Laminitis caught early - how long before grass?

[ycbm]

I'll try and give all the relevant info up front.

Pony is a 16 year old mini with no history of laminitis. Not carrying excessive weight, could lose a pound or two without looking poor, but not much.

She might be starting Cushing's, was very itchy at coat change last year, has been on Agnus castus since then with no issues.i will be getting her tested if she gets another lammy episode or any other symptoms.

Out on loan, loanee let the agnus castus run out and fed too low a dose of foot supplement needed to counteract high iron levels in the grass. Grazing 24/7 on sweet sheep-cropped grass.

Pony obviously sore 'a few days' after the Agnus castus ran out.

I picked her up immediately I was informed and she had to be pushed to the van. She stood camped forward when I got her home, and at that point she had been off grass, that I know of, for three days. No bute or any other medication.

She has now been home a week, back on all supplements. Still no Bute.

She's as bright as a button now, and is happily trotting round a concrete yard and on the arena. Fed unsoaked meadow haylage ad lib. She's not a greedy pony and only picks at a kilo or two in a whole day.

I'm convinced by her amazingly quick recovery that getting her back on the AC, copper, zinc and yeast has been key to this rapid turnaround.

My grazing is abundant but unfertilised, unimproved, very rough hill meadow. I do have electric fencing and could pen her with access to a smaller area if I have to.

Normal routine, if I can get it reestablished, is out at night with the two big boys, in during the day with low quality haylage, supplements in 150g of Spillers Speedy Mash (ultra low calorie feed).

So ...

When would you let her gaze again?

How would you manage it? She is at home, I can, if necessary put her out and get her in at any time of day.




Thanks in advance for your help.




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[be positive]

My sec a is similar, she lets me know she needs restricting when I see her lying down longer than normal, like yours she has never really had laminitis just being a little footy on stones is enough to bring her in and get the bit of excess weight down, I turn her back out once she is no longer footy, usually no more than 4-5 days is plenty but I do reintroduce gradually over the first few days.
I am not sure she would have free access to 'abundant' grazing during the growing season without gaining far too much weight but I do think moving about as much as possible helps keep them slimmer and more healthy.

 

[ihatework]

I’d start on an hour a day on a patch and monitor soundness/pulses for 2-3 days. Gradually increasing to half a day on a patch over next fortnight.

If all good I’d turn out overnight but in a muzzle.

 

[meleeka]

I’ve had the same with my mini. Mine is on a fairly bare track. He is only 11 but I plan on getting him tested for Cushings. He’s been put on Angus Cactus which seems to be helping with his coat and also no hint of pulses since I started it. He was barely lame because I check pulses daily anyway, so was able to get him in straight away. He was sound at walk, just a bit pottery at trot and I’m sure would have been missed by those that don’t know him. He spent a week totally off grass then I started letting him out on the track for a couple of hours for a few days before he went out overnight.

I spent a good few years restricting my mares grazing to keep laminitis at bay. Now she’s on Prascend she’s the least grass sensitive of them all so I do wish I’d had her tested sooner. Like you, the very next time my mini has raised pulses I will be testing. I’d do it now but there may be an explanation. The little bugger escaped into the secure drive the other day but cleverly let himself back before breakfast. Unlucky for him a friend spotted him, so I think he may have been doing it overnight for weeks!

I’m currently also trying to source a muzzle so they can have the rested bit of the track overnight. A small pony one didn’t go over his nose so I will borrow a friends pony size and see if I can make it small enough. I don’t think I’d ever risk turning out any of mine out on reasonable grass without one, except ironically the Cushings one.

 

[only_me]

It’s strange - I know a horse who is very early stage of lami but vet says is secondary to coffin joint effusion (hx of change) as horse isn’t obese/cresty, lives out on minimal feed, not cushingoid and didn’t present as a typical lami m but really just reluctance to move forward quickly as was sore. Still was standing resting a hind and not on heels! So horse is only to stay in for 3 days and then back out! One bute in am/pm which tbh a horse that size will barely touch them.

