Laminitis caught early - how long before grass?

[meleeka]

It’s a bit like Levothyroxine it won’t cure my underactive thyriod but it makes huge difference to my well being but of course it has some side effects .
Most Effective drugs have side effects .

Since this thread had now moved on to Prascend, I’ll give my opinion (I realise it’s not relevant to you OP but might help someone else searching for information).
In my experience the side effects are nowhere near as bad as the symptoms of Cushings. I was advised after her blood test to put my mare up to 2 tablets. I did this and she became depressed so I went back down to 1 1/2. This seems to be the perfect dose to control her symptoms (laminitis and just ‘getting old’) but there aren’t any side effects. For me it’s about quality of life and finding the balance that she’s happy with. People are always very surprised when I say she’s 25 and has had Cushings for over 5 years now. In conclusion if anyone is in the situation of considering it, please do, it’s not any more expensive than a good supplement and can be a wonder drug for the majority.

 

[ycbm]

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It’s a bit like Levothyroxine it won’t cure my underactive thyriod but it makes huge difference to my well being but of course it has some side effects .
Most Effective drugs have side effects .

But nobody takes them or gives them to an animal when there are no symptoms.

 

[Tiddlypom]

ETA, I was interested to read the link above, which does not say that pergolide reverses/cures/affects the progression of the condition but does say that it contols the symptoms.

The condition will progress, but according to my vet getting an affected horse stabilised on a suitable dose of Prascend early on will mean that the horse can lead an effectively normal and healthy life for much longer than if treatment is started late, when the horse is already sick.

This is why I got Tammy tested at age 11. She wasn’t showing much in the way of signs, but was perhaps a little dull. Getting a +ve result back was a bummer (ACTH was 55 in Feb ‘17, shouldn’t have been more than 29) but she went straight on 1 Prascend a day, suffered no side effects and hasn’t looked back. She’s now 13. I’m not sure when she’d have shown any major symptoms such as laminitis, itchy or curly coat or excessive thirst, but I do know that she’d be a sicker horse now if she hadn’t started the treatment when she did. There is a lot more going on internally with an untreated Cushing’s horse than is visible on the outside (again, according to my vet).

 

[splashgirl45]

when i asked my vet to test mine for cushings she said she didnt look like a cushings horse. i felt she was depressed and was a little slow losing her coat the test came back at 172 so very high so i dont know how long she d had it. she went on to 1 tablet a day and after about 4 weeks she was back to her perky self..she was then tested twice each year to keep a check on her levels... it meant that she could have a normal life and i made sure that she was on very low sugar feeds. she had 5 years like this but towards the end her levels were rising quite quickly and she was on 4 tablets daily and the last test showed her in the 60's and it should have been under 29....leahurst said not to increase the tablets as cushings was now so advanced, she had a good summer and was PTS in september as she was slightly footy , the vet thought she was likely to get laminitis if she wasnt kept in and i decided that quality of life was more important , if she had been younger without arthritis i would not have PTS.. prascend doesnt stop the progress of the disease and only treats the symptoms...

 

[paddy555]

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But nobody takes them or gives them to an animal when there are no symptoms.

I think the answer to this is that you don't regard laminitis as a potential symptom of cushings and people who are more familiar with the disease do. Of course you wouldn't take tablets for an illness you didn't have but if you had a symptom of that illness you would rule the illness out first.

 

[ycbm]

I think the answer to this is that you don't regard laminitis as a potential symptom of cushings and people who are more familiar with the disease do. Of course you wouldn't take tablets for an illness you didn't have but if you had a symptom of that illness you would rule the illness out first.

Laminitis with no obvious cause is a symptom of Cushing's. Laminitis with obvious cause is just laminitis , like thousands of badly managed horses and ponies in this country have right now.

The pony has NO SYMPTOMS of Cushing's and has been out at grass several hours a day for several days with no issues.

So please, please get off my flipping back 😜


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[Tiddlypom]

Laminitis with no obvious cause is a symptom of Cushing's. Laminitis with obvious cause is just laminitis , like thousands of badly managed horses and ponies in this country have right now.

The pony has NO SYMPTOMS of Cushing's and has been out at grass several hours a day for several days with no issues.

So please, please get off my flipping back 😜


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So is the mini which you posted about recently on another thread, and which you said you thought probably had Cushing’s a different mini to this one? You advised the OP in that thread to get her horse tested.

https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/horse-holding-onto-its-winter-coat.775852/#post-14001593

I definitely would. I think my mini probably has it because she was very slow to lose her coat last year and itchy with it. I've put her on agnus castus and she's lost it better this year and isn't itchy.

