Lameness and owner no clue

[Red-1]

I look back at this and realise he is lame now but just clueless at the time and it was a slow one - just a gradual loss of performance and one day finally obvious. He was always a lousy sjer but some of that was training, me being clueless and him being spooky and tricky. Easy to blame your riding a lot of the time. This doesn’t help with identifying issues though as his behaviour was consistent. He was tricky in the mouth and it got worse which I now look at as a flag, had irregular muscles behind (I never used to look) which is also now a flag for me I stand on a chair and check them regularly. I also video lunge them every few months and keep the videos to compare as sometimes not obvious if you see them everyday. I am much more concerned about posture now and I have things I do regularly to check whether they are even in how they move like turning a tight circle in hand and looking at the cross over behind and how easy they find it.

That is a heck of a lot sounder than most horses that are for sale. He looks basically sound there, with the odd falter when changing something, but it is barely discernible and, with it also being on grass, I would have gone to view had he been for sale as I would have thought it would be possibly just uneven ground.

I used to teach, and had to sack the occasional client for lameness that they didn't want to know about and investigate. One who had a vet/physio involved but they said to continue work where I said no. I did a video the last time I went, to show the owner why it was a no, so they could go back to their professionals.

I also taught a couple who had nice horses who were destined for light hacking but were not sound for arena work. I would do minimal lessons to get them safe enough to enjoy their light hacking so the horse could live a useful, steady and happy life. I would tell the owner that this is what we were doing, have the vet involved and sometimes pain relief just to get horse/rider on the same page.

 

[LEC]

Here is the other. First bit is when she was sound but as I keep regular videos thought it would be interesting. Gait analysis actually diagnosed this one. The last video is how she is now, so though she will never go back to eventing she has a lovely low level life with a completely unambitious friend mostly hacking, fun rides and the occasional jump but not allowed to jump bigger than 80cm. Where she is interesting is that NSAIDs made zero difference and I tested and played with a lot and she hasn’t changed from last video so it’s mechanical and not pain. X rays were all as clean as a whistle and we x rayed every year. These videos are probably over a period of 2 years.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

That is really interesting, Lec. Thanks. Just had a grid clinic so I have pored over my pics! Think they are all ok. I assume split front legs are just casualness, sometimes? She snaps them up morw when the jumps get bigger.

Michen, I have Lottie checked by a vet physio every 6 weeks which includes walk and trot up, turns on a tight circle, and an assessment under her hands. She is fantastic at spotting lameness, and has called it in her own horses - long before the vets see anything - several times now.

Also she knows Lottie so well, and she keeps extensive notes after every session, that she can spot changes very early.

 

[j1ffy]

Thank you for the videos and photos LEC! Like others, I would also have given your horse the benefit of the doubt in the dressage video, the odd mis-step could easily be put down to an uneven surface. Flora's video is far easier to spot, although I think someone who bought an older horse may think that movement is 'normal' - you wouldn't believe she had moved like the first video. My old boy Indio is probably similar now (and also used to do the odd mis-step in dressage even when mostly appearing sound - we've never found his issue, he still trots up well and passed a flexion test last month).

The bounce 'split legs' is very interesting, I'm not a big jumper these days so haven't watched a lot of horses doing bounces recently but will keep an eye on that one. Training the eye is so helpful.

 

[maya2008]

The standard of BHS training regarding spotting lameness and anything to do with young horses is shocking - as in, virtually non-existent. So of course an instructor might actually have no idea a horse is lame if it is not head nodding and obviously limping. I have in fact met BHS instructors at shows, whose own horses are lame and they have not a clue. That said, plenty of vets struggle to see subtle lameness also. They miss it in vettings, and even when called out, can tell an owner there is nothing wrong, only to find later, that the problem worsens and there was an issue after all.

