

 

[SilverLinings]

What about horses that have regular joint medication - this seems to be such a thing nowadays. Comparing it to the human exercise to keep active situation - OH had a joint medicated, it was super for about three weeks, then back to painful. It flares up badly if he is really busy at work but settles down if he has a few days off and you can really see the difference. Should horses have time off and a better management plan rather than medication? Just throwing that out for discussion as something I find very interesting given that joint medication seems to be routine now for many horses.

I think it depends what the medication is for and is doing. Pain relief may result in a problem being made worse as the horse won't 'guard' the bit that is painful. Medication that halts/improves/fixes a condition may mean that the horse working will not make the problem worse, and in a lot of cases even if the horse was retired it should still be receiving the medication (as a side note I get so cross when people tell me that because their horse is retired it doesn't need pain relief/medication, despite the clear evidence that the horse is suffering).

I personally don't think it is ethical to use medication to mask a problem or allow the owner to ride the horse resulting in the problem being made worse. If the horse is pain free on the medication and riding wouldn't make the condition worse (or cause another one) then it will depend on the individual horse and what benefit there is from continuing to keep them in work (this would also depend on the severity/type of condition to begin with).

 

[Flame_]

As an owner of a NQR horse I do have a strong belief in letting them live happy lives doing appropriate tasks. That usually means they move from me to other people.

Some people would argue that passing on unsound horses whilst you move on to the next one is not massively responsible or compassionate. I'm OK with it, personally, especially if when the horses are moved on it's by loan arrangements, but it is how unsound horses end up doing the rounds of muppets and dealers.

The truth is most people have one horse, many dreams and limited resources, so they make the best of what they've got, however sound it is or isn't.

 

[ramsaybailey]

So what do you do with the equine equivalent of me? I am often stiff (legs and back) to the point where I take ibuprofen. So stiff/sore to the point of being painful, and if I get up from sitting for a period, or out of a car, people will often comment 'oh, you look a bit lame'. However if I run, ideally every day, but at least 4 times a week, then that reduces, and after a period will almost completely abate. Stop the running for a couple of weeks and I'm cronky again.

Obviously it would be facetious to ask 'would you shoot me too?', but the point remains. There must be horses with the equivalent issues. Exercise (with pain relief to facilitate if necessary) is a useful tool in human medicine for OA etc.

Interested in thoughts on this point too! My back is awful at the moment - but its due to me being lazy with my exercise that helps it, once I'm in a good routine with exercise and posture my back is so much better.

 

[millitiger]

I think the problem with a lot of the 'what if' defences, is that generally the horse is doing what the owner wants to do NOT what is best for the horse.

Hence seeing so many of these horses at shows and clinics- they aren't just being asked to plod around the block 4 x week or do in hand suppling work to benefit them.

They are being asked to jump, maintain an outline, do gridwork etc. and if they show discomfort by reluctance to go forwards, unsteady contact, stiff to bend etc. then they are kicked a bit harder or 'bent' a bit more firmly with the rein.
God help them if they escalate and nap or refuse...!

 

[LEC]

Some people would argue that passing on unsound horses whilst you move on to the next one is not massively responsible or compassionate. I'm OK with it, personally, especially if when the horses are moved on it's by loan arrangements, but it is how unsound horses end up doing the rounds of muppets and dealers.

The truth is most people have one horse, many dreams and limited resources, so they make the best of what they've got, however sound it is or isn't.

I have a massive horse network so they are loaned or sold cheaply to friends of friends. I appreciate some people change their aims around the horse but I don’t, competing at 80cm doesn’t interest me. I get huge pleasure from watching my very lovely schoolmaster horses go off and have a great time with someone else.

 

[ycbm]

So what do you do with the equine equivalent of me? I am often stiff (legs and back) to the point where I take ibuprofen. So stiff/sore to the point of being painful, and if I get up from sitting for a period, or out of a car, people will often comment 'oh, you look a bit lame'. However if I run, ideally every day, but at least 4 times a week, then that reduces, and after a period will almost completely abate. Stop the running for a couple of weeks and I'm cronky again.

Obviously it would be facetious to ask 'would you shoot me too?', but the point remains. There must be horses with the equivalent issues. Exercise (with pain relief to facilitate if necessary) is a useful tool in human medicine for OA etc.