Suppose if your mini is comfortable and back on correct supplements then you could put her out during day/in at night to trial her?

 

[SEL]

My big boy caught me by surprise a few weeks ago. Another who has been on richer grass than this before without issue and wasn't fat. Saw him lying down in the field and thought it was colic, but very much sore feet.

He's had 2 weeks off the grass in the diet pen and I've just started reintroducing an hour in the morning, when I think its believed sugars are at their lowest. Soaked hay first so his tummy has something in it and we won't have a big insulin response to the grass. Might try AC now you've mentioned it and I've upped his magnesium.

I'd start with an hour and watch closely.

Its been a bad year for it.

 

[Goldenstar]

I would start grazing in hand for five minutes in or along side the pen you build and I would do it in the evening .
I would would work up to half an hour out in a paddock and increase gradually and see how it goes .
I think I would her sound and happy for a fortnight before I started grazing .
I know your place is quite high up and therefore it’s probaly the best possible grasses for this type of pony so with any luck your plan of out at night with the boys will work well.
I would have a Cushings test done

 

[JillA]

It's all here - have a good read. http://www.thelaminitissite.org/ As Goldenstar says, at 16 check for metabolic issues as an underlying cause, otherwise you might be wasting your time and energy

 

[paddy555]

I was in a similar postion about 6 years ago with an old hill pony mare. It was a case of her hobbling front feet outstretched into the stable where she remained on rubber matting for 3 weeks. She is now out all day and in at night and this works well. She has never had any supplements. I put her on half a tablet of prascend and she has had that for about the last 6 years. That is 50p a day which is money well spent as it is effective. My most valuable asset is easyboot RX's and she lived in those when it started. Even the slightest look from her now and the boots go instantly back on. It originally took me several weeks to get her back out all day (in at night) With prascend I get minor blimps that most would miss. Before prascend she was a serious lami case.
Mine never carried excessive weight, in fact she came to me as a starvation case. The only other possible sign of cushings was slightly runny eyes in summer but that can happen with any horse so may not even have been relevant.

In your position I would keep off grass until July when hopefully the grass should have improved a little. I would then start on 30 minutes a day and build up until September when I would try and get out all day. By that time I would probably have got the cushings sorted and medicated and hopefully with a winter out all day you can get to next spring when you will need only minimal restriction. Mine is out in a 2 acre field with her children. For her at over 30 quality of life is most important and I won't restrict her but by carefully watching her I don't need to. I put her out in the daytime so I can see her each time I look out. At night it would be far too long without being checked even though the grass may be better.
It is a bit like the tortoise and the hare, you could put out now and you may be lucky or you may end up back at square one. Very difficult decision to make.

 

[dreamcometrue]

If you suspect Cushings why not test for it? The Cushings test is free. Log onto Care about Cushings and request a voucher. Surely it is preferable to find out and get appropriate treatment rather than wait until the pony has another bout of laminitis

 

[ycbm]

If you suspect Cushings why not test for it? The Cushings test is free. Log onto Care about Cushings and request a voucher. Surely it is preferable to find out and get appropriate treatment rather than wait until the pony has another bout of laminitis

She is symptom free on agnus castus. It would be pointles at this stage to put her on pergolide, which can have some nasty side effects and costs far more.

She won't be getting another bout of laminitis, like Paddy555 I can tell long before that if a barefoot pony I check carefully twice a day is heading in the wrong direction.

I'm not sure if you are understanding that when the the pony went laminitic, she was not wth me, not being checked properly, out 24/7 on improved grass, and not being fed several things (copper, zinc, magnesium, yeast, agnus castus) that support the gut and digestion and suppress harmful hormones. She changed in 24 hours when back on the right diet.