 

[LEC]

Floras is actually due to the RH - the front is a distraction but mechanical due to RH. We nerve blocked the whole front leg twice with no change as started thinking it was foot and it’s gait analysis which was said effectively no issue with front leg but RH. You can see the RH when you look for it but now on a lot of lameness I really look at the hind diagonal first. Hock x rays clean so it’s suspensorys due to asymmetry behind. She had a field accident at 5 which caused bone bruising. Came back sound. The vets expected the hock to be chronically arthritic within a year (hence a lot of x rays) but they never changed. She was sound for about 2 years eventing at Novice but then had a loss of performance, she wouldn’t land on one lead jumping which is a big red flag for me and the LF developed. The RH hock had actually turned in and I think the suspensorys are from the compensation while she had bone bruising as out of work for over 8 months to give it time to heal. We all learn along the way and Flora has taught me a lot! I am now obsessed about even muscle tone, and checking for changes in stance

 

[Titchy Reindeer]

Tbh I find it baffling that owners of horses who compete and should therefore be able to afford it, don’t at least get their horses checked by a vet twice a year. I do four times as I know mine has a hock problem. I also know I am rubbish at seeing lameness.

That involves flexions, lunge hard and soft. Yet most people seem happy to wait until they have a super obvious lameness before getting a vet involved. How many horses could be saved if things were caught earlier, I wonder?

How many people get the above done once a year, let alone twice? It should be part of every vaccination at least. Yet the very sane people will spank money on bit fitters and saddle pads.

And I don’t buy the “I’d know if something was wrong” crap. Because most of us amateurs can’t see minor lameness. Very minor lameness will often have next to no symptoms until it’s developed into something more. Of all the things we spend money on for our horses, vet care should be top of the priority. Before new saddles, clinics, whatever.

I supposed it depends if you have access to a competent vet. My vet is like my GP, very nice but not very effective. In both cases, you have to know what you want and more or less demand it. My mare got an abscess in her neck after a vaccination one year and just about every vet in the practice came out to her and said rub it with alcohol, put camomile on it.... In the end it took a visiting vet coming out as a favour to a friend for another horse to tell me what needed doing for me to transmit to my vets to finally get it sorted. (I cant' simply change vet, all vet practices in the area are owned by the same partners and share vets - you can't even request a specific vet, you get what you're given). I have since found out that there are some traveling equine vets (not attached to any practice) that will come out to my area, so that is something to look into.
Both horses do see a traveling chiropractor who is also a trained vet at least once a year, more if something feels off. She was very happy with both, last time she came, especially the 26 year old (she took two years of her age in the report! A mistake, but it made me laugh).

 

[LEC]

As this is in the public domain - here is a horse who is not comfortable behind and as the exercise gets harder it’s splitting its hind legs more and more and changing behind.

This is also a good one to watch as subsequently Meg has said Jam is lame in front but the signs out out here as never lands on the left leg down the grid. I have watched a younger video and she does.

 

[Titchy Reindeer]

I have been to 3 clinics lately and seen around 6 lame/uncomfortable horses. The trainers have not mentioned anything and all reputable. I wanted to say to one trainer do you just do nothing about it?

Things like split legs in bounces, another was lame in front from bilateral lameness behind Just as most recent examples. So should trainers say something? Why are they not?

I just wanted to say thank you LEC, you've had me reaching for my videos to check on Little Madam's hind legs when jumping. To my non-expert eye on not-so-great quality videos, she doesn't look too bad. I will try and find someone to film some bounce jumps and her on the flat as well to have a better look.

 

[ester]

Thanks LEC

 

[Glitter's fun]

So should trainers say something? Why are they not?

First they would need to be very thick skinned and high in the pecking order to tell uncomfortable home truths to clients & stay in business. (Also applies to professionals telling riders they are too heavy.) Far too high a proportion will get very angry & go elsewhere.

Second, many won't notice. You don't need to prove competence to be a riding instructor (or human fitness coach, weight loss 'expert' or dog trainer). Mainly what you need is "stage presence", charisma, the ability to get people to listen & trust you and a good website.
At the top end there are people with all that plus real ability. These would recognise lameness but may or may not say something as above. Then there are genuine but mistaken practitioners who don't know as much as they think they do. Below that there are confident blarney-merchants who could probably equally turn their abilities to selling double glazing or romance fraud.

 

[Fieldlife]

I used to have an older large horse with low grade arthritis and weak SI. Vet / physio / trainer said keep him fit, well muscled and moving.

He was retired from competing but I worked him 6 days a week all year round. He was better kept working. He did have stiff days. We used bute from time to time. He sometimes came out not 100% but typically warmed up fine.

I still had occasional lessons to help me work him in the best ways to build muscle.

The acid test was always was he better or worse next day for having done something.

