Laminitis caught early - how long before grass?

[ycbm]

There is zero point in testing unless I intend to medicate. And I will repeat that I am not medicating a horse which has no symptoms with a drug with serious side effects.

The pony won't get lami again, I will spot any changes long before that point.

But thank you for your advice.

..

 

[_HP_]

Really interesting seeing some of these posts about their mini's suffering from Cushings. My greedy sod of a mini doesn't seem footy or sore in any way currently, he hasn't got the cresty neck or fat pads that are apparently symptoms for Cushings but I did have to clip him out and I think if I hadn't, he would still have a full winter coat, it also seems to be growing back like mad already. It was coming out but very very slow and his skin was awful. He was so itchy, he had scratched his neck raw. Since clipping and bathing in insecticidal shampoo, coat conditioner, wormed and de-loused (he had giant worms coming out in his dropping after he was wormed), his skin is loads better, still get flakes coming up in places and the roots of his mane are still dandruffy but no where near as bad. The farrier said his feet were fine too and no signs of laminitis. However, he is 16 too so not sure if this would make a difference.
Does this sound like Cushings or just a mini that was poorly looked after previously? I've only had him a couple of months.

Sorry to jump on your thread YCBM. I could see you had success with AC so may consider this. Regarding your question, if she seems to be back to her happy self, I'd start introducing grazing now, could you start with a small sectioned off area or track and gradually expand depending on how she is?

Sounds like a mini that was poorly looked after..
.laminitis is one possible symptom of Cushings but there are many others that they may or may not have. My welshie has Cushings, has never had laminitis but does have a few other symptoms like excessive coat, late to shed ,lethargy and weight loss.
I have two minis and they are always the last around here to lose their coats so that alone wouldn't make me suspicious.
Cushings shouldn't be diagnosed by the test alone....it should always be diagnosed alongside symptoms.

 

[windand rain]

Personally any sign of foot pain mine are off grass and (feet protected with padsfor a few days) for the full 30 days but then I am super cautious of laminitis as the next time will be the last for my boy

 

[_HP_]

Laminitis....first thing to do is find the cause and treat it.
Late shedding , itchiness and laminitis are three possible symptoms. The pony was 'obviously footy a couple of days after the Angus Castus ran out'. Angus Castus, as you know, is often used as alternative to pergolide to treat Cushings but unlike Pergolide, only treats the symptoms not the progression.
This is why I suggested testing.

 

[stencilface]

My 12.3 was on full box rest for 2 weeks following lami at Easter, he doesn't sound as uncomfortable as yours but we put him on bute for a few days on vets advice. On 2 small soaked nets a day. Tested for EMS, but negative. Then out in the day on a bald paddock (total bare bare earth from being trashed over winter) with soaked hay and was comfortable, he went nuts when turned out lol.

Then I started doing out on the grass for an hour, increasing over a week, working up to turning out overnight (on an eaten down 1.5 acres with 3 horses) and in on the bald paddock with unsealed hay in the day.

My horse who is bf, susceptible to lgl with pulses tested positive for EMS. I could kick myself for not doing it 3 years ago when I had him Cushing's tested!

 

[stencilface]

Remind me what the copper does? Fat pony is now on protexin and probalance. Desperately trying to get him ridden (see saddle post lol) in addition to lunging and being lead from my horse as I've eaten too much and I'm too fat for him, soaked hay for me too!

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I would keep the pony in until I had had it tested for PPID and I would have the TRH Stim test, as that is more accurate. Should the test come back negative, I would thank my lucky stars and consider the cost of the test money well spent to be able to rule it out.

 

[windand rain]

I would keep the pony in until I had had it tested for PPID and I would have the TRH Stim test, as that is more accurate. Should the test come back negative, I would thank my lucky stars and consider the cost of the test money well spent to be able to rule it out.

can you do any of these tests without a blood sample as the only reason we havent tested him is because you cannot get near him with a needle unless he is severe pain and cannot run away or attack you

 

[stencilface]

can you do any of these tests without a blood sample as the only reason we havent tested him is because you cannot get near him with a needle unless he is severe pain and cannot run away or attack you

My pony is the same, took sedalin (ineffective) two muscular sedatives and a blind fold to get him still enough for s blood test. Now I'm trying to train him with a clicker reward after I pinch him really hard

 

[ycbm]

Remind me what the copper does? Fat pony is now on protexin and probalance. Desperately trying to get him ridden (see saddle post lol) in addition to lunging and being lead from my horse as I've eaten too much and I'm too fat for him, soaked hay for me too!