 

[_HP_]

I have a Shetland that I suspect may be Cushings. He has been lami sensitive for a while now but is also late losing his coat this year and gets random sweats, so I'll get him tested on the next vet visit.
Angus Castus only treats some symptoms so it may be worth trying Prascend, which can also slow the progression. Not all get bad reactions ,especially if you introduce it very gradually.
Tigger is always on grass...for the most part of the year he is in with my others but during spring and autumn, I have him and my other in a 40x40(ish) well grazed down paddock with haylage if necessary. Once the grass has stopped flushing, they get to go out with the horses as and when and I just check his pulses daily. Any signs of a pulse and he's back in.

 

[paddy555]

She is symptom free on agnus castus. It would be pointles at this stage to put her on pergolide, which can have some nasty side effects and costs far more.

She won't be getting another bout of laminitis, like Paddy555 I can tell long before that if a barefoot pony I check carefully twice a day is heading in the wrong direction.

I'm not sure if you are understanding that when the the pony went laminitic, she was not wth me, not being checked properly, out 24/7 on improved grass, and not being fed several things (copper, zinc, magnesium, yeast, agnus castus) that support the gut and digestion and suppress harmful hormones. She changed in 24 hours when back on the right diet.

twice a day? it took mine just 2 hours! she was lucky I saw her. I do fully understand, I have lived with cushings for very many years in 2 horses. One was on AC, the cushings progressed in spite of that, he was also having all the supplements you describe for many years. They didn't stop or halt it's progression. I suspect yours has improved being off grass.

I am sorry I wasted my time in replying to you however, if anyone else is in this position, please get your pony tested. Cushings needs proper treatment. That treatment is prascend. I don't think 50p a day for half a tablet for a pony is expensive but some may do. As for side effects this is often mentioned but for most they can be avoided by introducing correctly and many are perfectly OK on it. As someone says AC only treats the symptoms not the progression of the disease.

 

[ycbm]

I didn't say you wasted your time replying to me Paddy555 and I have no idea why you think I did. I'm sorry you feel that way. My situation compares little to yours at the moment, however, and I did only ask for recommendation as to how to reintroduce her to grass, not the rest of her care.

The current situation is that the pony has had a bout of mild laminitis which I would have expected of any pony in the situation she was in. I don't leave a TB out full time on as lib grass, never mind a little pony.

There has been no symptom of Cushing's - by which I would mean unexplained laminitis - except itchiness last year, which could well have been lice since I also treated her for those immediately before the itching stopped.

She is on agnus castus as a precaution and is the brightest little button anyone would wish to see.

She will be tested if there ever appears to be any good reason to start her on a drug that has some serious side effects including anorexia, lethargy, diarrhea and colic and is not always tolerated. It was withdrawn from use in humans because it damages heart valves.

 

[ycbm]

If you suspect Cushings why not test for it? The Cushings test is free. Log onto Care about Cushings and request a voucher. Surely it is preferable to find out and get appropriate treatment rather than wait until the pony has another bout of laminitis

Thank you for the pointer.

That site is run by the manufacturer of the drug Prascend specifically to increase their sales of it.

The test they offer free is notoriously inaccurate and is not the one which she will be having done if she shows any more symptoms of needing it.


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[meleeka]

Thank you for the pointer.

That site is run by the manufacturer of the drug Prascend specifically to increase their sales of it.

The test they offer free is notoriously inaccurate and is not the one which she will be having done if she shows any more symptoms of needing it.


..

If she shows any symptoms of needing it’s really only for confirmation of what you already suspect and is useful for that I think. Mine has been on Prascend for 5 years so has obviously had a few. I have never gone by what the numbers say, but the horse in front of me. I increased the dose when pulses were raised without any obvious cause, and decreased when she didn’t seem to be tolerating it as well, despite the numbers recommending otherwise. I’m certain my pony wouldn’t be here now if it wasn’t for prascend and she also wouldn’t have the quality of life that she does.

 

[ycbm]

If she shows any symptoms of needing it’s really only for confirmation of what you already suspect and is useful for that I think. Mine has been on Prascend for 5 years so has obviously had a few. I have never gone by what the numbers say, but the horse in front of me. I increased the dose when pulses were raised without any obvious cause, and decreased when she didn’t seem to be tolerating it as well, despite the numbers recommending otherwise. I’m certain my pony wouldn’t be here now if it wasn’t for prascend and she also wouldn’t have the quality of life that she does.