I knew damned well he could be short behind, as did any flatwork trainer I used. So imo it depends what issue is and how it’s being managed.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

First they would need to be very thick skinned and high in the pecking order to tell uncomfortable home truths to clients & stay in business. (Also applies to professionals telling riders they are too heavy.) Far too high a proportion will get very angry & go elsewhere.

Second, many won't notice. You don't need to prove competence to be a riding instructor (or human fitness coach, weight loss 'expert' or dog trainer). Mainly what you need is "stage presence", charisma, the ability to get people to listen & trust you and a good website.
At the top end there are people with all that plus real ability. These would recognise lameness but may or may not say something as above. Then there are genuine but mistaken practitioners who don't know as much as they think they do. Below that there are confident blarney-merchants who could probably equally turn their abilities to selling double glazing or romance fraud.

There are also those who just don't care! The BHS school I went too could certainly spot lameness and you can hardly miss a huge forest of bleeding sarcoids. They are working animals so they work till they can't or won't.

A FB infuriated me the other day. It was basically a cry out for the good old days, where strangles was no big deal, didn't need the vet and the horses were back in work within 2 weeks, where vettings were never done - after all how many of us would pass one - where a 'NQR' horse was still perfecly serviceable, where if you were sold a broncking nutcase, you got on with it and made the best of it and those ponies could a) teach you to ride and b) won loads anyway despite their behaviours, and where common sense ruled the day. The poster was clearly a high level rider but what an attitude!

 

[Glitter's fun]

There are also those who just don't care! The BHS school I went too could certainly spot lameness and you can hardly miss a huge forest of bleeding sarcoids. They are working animals so they work till they can't or won't.

A FB infuriated me the other day. It was basically a cry out for the good old days, where strangles was no big deal, didn't need the vet and the horses were back in work within 2 weeks, where vettings were never done - after all how many of us would pass one - where a 'NQR' horse was still perfecly serviceable, where if you were sold a broncking nutcase, you got on with it and made the best of it and those ponies could a) teach you to ride and b) won loads anyway despite their behaviours, and where common sense ruled the day. The poster was clearly a high level rider but what an attitude!

"Liked" your post because there isn't a button for 'don't like that but agree'.

 

[RachelFerd]

I used to have an older large horse with low grade arthritis and weak SI. Vet / physio / trainer said keep him fit, well muscled and moving.

He was retired from competing but I worked him 6 days a week all year round. He was better kept working. He did have stiff days. We used bute from time to time. He sometimes came out not 100% but typically warmed up fine.

I still had occasional lessons to help me work him in the best ways to build muscle.

The acid test was always was he better or worse next day for having done something.

I knew damned well he could be short behind, as did any flatwork trainer I used. So imo it depends what issue is and how it’s being managed.

I had to like this post. This is a topic that makes me feel torn - I think there are very, very few horses in this world who are completely sound and equal all over with no asymmetries. In fact, one of the biggest jobs we have as riders and trainers is to try and improve weakness and therefore straightness/'equalness'.

There's are some blurry lines between weakness, straightness and lameness. It's very easy to start tossing horses out onto the discard pile when that might not even be the best thing for them - where appropriate work and muscle building could improve them. I guess the key for me is - does the work that you do make incremental improvements to the horse, or does the horse get worse despite the work. Signs of weakness and lack of straightness may also come with signs of pain, because developing strength takes effort. I don't have an answer, but I'm not sure that any single group of equine professionals have all the right answers either.

 

[clinkerbuilt]

They are working animals so they work till they can't or won't.

I've had to resort to excluding one horse in my booking notes - a working livery who is at the least bilaterally lame behind. It is sad, to me, how much NQR-ness is accommodated in RS horses, but even here there is a spectrum in different locations between "carefully managed" and "sent out time after time until they break/break someone". Basically your average punter in a large or less careful centre might be trained to disregard mild lameness underneath them. Then when they buy...
I don't know what the answer is, because the motivation seems to be economic, not horsemanship based.

 

[scats]

ii

As this is in the public domain - here is a horse who is not comfortable behind and as the exercise gets harder it’s splitting its hind legs more and more and changing behind.

This is also a good one to watch as subsequently Meg has said Jam is lame in front but the signs out out here as never lands on the left leg down the grid. I have watched a younger video and she does.