The copper counteracts the very high levels of iron and manganese in our water and forage. They take up the 'space' in the gut for absorbing copper, leaving the animal copper deficient, which disrupts the insulin control and causes laminitis and other issues.

..

 

[ycbm]

Pony is bright and chirpy, no issues with late shedding, no thirst, no muscle wastage, no increase in belly, no itching. Bad management thankfully caught very early.

one of the things copper deficiency causes is coat colour fading, and she probably isn't as dark as last year, now I come to think of it. I must check my photos.

 

[paddy555]

My pony is the same, took sedalin (ineffective) two muscular sedatives and a blind fold to get him still enough for s blood test. Now I'm trying to train him with a clicker reward after I pinch him really hard

they should not be sedated before an ACTH test. There is an instruction about this somewhere that I believe came from Liphook.

 

[RHM]

I had one once that came down with laminitis again a known cause (managed to get into some woodland and devour a pheasant feeder). The vet said to me at the time (was about 10 years ago) to leave him in for three weeks on soaked hay/straw then give him free rein of the yard to potter about in for the next two weeks (there was a grass verge) and then turn him out into small paddock after this. Worked fine for us and he never had it again since. Hope that’s helpful! If you have rough grazing I presume you would be able to turnout sooner though! Hope she is feeling better in herself!

 

[ycbm]

I have been looking up pergolide. There is no evidence that it does any more than suppress symptoms, it's entirely unproven that it halts the progress of the disease and there is no proven benefit, but some proven risk, to putting an asymptomatic pony onto it. She will go onto it if there is ever any sign that she actually needs it.

She has been reintroduced to some grass and I will update how that goes in a week or two.

Thanks to everyone for trying to help.

 

[Megan V1]

My 15 year old mini is showing signs of being footy and farrier has confirmed it's laminitis, never had it before and is not overweight. I have brought her in and she has stayed in for nearly a month now. Turned her out for an hour today and she is walking well, had trouble catching her to get her back in, will do this for a week or two until contractor comes in to fence small paddock for her and her two little friends who are overweight so also on restricted grass. Hate having to keep them in but needs must.

 

[Sandstone1]

they should not be sedated before an ACTH test. There is an instruction about this somewhere that I believe came from Liphook.

I think thats correct. Stress also effects the results.

 

[windand rain]

I think thats correct. Stress also effects the results.

So getting 6 burly men to sit on his head wouldn't work either no problem then will just leave him be he is on borrowed time anyway

 

[paddy555]

So getting 6 burly men to sit on his head wouldn't work either no problem then will just leave him be he is on borrowed time anyway

nope I don't think the 6 men would work, all you can do, if you suspect cushings for those sort of nervous horses, is to trial prascend for a few months.

 

[stencilface]

they should not be sedated before an ACTH test. There is an instruction about this somewhere that I believe came from Liphook.

Interesting, obviously the vets never said anything!! I might ring and ask as she was surprised he didn't test positive as he did to my shame have fat pads. He isbeing managed with the one with EMS so hopefully it will be alright.

 

[Cat91]

I went to a vet lecture on laminitis last week and apparently it is always symptomatic - whether it be endocrine, inflammatory or weight bearing - so I'd always get a horse or pony tested if they did have a bout of it so that we could pinpoint the underlying cause.

I'd start by putting out for a short time on hardly any grass then increase the time she spends out gradually, at least then she won't be able to gorge as much as she would if she was on longer grass. My guy's a pain in the butt because he's overweight, won't keep a muzzle on but needs to be out but if I restrict his grazing time too much he'll just eat as much in 3 hours as he would have done in 8. He tends to regulate himself better the longer he spends out.

 

[Tiddlypom]

So getting 6 burly men to sit on his head wouldn't work either no problem then will just leave him be he is on borrowed time anyway

ACTH levels rise in response to stress, so pony might falsely test positive/register higher levels than normal if this method was employed!

Vets can and do sometimes suggest prascend trials for symptomatic equines who can’t be tested for various reasons.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

If you suspect Cushings why not test for it? The Cushings test is free. Log onto Care about Cushings and request a voucher. Surely it is preferable to find out and get appropriate treatment rather than wait until the pony has another bout of laminitis

Sorry to jump on the post, I suspect one of mine may have Cushings. My vets said the cost was £130 ish and haven't got round to it yet. I've requested a online voucher from the site you said, thank you for the help, its interesting as he has a few symptoms. My vets did not mention this website.
Does this just cover lab fees? My vets out in a fortnight so thought about asking him to do it then.