Exactly what I am doing. Thank you.


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[paddy555]

Thank you for the pointer.

That site is run by the manufacturer of the drug Prascend specifically to increase their sales of it.

The test they offer free is notoriously inaccurate and is not the one which she will be having done if she shows any more symptoms of needing it.


..

I am sorry and whilst I agree that in some cases the test is inaccurate and further action is required I find your middle para to be total rubbish and could only be written by someone who has no experience of a cushings horse. I am sure they make a profit from it however in the meantime they have also saved many of our horses from being PTS far sooner than they should.
Your pony has the major symptom of cushings and also the most deadliest ie laminitis. You may think it can be explained because she was left on grass but you don't take into account a possible underlying reason.

As for the comments in your final para re the side effects have you personal experience of using prascend on your horses or is that just what you have read on the internet where anyone can write anything. Many of us are using prascend and the only side effect is to get our horse back to how it should be.

As for your original question re putting it back on grass then the only answer is to find out what the problem is before you can work out how to deal with it.
Re your first para your situation compared EXACTLY to the one I was in. The only difference was that I had the experience to realise cushings could be involved and to do something about it.

 

[Goldenstar]

Who else would offer a free test apart from the people making the drug ?
It seems like a bad reason not to have it done .
Personally I would rather have a test and give a tested drug than feed a herb that’s had no testing what so ever .

 

[ycbm]

Can people please note that I asked for thoughts on how soon to let her try grass again. I did not ask for instructions on how to manage my pony. Feel free to give it, in case other people are interested, but please don't expect me to be grateful for it or to want a discussion with you about it.

Thanks to everyone who has answered the question and set my mind at rest that I will be far from alone in believing that we can try short spells quite soon.

.

 

[ycbm]

Who else would offer a free test apart from the people making the drug ?
It seems like a bad reason not to have it done .
Personally I would rather have a test and give a tested drug than feed a herb that’s had no testing what so ever .

It isn't free. The call out and blood sample will cost at least £75, and if I'm going to pay that I would rather pay for the better test.

If you would rather give a drug which is proven to cause heart valve breakdown, anorexia, diarrhea and colic and is banned in use in humans except in special circumstances, than a herb that has been in use for centuries, commonly called 'Monks Pepper' for its hormone damping abilities, then you are free to do that.

But please stop lecturing me when I didn't ask for your advice 😜

 

[Goldenstar]

It isn't free. The call out and blood sample will cost at least £75, and if I'm going to pay that I would rather pay for the better test.

If you would rather give a drug which is proven to cause heart valve breakdown, anorexia, diarrhea and colic and is banned in use in humans except in special circumstances, than a herb that has been in use for centuries, commonly called 'Monks Pepper' for its hormone damping abilities, then you are free to do that.

But please stop lecturing me when I didn't ask for your advice 😜

I am not lecturing you I am expressing an opinion something that I would expect you to understand .

 

[Ellietotz]

Really interesting seeing some of these posts about their mini's suffering from Cushings. My greedy sod of a mini doesn't seem footy or sore in any way currently, he hasn't got the cresty neck or fat pads that are apparently symptoms for Cushings but I did have to clip him out and I think if I hadn't, he would still have a full winter coat, it also seems to be growing back like mad already. It was coming out but very very slow and his skin was awful. He was so itchy, he had scratched his neck raw. Since clipping and bathing in insecticidal shampoo, coat conditioner, wormed and de-loused (he had giant worms coming out in his dropping after he was wormed), his skin is loads better, still get flakes coming up in places and the roots of his mane are still dandruffy but no where near as bad. The farrier said his feet were fine too and no signs of laminitis. However, he is 16 too so not sure if this would make a difference.
Does this sound like Cushings or just a mini that was poorly looked after previously? I've only had him a couple of months.