That first video is pretty much what I see everyday somewhere on FB. A clearly lame horse behind and the napping for no reason excuse being thrown about. Where has basic good horsemanship gone? And if anyone dare point out that the animal isn’t right, they got absolutely crucified.
It’s no wonder there are so many broken horses out there.

 

[ownedbyaconnie]

I had to like this post. This is a topic that makes me feel torn - I think there are very, very few horses in this world who are completely sound and equal all over with no asymmetries. In fact, one of the biggest jobs we have as riders and trainers is to try and improve weakness and therefore straightness/'equalness'.

There's are some blurry lines between weakness, straightness and lameness. It's very easy to start tossing horses out onto the discard pile when that might not even be the best thing for them - where appropriate work and muscle building could improve them. I guess the key for me is - does the work that you do make incremental improvements to the horse, or does the horse get worse despite the work. Signs of weakness and lack of straightness may also come with signs of pain, because developing strength takes effort. I don't have an answer, but I'm not sure that any single group of equine professionals have all the right answers either.

I agree with this and also I think there’s such a thing as being sound enough for the job they’re doing. Older horses that are a bit stiff, maybe a bit short behind etc probably do better for being lightly hacked/schooled and kept fit and supple even if they are technically a bit lame.

i only have to miss a few weeks of Pilates/have a few weeks off riding and my back starts playing up. I do better for being kept “in work” when I go a bit lame and I’m sure this can be applied to lots of horses.

The problem is (and I will have this with my pony) is some are so stoic it’s impossible to tell how much pain that little bit of lameness is causing.

But to go back to the OP, yes there are far too many horses that are quite obviously lame in clinics/comps. I can only think of two instructors I’ve had that would stop a lesson because of it.

 

[stangs]

The problem I get is that I'll often see what I think is lameness but I can't get my suspicions confirmed. For example, I've seen several ads of young sports horses with (what looks to me*) as being a pathological way of going - where one hind doesn't step as far forward as the other, though only really visible in walk - but I can't exactly message the seller and ask them to get the horse vetted for me. So then it stays as a thought but not something I'm comfortable expressing (when the lameness is slight and there's little to no clear signs of discomfort, like tail swishing).

I told the owner of a share horse once that the horse felt off, despite looking normal, and the vet ended up finding 1/10 lameness. That's the only time I've had someone call a vet based solely on my opinion, and the only reason the owner called them out (and the only reason I felt I wouldn't be scolded for not just riding through it) was because the horse had a history of problems in that leg.

And, as RF said, lameness isn't a binary thing. But, how do you learn if something can be pushed through or not, if it's something that'll get worse or if it'll that needs ridden work to improve, when your average rider will only have a small sample size of horses where 1) they felt/saw lameness, 2) a problem was diagnosed and 3) a treatment plan was made?

*As an aside, I found another one of these horses recently - would anyone mind me PMing them the ad so I could get their opinion?

 

[teapot]

I've had to resort to excluding one horse in my booking notes - a working livery who is at the least bilaterally lame behind. It is sad, to me, how much NQR-ness is accommodated in RS horses, but even here there is a spectrum in different locations between "carefully managed" and "sent out time after time until they break/break someone". Basically your average punter in a large or less careful centre might be trained to disregard mild lameness underneath them. Then when they buy...
I don't know what the answer is, because the motivation seems to be economic, not horsemanship based.

It is economics based for a large part. Can that horse be used for x lessons or x level of rider, and only cost y amount of bute a week, while making z pounds. Trust me, it’s not fun to allocate lessons when that is floating around the office environment.

It’s something I’m incredibly torn over too as serviceably sound horses can be managed VERY well, do a job, and actually improve/remain in a good condition if kept ticking over in the correct way (ie only be ridden by those who can ride straight, off forehand etc etc). Maybe an ex comp horse that needs a quieter life and can still teach people. I’ve ridden many and I owe them a lot. Also it’s a massively underrated skill to know how to ride a slightly tight or short behind horse into one that feels like putty in 45 mins.

I take far more issue with perhaps more novice suited horses, who are beyond serviceably sound, and actually struggle say with correct canter lead, or are so unbalanced/crooked as a way of compensating your novice client then ends up having to battle to just get a canter transition, or flapping their way round a 20m circle.

That’s not fair on the horse, nor the paying client, who then thinks that’s how you ride, so the cycle continues, and when they get to ride something less broken, or fitter, or less crooked, it’s like a total revelation.