 

[Goldenstar]

I have been looking up pergolide. There is no evidence that it does any more than suppress symptoms, it's entirely unproven that it halts the progress of the disease and there is no proven benefit, but some proven risk, to putting an asymptomatic pony onto it. She will go onto it if there

No one has suggested you give prascend to a horse without testing to see if the horse cushings .
I test all my older horses every year .

 

[Tiddlypom]

No one has suggested you give prascend to a horse without testing to see if the horse cushings .
I test all my older horses every year .

Tammy’s PPID was picked up in my then new regime of getting all horses age 10 or over tested annually. I wasn’t expecting it to yield a +ve result, but it did, and we were able to initiate medication and management changes earlier than if I had not done so.

Some horses do react badly to Prascend even if it’s introduced gradually, but plenty are fine on it.

 

[ycbm]

No one has suggested you give prascend to a horse without testing to see if the horse cushings .
I test all my older horses every year .

No, but you have suggested that I give Prascend to a pony who is asymptomatic. And the only reason to do that is if it has the capability of slowing the progress of the disease, which it doesn't.

So I'd be grateful if you'd get off my back as well 😝

 

[ihatework]

YMCA can do what the hell she likes with her horse because, well, it’s hers.

But for anyone else reading this thread, if you have a horse that has shown itchiness, delayed coat shedding and laminitis (even if exacerbated by poor management) you should consider these might be symptoms of cushings and consider having your horse tested to rule it out.

The tests aren’t perfect and the drugs aren’t always side effect free, but you know what - I’d accept the relatively low cost to rule it in/out and the risks over a potentially life or death situation from a big laminitis attack if the horse in question does have cushings.

 

[Goldenstar]

Of course ymca can exactly what she wants with her pony .

I suggest ymca pops me on user ignore

 

[ycbm]

https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/...ng-onto-its-winter-coat.775852/#post-14001593[/QUOTE]



Yes, that's the one, I did think she was a bit slow last year but I was assured that many hairy natives lose their coats later than others, and that since she did lose it completely and the new coat was normal that it wasn't an issue. Hash Rouge's pony was still in full winter woollies, which is why i said yes when she put up a thread specifically to ask if she should test.

If mine had been in winter woollies more than a week into May, she would already have been tested.

The itching might have been hormones (Cushing's or other) or fleas, because I flea treated her and gave her Agnus Castus at the same time. She isn't itchy this year.

This pony is SYMPTOM FREE.

The only reason to test is to give pergolide. The only reason to give pergolide to an asymptomatic horse is if it slows the progress of the disease. It doesn't.

When she has symptoms, they will be treated.

She has had grass every evening for the last five days and is as happy as Larry.

There's a bunch of you here hoping my pony will crash with laminitis so you can say 'we told you so!'. Will you please get off wishing my pony ill so you can prove yourselves right!

.

 

[ycbm]

Of course ymca can exactly what she wants with her pony .

I suggest ymca pops me on user ignore

You wrote a post directly to me, how would that work? Wouldn't it just be easier if you didn't write telling me what to do 🤣 ?

 

[ycbm]

YMCA can do what the hell she likes with her horse because, well, it’s hers.

But for anyone else reading this thread, if you have a horse that has shown itchiness, delayed coat shedding and laminitis (even if exacerbated by poor management) you should consider these might be symptoms of cushings and consider having your horse tested to rule it out.

The tests aren’t perfect and the drugs aren’t always side effect free, but you know what - I’d accept the relatively low cost to rule it in/out and the risks over a potentially life or death situation from a big laminitis attack if the horse in question does have cushings.

Cost is not an issue.


It is perfectly clear from what Tiddlypom posted above that I DO consider it and I HAVE considered it. She may well have it, but pergolide doesn't stop the progress of the disease and I won't put her on it while she has no symptoms. If she does have Cushing's then the Agnus Castus is on top of it and pergolide is not currently required.


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[paddy555]

No, but you have suggested that I give Prascend to a pony who is asymptomatic. And the only reason to do that is if it has the capability of slowing the progress of the disease, which it doesn't.

So I'd be grateful if you'd get off my back as well 😝

as IHW says your horse do what the hell you like. Suggesting people are waiting for your pony to crash is ridiculous.


However for anyone else, and that is the important part here. Prascend does slow the progression of the disease. My horse has been on prascend since 2012. If he had not had it he would have had to be PTS within the year. Since prascend he has done many thousands of ridden miles. That was 7 years ago so the point that it doesn't slow the progress of the disease is rubbish.

The second point, for anyone else, is that the pony has had laminitis which is a major symptom. Explained or not it is a major symptom and it is the one that usually results in a bullet.
OP can do what she likes and if she is too stupid to wake up and test then so be it. However if anyone else has laminitis please consider testing. It may just save your horse's life.