Sorry to jump on your thread YCBM. I could see you had success with AC so may consider this. Regarding your question, if she seems to be back to her happy self, I'd start introducing grazing now, could you start with a small sectioned off area or track and gradually expand depending on how she is?

 

[paddy555]

It isn't free. The call out and blood sample will cost at least £75, and if I'm going to pay that I would rather pay for the better test.

If you would rather give a drug which is proven to cause heart valve breakdown, anorexia, diarrhea and colic and is banned in use in humans except in special circumstances, than a herb that has been in use for centuries, commonly called 'Monks Pepper' for its hormone damping abilities, then you are free to do that.

But please stop lecturing me when I didn't ask for your advice 😜

firstly no one with experience of laminitis can answer your grass question with any degree of accuracy as you do not know what is wrong with the pony.

However the important point for me is your replies. You often give advice on veterinary matters. Possibly some people, who need help and have limited knowledge, take that advice at face value. I have even seen your posts when you even suggest ACTH testing. Not sure why if the test is rubbish.

Reading your posts on here, especially about prascend and testing, makes me seriously wonder about the extent of some of your knowledge.

I can see you may think the ACTH test to be pointless and TRH would be better. (that is something only your vet can advise on) . What I cannot understand is how an experienced person with a 16yo laminitic pony would not use one of the tests. Yes it is expensive as you have to pay call out and blood draw. This seems to be all about money.

PS I am not lecturing you merely stating my opinion.

 

[holeymoley]

I would personally do the test to know exactly what you’re dealing with. There’s no point putting her back out to grass gradually if there’s a reason she can’t cope with it. I don’t think you need to start prascend if she’s confirmed(unsure on that) if you’re happy managing her the way she is, however I would for peace of mind like to know that there could be a trigger if she was to get it in the future.

I’m over £2k in vet bills at the moment rehabbing my guy through the worst experience of laminitis ever which happened in November and he tested positive for insulin resistance and negative for cushings. If you’re girl is a decent weight but getting footy then to me there’s an underlying problem there that you need to be aware of.

 

[ycbm]

In have never suggested ACTH testing Paddy555. I have often suggested testing for Cushing's, test not specified, in cases with unexplained foot tenderness and the moment I have a horse with unexplained foot tenderness I will be taking that advice myself.

.

 

[ycbm]

Sorry to jump on your thread YCBM. I could see you had success with AC so may consider this. Regarding your question, if she seems to be back to her happy self, I'd start introducing grazing now, could you start with a small sectioned off area or track and gradually expand depending on how she is?

No problem ET

That's my plan. I'm not sure whether the agnus castus does anything or not, since the only symptom she had, itching, was treated with insecticide as well, at the same time. But I do know that the loanee ran out, that she came ragingly into season and crashed with laminitis in the following few days. Agnus castus is also used to help moody mares and is known to suppress hormones and It's never good to suddenly stop something like that. I was very cross with the loanee.

 

[Goldenstar]

Not giving advice just stating an opinion ,when a horse presents with one the major complications ( laminitis) of a condition ( cushings ) with the equine smack bang in the age group when you begin to see the condition testing for the condition seems to me to the sensible way forward
In fact I can’t think of any good reason not too .

 

[ycbm]

Not giving advice just stating an opinion ,when a horse presents with one the major complications ( laminitis) of a condition ( cushings ) with the equine smack bang in the age group when you begin to see the condition testing for the condition seems to me to the sensible way forward
In fact I can’t think of any good reason not too .

Laminitis is only symptomatic or Cushing's when it is unexplained. This pony has been badly managed, and when she was back in my care she went back to normal in 24 hours. There is a complete plague of laminitis around at the moment. They don't all have Cushing's.

I think my reason is excellent

I have no intention of medicating an animal with a drug with serious side effects until it shows symptoms which need that medication. Those are not currently present.


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[Goldenstar]

No one suggested medicating a horse that did not test positive for anything .
You might think waiting and seeing if the pony gets lami again is a good idea I think it’s a terrible one .
That’s my opinion .