 

[Tiddlypom]

The voucher covers just the lab fees, so you have to pay the vet’s call out fee plus for the blood pull. This is a procedure to book for a free visit/zone day if your vets offer such a thing.

 

[paddy555]

Interesting, obviously the vets never said anything!! I might ring and ask as she was surprised he didn't test positive as he did to my shame have fat pads. He isbeing managed with the one with EMS so hopefully it will be alright.

my vet had no idea they should not be sedated before testing and from the many times people have asked this question on cushings groups neither do some other vets.

 

[_HP_]

my vet had no idea they should not be sedated before testing and from the many times people have asked this question on cushings groups neither do some other vets.

It's scary how many vets don't seem to know this. My vets suggested getting my mare tested after she's been sedated for a dental procedure both of which might have sent the results into orbit

 

[_HP_]

I have been looking up pergolide. There is no evidence that it does any more than suppress symptoms, it's entirely unproven that it halts the progress of the disease and there is no proven benefit, but some proven risk, to putting an asymptomatic pony onto it. She will go onto it if there is ever any sign that she actually needs it.

She has been reintroduced to some grass and I will update how that goes in a week or two.

Thanks to everyone for trying to help.

I don't think anyone has suggested putting an asymptomatic pony on pergolide. Cushing's should only be diagnosed alongside symptoms.
It was your mention of Angus Castus and Cushings, holding onto her coat and laminitis that prompted me to suggest testing☺

 

[paddy555]

It's scary how many vets don't seem to know this. My vets suggested getting my mare tested after she's been sedated for a dental procedure both of which might have sent the results into orbit

heard that so many times, lets do the teeth and then test.

 

[paddy555]

I have been looking up pergolide. There is no evidence that it does any more than suppress symptoms, it's entirely unproven that it halts the progress of the disease and there is no proven benefit, but some proven risk, to putting an asymptomatic pony onto it.

This post is in response to your comments. It is not intended to you but for anyone who may misread your comments or may misunderstand the situation. The quote below is taken from the Liphook site from their article about cushings (PPID). It explains about pergolide (prascend)


"Fortunately effective treatment for PPID is available in the form of pergolide (Prascend) and this drug has been licensed specifically for horses recently. Pergolide stimulates receptors in the brain and thereby replaces the activity of the damaged nerve supply to the pituitary gland. This results in reduction of hormone production to normal levels. The dose range is wide so the improvement in clinical signs and ACTH levels is often used to determine the best dose rate for each horse.

Pergolide is considered a safe drug. The most common side effect is reversible loss of appetite when treatment is started. This often resolves when pergolide is stopped and then re-started at a lower dose, before being increased more gradually until the ACTH level is within the normal range.


A number of natural remedies have been suggested as treatments for PPID but none have been proven to be effective. Only one, a chasteberry (Vitex agnus castus) extract, has been tested in a controlled manner and it failed to resolve clinical signs or improve diagnostic test results in 14 horses. Subsequent treatment of the same horses with pergolide was effective in all but one case."


the article is here.
https://liphookequinehospital.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/cushings.pdf

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I have been looking up pergolide. There is no evidence that it does any more than suppress symptoms, it's entirely unproven that it halts the progress of the disease and there is no proven benefit, but some proven risk, to putting an asymptomatic pony onto it. She will go onto it if there is ever any sign that she actually needs it.

She has been reintroduced to some grass and I will update how that goes in a week or two.

Thanks to everyone for trying to help.

That is my understanding of pergolide too, although I have been 'corrected' on here. However it certainly made a difference to the symptoms when my Draft mare was put on it. She was on it for just over a year before she became ataxic and had to be pts.

All the best for your pony.

We had a cob who got laminitis along with a post-birth infection. We dealt with her appropriately (I can't remember timescales) and she never had it again in all her 31 years.


ETA, I was interested to read the link above, which does not say that pergolide reverses/cures/affects the progression of the condition but does say that it contols the symptoms.

 

[Goldenstar]

It’s a bit like Levothyroxine it won’t cure my underactive thyriod but it makes huge difference to my well being but of course it has some side effects .
Most Effective drugs have side effects .