I don't think it is at all useful to compare horses with humans. It isn't legal to make a human pain and stress free by shooting them. It is a horse.

A human can reconcile temporary pain with feeling better long term. A horse can't.

A human in pain can reconcile that pain and get compensatory enjoyment from a myriad of other activities and close relationships with family and friends. A horse can't.

I believe the stress of being an animal which knows that the sick/lame herd member is the next one who will be breakfast for a lion is often not sufficiently taken account of.

So I prefer any horse of mine to be in a place where it can never feel pain again, if I think there is significant doubt about how much pain it is in.

Please note that I am NOT telling anyone else to shoot their horse or making any judgements about how any forum member keeps their horse. That is a decision that can only be made by an owner who knows their horse intimately, who selflessly puts their own emotions aside and makes a very considered and honest judgement about how much pain their own horse is in.
.

 

[ycbm]

I think the problem with a lot of the 'what if' defences, is that generally the horse is doing what the owner wants to do NOT what is best for the horse.

Hence seeing so many of these horses at shows and clinics- they aren't just being asked to plod around the block 4 x week or do in hand suppling work to benefit them.

They are being asked to jump, maintain an outline, do gridwork etc. and if they show discomfort by reluctance to go forwards, unsteady contact, stiff to bend etc. then they are kicked a bit harder or 'bent' a bit more firmly with the rein.
God help them if they escalate and nap or refuse...!

I agree completely. Also I see a lot of justification of riding unsound horses to keep them sounder/in less pain than they would otherwise be. But there is no absolute necessity to add our own weight to their backs to do that exercise, it's just the way most people doing it find easiest/cheapest/most personally enjoyable.
.

 

[RachelFerd]

Somewhat on-topic when this pops up in my social media feed this evening... https://thehorse.com/1121701/researchers-determine-fine-line-between-asymmetry-and-lameness/

 

[Tiddlypom]

Light regular ridden work for a mildly arthritic horse can be of great benefit to the horse. Better than just chucking it out in a field, for instance, where it just gets stiffer. But it does depend on the diagnosis and the horse + rider, and the rider's expectations.

A horse with soft tissue damage such as a damaged suspensory may never hold up to ridden work again. My retired homebred teenager's eventer is such a horse. We can keep her happily pasture sound but she would break if ridden, though she would love to back in work. Arthritis is different.

I've no time for riders who work horses beyond their capabilities, but light appropriate work with vet approval can be very helpful.

 

[maya2008]

My definition of whether they should be ridden is: does riding improve soundness?
If so, carry on. If not, stop and rest.

And yes, sometimes carrying weight is beneficial. - My old pssm mare always struggled with less than adult weight on her - carrying a child only exercised some of her muscles, whereas carrying an adult was more work and led to a happier, healthier pony.
- Likewise, my TB with locking stifles needed to keep those hindquarters muscled, more than she could get from exercises on the lunge. She needed lateral work, good doses of fast work, lots of transitions and to do so with weights (like humans use them in physio) to build enough muscle that everything worked as it should.
- EMS pony doesn’t need weight on her back, but she has made it clear that she really doesn’t want to be on the lead for the rest of her life, so would greatly prefer to carry a child. Vet advice is to do as much as she is happy to do, twice a day if possible, as it’s her only chance to be comfortable and out of pain with her feet. Medication we can use in the short term but the vet has made it clear it’s not a good long-term option. We will compromise on the lightest possible child that can ride her off lead, and commit the time and effort into lots and lots of work for her. We love her, so of course we will do whatever we can. It’s work her to lower the levels or pts at this point - we have done the diet thing and she has no fat on her left to lose, this is her only chance.
- For some reason, when young, my mare went lame when out of ridden work. The longer she was out of work, the worse it got. You could lead her from another horse, lunge her, but still she would deteriorate without a decent amount of rider weight regularly. Muscle supporting something was the best guess anyone could come up with. It wasn’t worth having extensive investigations as ridden work fixed it. She’s been fine for years and years now, no idea if it would reoccur if I took a few weeks off or if whatever it was is now permanently fixed. Not really keen on finding out!