OP my remarks are not addressed at you but in the hope it helps anyone else. However would you please do us all a favour and stop posting rubbish and misinformation. Prascend slows the progress of cushings. Many people could write similar comments because they can see the results.

 

[ihatework]

It is perfectly clear from what Tiddlypom posted above that I DO consider it and I HAVE considered it.

What I am not prepared to do is give drugs to a pony with no symptoms. If she does have Cushing's then the Agnus Castus is on top of it and pergolide is not required.


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Like I said - you can do what the hell you like with your horse.

But I do think it’s a bit sick to suggest people are wishing your pony ill. Maybe some of the people have lost dearly loved horses to cushings/laminitis and are fine tuned to it and actually do not want your pony to get Ill/worse. A little bit like every stuffy horse you read about needs to be treated for PSSM?

 

[Goldenstar]

You really are strange how you can possibly think that’s a discussion around the sunject of cushings testing is wishing your pony ill I just can’t work out .

 

[ycbm]

as IHW says your horse do what the hell you like. Suggesting people are waiting for your pony to crash is ridiculous.


However for anyone else, and that is the important part here. Prascend does slow the progression of the disease. My horse has been on prascend since 2012. If he had not had it he would have had to be PTS within the year. Since prascend he has done many thousands of ridden miles. That was 7 years ago so the point that it doesn't slow the progress of the disease is rubbish.

The second point, for anyone else, is that the pony has had laminitis which is a major symptom. Explained or not it is a major symptom and it is the one that usually results in a bullet.
OP can do what she likes and if she is too stupid to wake up and test then so be it. However if anyone else has laminitis please consider testing. It may just save your horse's life.

OP my remarks are not addressed at you but in the hope it helps anyone else. However would you please do us all a favour and stop posting rubbish and misinformation. Prascend slows the progress of cushings. Many people could write similar comments because they can see the results.

Prascend/pergolide does not slow the progress of the disease. No scientific testing has been able to show that it does.

It may appear to, because it is very effective at suppressing symptoms. That's what you have described. And that's when it should be given, when you have symptoms.


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[ycbm]

You really are strange.

That's true 🤣 !

 

[ycbm]

Like I said - you can do what the hell you like with your horse.

But I do think it’s a bit sick to suggest people are wishing your pony ill. Maybe some of the people have lost dearly loved horses to cushings/laminitis and are fine tuned to it and actually do not want your pony to get Ill/worse. A little bit like every stuffy horse you read about needs to be treated for PSSM?

Fair point.

Feels like an onslaught from where I'm sitting though. The same point made over and over and over again, with the same reasonable, logical and researched answers given time and time again, to no effect.

And I only posted asking when other people would put the pony back on grass, I never even asked for this advice, never mind page after page of the same and stalking me on other threads too 😜



Please everyone, use the thread to give whatever general advice to forum users you want, but I wish you would stop endlessly saying you think I should test this pony, because I heard you the first time. And the moment she has symptoms she will be tested.



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[paddy555]

Fair point.

Feels like an onslaught from where I'm sitting though. The same point made over and over and over again, with the same reasonable, logical and well researched answers given time and time again, to no effect.




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alternatively the same advice given over and over again from experienced owners with the same answer.
Just once more, laminitis is a major symptom of cushings. The pony may not have cushings BUT she has a major symptom. She also has her age. Wouldn't you be testing a 16yo just in case?

I am certainly not stalking you on any other thread but I think it would be helpful to you if you blocked my posts.

I do echo one of IHWs comments. I was one of the people who lost a beloved horse to cushings induced laminitis. I lost it due to simple ignorance when all the current info was not available and vets were less clued up. After that I educated myself.
If you end up in the situation with cushings induced laminitis it goes downhill so fast you do not have a chance, it just takes over and there is only one solution.

The risk of that for a test of around £100 and, at the worst, 50p a day for half a pink pill. I know which I would choose.

 

[ycbm]

alternatively the same advice given over and over again from experienced owners with the same answer.
Just once more, laminitis is a major symptom of cushings. The pony may not have cushings BUT she has a major symptom. She also has her age. Wouldn't you be testing a 16yo just in case?

I am certainly not stalking you on any other thread but I think it would be helpful to you if you blocked my posts.

I do echo one of IHWs comments. I was one of the people who lost a beloved horse to cushings induced laminitis. I lost it due to simple ignorance when all the current info was not available and vets were less clued up. After that I educated myself.
If you end up in the situation with cushings induced laminitis it goes downhill so fast you do not have a chance, it just takes over and there is only one solution.

The risk of that for a test of around £100 and, at the worst, 50p a day for half a pink pill. I know which I would choose.