But. What do you with those horses if not allocated into lessons? Riding schools can’t afford to pay for horses to be off for six/nine/twelve months at a time (nor sometimes the time to bring them back into work correctly) so a business decision is once again made.

I won’t ever forget some of the allocating decisions I had to make all in the name of business I was savvy enough though to make sure certain horses were only used on certain surfaces. Your pro waxed arenas do nothing to help your average horse!

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Our local RS sent a few 'up the road' every year. But that is better than hammering them into the ground, when unsound imo.

 

[Fieldlife]

The problem I get is that I'll often see what I think is lameness but I can't get my suspicions confirmed. For example, I've seen several ads of young sports horses with (what looks to me*) as being a pathological way of going - where one hind doesn't step as far forward as the other, though only really visible in walk - but I can't exactly message the seller and ask them to get the horse vetted for me. So then it stays as a thought but not something I'm comfortable expressing (when the lameness is slight and there's little to no clear signs of discomfort, like tail swishing).

I told the owner of a share horse once that the horse felt off, despite looking normal, and the vet ended up finding 1/10 lameness. That's the only time I've had someone call a vet based solely on my opinion, and the only reason the owner called them out (and the only reason I felt I wouldn't be scolded for not just riding through it) was because the horse had a history of problems in that leg.

And, as RF said, lameness isn't a binary thing. But, how do you learn if something can be pushed through or not, if it's something that'll get worse or if it'll that needs ridden work to improve, when your average rider will only have a small sample size of horses where 1) they felt/saw lameness, 2) a problem was diagnosed and 3) a treatment plan was made?

*As an aside, I found another one of these horses recently - would anyone mind me PMing them the ad so I could get their opinion?

The situation you describe where one hind leg doesnt step as far as the other in a young horse, could that not be crookedness or weakness rather than a lameness issue?

 

[Fieldlife]

I guess there’s a world of difference between the rider who knows their horse is NQR and is working with a team of professionals to do what is collectively believed to be in the horse’s best interest. (Where horse has regular vet, trainer bodyworker, farrier, saddler etc all trying to improve horse).

And where horse has none of that and is NQR, being ridden snd owner is oblivious.

I have also seen many good trainers take stiff, tight hollow not very sound looking horses and help riders get them engaged, supple and connected, and then the look sound.

I’ll always remember writing for a judge for advanced test. Horse was horribly bridle lame / unlevel and wondering why judge didn’t eliminate. Same combination back in next class (inter 1), both more relaxed, and horse looked fine. Amazing difference

 

[SEL]

The situation you describe where one hind leg doesnt step as far as the other in a young horse, could that not be crookedness or weakness rather than a lameness issue?

Possibly - but I have the vet out tomorrow (snow permitting) for exactly that reason. The pony looks sound on trot up but under saddle he's making my right leg wobble about and if I insist on him being straight then he gets tetchy. It may not be lameness but I need the vet to rule that out before assuming it is young horse weakness.

I am probably more sensitive than most having had years of knowing my Appy was NQR and vets just not seeing it. I appreciate what Michen is saying above about a regular vet check but when you've hauled the horse to the vets, watched the vet nurse lunge her round crooked with the vet saying 'she looks fine', seen the same horse nearly fall over her own feet on the trot up turns and be told 'she's just not paying attention' then cynicism about whether all vets can actually see a lame horse does start to kick in (bilaterally lame behind). I retired her but it plays on my mind that if she'd had better vet input earlier would I have had a better outcome.

I sent the pony to a lameness specialist last year when her hind hoof balance got very quirky and she felt 'off' under saddle to be told they'd had to lunge her for 30 minutes to get her to go lame. Knowing how that pony lunges when she's full of herself (driving pony trot, hollow, head to outside) I couldn't even say that any lameness appearing after 30 mins wasn't related to straining something on the lunge. When I reminded the vet that she was there because she had serious lateral wear on both hinds there was silence on the end of the phone followed by a suggestion it was the farrier's fault. X-rays proved otherwise.

 

[Fieldlife]

What Ever Happened to “Serviceably” Sound?