In contrast, sweet cob played in the field and hurt himself. He was sore on both hamstrings. No obvious lameness to see (because it was bilateral behind), but he felt odd when you sat on him. He was rested until there was no pain on palpation and is now on a program of slowly increasing work to allow the final healing to take place (needs to be kept tired enough he doesn’t play too much). Each ride he feels better - stronger, more active behind, happier. So we know we are doing the right thing. The advantage of ridden over non-ridden work is it is in straight lines and controlled. I can keep him straight, keep a close eye on how he feels and make sure he doesn’t mis-step and cause any further damage.

Little Welsh A filly also sometimes signs herself up for more work than she can really do by badgering the kids to ride her, then gets tired. She gets random holidays as a result, until she’s skidding through the gate again for rides and feeling full of herself once more.

I also know one who has no actual diagnosis but is stressed out to the nines by being ridden, and just is clearly in pain despite nothing definitive having been found. She is retired, because it is clear to all that she should not be working.

I wouldn’t take something that isn’t quite sound to a competition though… there’s being in work because it is basically physio, and competing, and they are not the same

 

[Fieldlife]

I wouldn’t take something that isn’t quite sound to a competition though… there’s being in work because it is basically physio, and competing, and they are not the same

There is and I agree. Though say hacking an ex-advanced event horse that benefits from being kept lightly ticking over to do a local prelim / novice class with a greener rider wont do any harm. Or taking same horse in very low level jumping classes occasionally on good ground, assuming horse enjoys jumping, wont hurt. There arent any hard and fast rules with horses. But most of us do know where the moral boundaries should be with individual older or NQR horses. And most of us, are constantly checking with trainers / vets / bodyworkers / the horse themselves, that we have the balance right in the interests of the horse's welfare.

 

[ester]

Fb keeps showing me bounce videos to over analyse now

 

[RachelFerd]

I'm just n

Fb keeps showing me bounce videos to over analyse now

I'm just not sure how accurate this is - my old event horse (approaching his 30s) evented up to intermediate and never had any significant episodes of lameness, but also very rarely bothered to push equally from behind over a fence - he spent most of his time using one or other hindleg (but was I suppose fairly equal in whether he pushed from the left or ride). My older OTTB (sadly lost him last year) was incredible at patting the ground and pushing off both hind legs very squarely over a fence, but actually had many years of low-grade RH lameness relating to cartilage problems in that fetlock. But he always pushed off both hindlegs very well *shrug*

 

[LEC]

I'm just n


I'm just not sure how accurate this is - my old event horse (approaching his 30s) evented up to intermediate and never had any significant episodes of lameness, but also very rarely bothered to push equally from behind over a fence - he spent most of his time using one or other hindleg (but was I suppose fairly equal in whether he pushed from the left or ride). My older OTTB (sadly lost him last year) was incredible at patting the ground and pushing off both hind legs very squarely over a fence, but actually had many years of low-grade RH lameness relating to cartilage problems in that fetlock. But he always pushed off both hindlegs very well *shrug*

Fences are less easy to distinguish - it could be a million things that have caused it. Though you do want it even as much as possible hence starting young horses with a pole in front of a fence to encourage it. Multiple Bounces though are a very particular indicator as canter stride is even, the horse is straight on the whole and the rider isn’t such an influence. It’s then down to mechanics.

 

[Maddie Moo]

I once watched a well know showing judge place a horse 4th at a large county show despite the fact the horse was very clearly lame behind

This incident happened recently in the US, Decorated My Life suffered a catastrophic injury to her right foreleg and this video of her going to post on the same day showing her being off / lame on the same leg emerged. Both vets missed it (they see them trot on flat surfaces only), the jockey and the pony rider. Article and pre-race video here.

 

[McGrools]

I once watched a well know showing judge place a horse 4th at a large county show despite the fact the horse was very clearly lame behind

This incident happened recently in the US, Decorated My Life suffered a catastrophic injury to her right foreleg and this video of her going to post on the same day showing her being off / lame on the same leg emerged. Both vets missed it (they see them trot on flat surfaces only), the jockey and the pony rider. Article and pre-race video here.

Poor horse. The jockey should really have felt that on the way to post