How can I answer the questions you put directly to me if I put you on UI 🤣 ?

Why are you giving the same advice over and over when you have been told very clearly that it isn't wanted? I don't see that you have anything to complain about that I answer you if you keep posting!

No Paddy. unexplained laminitis is a symptom of Cushing's. Laminitis in a pony which has been left out on sweet grass 24/7 with an old mare who barely moves, and not fed four supplementary items that she was supposed to have is just a compete!y predictable case of laminitis.

As is proved by the fact that the pony has been on grass for five evenings in a row, has cold feet and no pulses and is as bright as a button and went galloping around the field with the big boys when she escaped this morning.

No, I wouldn't be testing her 'just in case' when the only reason to test would be to be able to put her on a drug which only treats the symptoms and does not stop the progression of the disease. When she has NO symptoms.

How many more times do I have to explain this before you stop asking? None, I sincerely hope.



...

 

[_HP_]

Angus Castus can improve some symptoms and may be why your pony is now shedding and Itch free but she could still have Cushing's. However, she may not and it's totally your call obviously. I, like others on here are just putting the info out there for others that maybe reading.

 

[Micky]

PPID currently cannot be cured, but can be treated with daily oral administration of a dopamine agonist such as pergolide (licensed for horses as Prascend in many countries), which replaces the missing dopamine, signalling the pars intermedia to reduce hormone production, and thereby reducing the clinical signs of PPID. It isn’t currently known whether treatment with pergolide will prevent or slow the hyperplasia and hypertrophy associated with the excess hormone production of the pars intermedia, but in theory this seems possible.

 

[paddy555]

No Paddy. unexplained laminitis is a symptom of Cushing's. Laminitis in a pony which has been left out on sweet grass 24/7 with an old mare who barely moves, and not fed four supplementary items that she was supposed to have is just a compete!y predictable case of laminitis.





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sorry but I am still struggling to understand and I think the bit that I am missing is how you are able to tell that the laminitis was caused by grass consumption (and I have got it that the pony was on grass) when in fact we now know that endocrine laminitis is the most common form of lami. (obviously leaving aside things like weight bearing, toxicity etc which don't apply here)
It's just that link between explained and unexplained laminitis I cannot make and I cannot see that one could say with any degree of certainty that a perfectly healthy pony would get lami with the only factor being grass and no underlying issues and especially a 16yo.

 

[ycbm]

sorry but I am still struggling to understand and I think the bit that I am missing is how you are able to tell that the laminitis was caused by grass consumption (and I have got it that the pony was on grass) when in fact we now know that endocrine laminitis is the most common form of lami. (obviously leaving aside things like weight bearing, toxicity etc which don't apply here)
It's just that link between explained and unexplained laminitis I cannot make and I cannot see that one could say with any degree of certainty that a perfectly healthy pony would get lami with the only factor being grass and no underlying issues and especially a 16yo.

Nobody said grass was the only factor, and toxicity (iron and manganese overload) certainly does apply here. As does the sudden stopping of a hormone damping drug and the lack of magnesium and yeast in the diet she gets when with me.

Obvious things are obvious. Back on the right diet with unlimited unsoaked forage, the pony was as right as rain in less than 48 hours. And that improvement has been maintained now she has had five days with grazing added for several hours a day. Ergo it was the diet that was the problem.


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[paddy555]

Nobody said grass was the only factor, and toxicity (iron and manganese overload) certainly does apply here. As does the sudden stopping of a hormone damping drug and the lack of magnesium and yeast in the diet she gets when with me.

Obvious things are obvious. Back on the right diet with unlimited unsoaked forage, the pony was as right as rain in less than 48 hours. And that improvement has been maintained after five days with grazing added for several hours a day. Ergo it was the diet that was the problem.


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ah, I see the difference in our conclusions. I was thinking more along the lines of the 2nd paradigm shift which seemed important and needed consideration.

 

[ycbm]

I've been doing a bit more research and come across a very interesting suggestion. One of the reasons that I put the pony on Agnus Castus was because of how heavily she came into season, making a complete mess of herself and being very flirty with the big boys. It damped the seasons down nicely last year.

When my loanee told me about the laminitis she said that the agnus castus had run out, the pony had come strongly into season and then straight away got laminitis. I was wondering if there was a connection between the raised hormone levels and the lami.

People might find this an interesting article , which also mentions the role of iron towards the end.

http://www.laminitishelp.org/748/is-there-a-link-between-mares-coming-into-season-and-laminitis/

 

[Tiddlypom]

There's a bunch of you here hoping my pony will crash with laminitis so you can say 'we told you so!'. Will you please get off wishing my pony ill so you can prove yourselves right!

How ridiculous and offensive. No one wishes laminitis on any equine.