When I first got out of veterinary school and started looking at horses prior to purchase (usually referred to as a “vet check” or a prepurchase exam), the horses usually fit into one of three categories. The first category was the horse with no problems noted at the time of the exam. That...

horsenetwork.com

 

[ifyousayso]

i Hate to say this but 99% of horses that are ridden are lame . it very rare nowadays to see a sound horse and a lot of it to blame is us because we keep horses in such unnatural conditions. The breeding industry is also to blame people are more concerned about breeding form fancy bloodline or bragging about how fancy there mares breeding but not seeing the bigger picture and forgetting/ ignoring about soundness or conformation . Majority of broodmares have a lameness issues that caused them to be retired from riding young its rare to see a sound broodmare . It should be required for Stud books should be doing mare expectations and you should only be allowed to breed a mare that is sound.

 

[Orangehorse]

Not my opinion but just a ponder- do some of these horses who appear 'lame' just have weaknesses like we do. If these horses are happy in their work and not showing pain signals could over-investigating cause more harm than good? I know a few horses who have hip dips etc who have sound and happy competition careers despite maybe not being able to pass a vetting

That is true too, particularly out hunting, where a horse might have had a fall, recovered but is left with a wonky back for instance that wouldn't pass a vetting but is OK to ride. Years ago had a fascinating talk from a well known vet on bad backs and he said just because there is something not right it doesn't mean that the horse cannot be ridden. Sometimes there is mechanical lameness too.

My vet says she sees quite a lot of hindleg lameness at dressage but she said that it is very hard for a rider to even know that the horse is lame (discussing my horse at the time for "loss of performance") and I can remember looking at a warm up class at some horse trials and thinking that one was lame on a hind leg.

My physio said she attended a training session for vets for diagnosing lameness and only 50% got it right.

A friend was telling me that she wasn't riding her horse as he was a bit lame on a small circle. "Is he OK otherwise?" I asked. "Yes" she replied. "Why not ride him in straight lines then, if the vet says its OK" - i.e. go out hacking. Which was what I did with my horse, with agreement from my vet and some Danilon if necessary.

which is what that article from the vet in the USA is saying.

 

[LEC]

As an owner of a NQR horse I do have a strong belief in letting them live happy lives doing appropriate tasks. That usually means they move from me to other people. I think my concerns on the ones I watched, was they were hitting probably the 8 on the 24 signs of pain quite easily. They were struggling with what was being asked.

 

[Fjord]

I'm hopeless at seeing lameness, unless it's obvious. When my mare was slightly lame I felt it, I couldn't see it, but she just felt 'lumpy'. She wasn't as keen, stopped trotting before being asked and just felt very slightly 'off'. It was a touch of arthritis that with remedial shoeing and supplements has so far been OK. Although now, I'm beginning to wonder again, and at 25 it might be time to think about retirement. I'll make a decision when I've lost some weight and can get on board again!

The videos are useful to watch, the jumping 10 bounces one I could see that something wasn't right in the trotting at the start, the mare just didn't look happy. Couldn't say anything more specific than that though.

I think trainers have got to be very brave and sure of themselves to turn away clients with slightly lame horses, unfortunately many owners won't listen.

 

[Fieldlife]

That is true too, particularly out hunting, where a horse might have had a fall, recovered but is left with a wonky back for instance that wouldn't pass a vetting but is OK to ride. Years ago had a fascinating talk from a well known vet on bad backs and he said just because there is something not right it doesn't mean that the horse cannot be ridden. Sometimes there is mechanical lameness too.

My vet says she sees quite a lot of hindleg lameness at dressage but she said that it is very hard for a rider to even know that the horse is lame (discussing my horse at the time for "loss of performance") and I can remember looking at a warm up class at some horse trials and thinking that one was lame on a hind leg.

My physio said she attended a training session for vets for diagnosing lameness and only 50% got it right.

A friend was telling me that she wasn't riding her horse as he was a bit lame on a small circle. "Is he OK otherwise?" I asked. "Yes" she replied. "Why not ride him in straight lines then, if the vet says its OK" - i.e. go out hacking. Which was what I did with my horse, with agreement from my vet and some Danilon if necessary.

which is what that article from the vet in the USA is saying.

I remember decades ago calling equine vet out to my horse who was a bit short one hind. Vet said there are many worse competing at affiliated dressage successfully, did I really want to start a work up etc.. I did say to vet that wasn't really the point and at the time we had no idea what the issue was.