Laminitis with no improvement

[Pearlsasinger]

I feel very let down by the vets, both that I have used have failed my horse. I’m shocked at how much has changed within her feet in such a short space of time, absolutely nothing has changed with her management I just don’t understand it at all.

Sadly that is the nature of this disease sometimes, especially if there is an underlying cause, which it seems there probably is in your horse's case. It is very difficult when you are in the middle of it all, hoping against hope that your animal will come right, to take a step back and get an overview, which takes into account what is likely to happen in the future and weigh up the possible quality of life in the months and years ahead. Vets don't always have that skill either.

I remember asking a vet if I should have a cat pts when I rang to ask about lung x-ray results. He said 'oh no, not yet we can give her x, y, z'. We gave her the drugs, she hated it, had to wear a cone to stop her scratching the poorly healing wound that we were trying to get to heal and lived in the bathroom, so that she wasn't upset by the other animals. 3 months later, with no real improvement apparent, I had to have her pts.
I have always told myself that I would never allow that situation again. The vet was one that I had known for years and was a very kind-hearted man who really didn't like to pts any animal if he could avoid it but really he should have answered my question with 'yes' and saved her 3 months of a poor quality of life. The trouble is that you don't know until you have been in the situation. My motto now is always 'better a week too soon than a day too late', for the sake of the animal.

 

[Chianti]

As I remember you'd told the vet that when you re x-rayed if there was no improvement you would PTS so I don't see how he can argue now. He should have put that in your pony's notes. If you don't want to make the call is there someone who would do it for you? Your poor pony now needs the only help that the vet can give and that's to PTS.

 

[scats]

Oh gosh, those X-rays are dreadful, Im so sorry. I really would be making arrangements to have the horse put to sleep in the morning.

You can tell your vet that you feel you have reached the end of the road and you want to call it a day. To be honest, any vet worth their salt, would advise putting to sleep based on those X-rays, the history and the level of discomfort the animal is in.
Sometimes you have to stand your ground with a vet, no matter how tough it is. The pony is yours and you need to act now. I’m so sorry xx

 

[HappyHorses:)]

Jeeze I really feel for you. Have to say those x-rays tho, really not good. If you look back to the x-rays you had done in February you can see that, bless her, she’s only gotten worse despite all efforts.
You can tell how much she means to you.

 

[Nari]

Yes the x-rays are bad, but I can see where the vet is coming from because I think a good correcting trim could help. BUT I can't see Tilly to judge how she is or isn't managing, and I'm not a professional just someone who's been through this with her own.

I wouldn't dream of telling PSD what she should do when I can't see things for myself, and I'm not sure I would even then. I will, however, support her whatever she decides because she's in a far better position to make the right choice.

 

[splashgirl45]

she already has been trimmed, everything has been tried, its time to call it a day and i really hope PSD makes the call and doesnt wait for the ok from the vet because they will go on and on trying to treat her and she has been through enough IMO....and so has PSD....

 

[fusspot]

I am so sorry for the position you are now in.My boy went on the Metformin but it was after 2 years of controlling his EMS through diet.Unfortunately you may find as yours had already been dealing with Laminitis for a while before the new vet tested for EMS,sadly too much damage had been done to the feet.The metformin may be doing a bit but almost feet are too far gone sadly.I found that they do lose something about them and do almost become a “shell” standing there-it’s like the light has gone out.With both of mine which I lost to Lami due to Cushings and EMS, I called the vets and said that I needed a vet to come out ASAP to do a PTS due to them being in too much pain.Both were different vets and gave the horse the once over and agreed that it was now becoming a welfare case.My only concern with you calling somebody else who isn’t a vet is that your Insurance may use it as a get out clause as a vet normally has to confirm to them that it is now a welfare case.Only other thing I would do in your position,is to call the Insurance company first thing,explain the situation and ask for somebody to send an email to with the xrays on and see if they now consider this to be a welfare case-if they agree then you have back up to the vet.As long as a vet should always try there best,you as the owner have the right to put a healthy horse to sleep-it’s not there call.Really feel for you and if can help with any advice in anyway please message.Xx

 

[View]

I wouldn't dream of telling PSD what she should do when I can't see things for myself, and I'm not sure I would even then. I will, however, support her whatever Shebat nine decides because she's in a far better position to make the right choice.

You’re correct that we haven’t seen the mare, but lots of us have had to make that call. We recognise how hard it can be, particularly when there is a qualified professional offering hope.

PSD, stay strong and continue being your girl’s advocate, You will know when is the right time and when it is, don’t let yourself be swayed. Hugs.

 

[PSD]

You have all been so kind and supportive. I want to thank each and every one of you who have taken the time to comment, show support and your concern for her.

I mean it, thank you from the bottom of my heart.

 

[OldNag]

Nothing I can add that hasn't been said. I think you and your mare are very badly let down by your vet.
I am so sorry, I don't think you have any option now x

 

[LeneHorse]

This thread has been truly heart wrenching. I have a very similar photo of my little horse in her box a few days before she was pts due to Cushing's related laminitis. Her x-ray were very similar too. Like you my vet wouldn't make the call but I could see the light had gone out of my girls eyes and I had to make the hardest decision of my life and instructed the vet to do it. You have been put in an awful position by your vet but go with your heart and let her go. This was 20 years ago but it still hurts now - this weekend is the anniversary of her getting laminitis and she was pts 4 weeks later. My thoughts are with you today.

 

[ycbm]

Thinking of you this morning PSD.

.

 

[Yeomans]

Be brave go with your gut instinct, you know your pony better than us. Be kind to yourself as well.

 

[w1bbler]

Been following from the start. Good luck today.
I'm also frustrated with your vet. My horse was no where near as bad as yours, my vet gave her a 50/50 chance. His words were I'll support whatever decision you make & told me to have a think & ring him any time to chat through.
He never made it difficult for me.

 

[vmac66]

Thinking of you today and hoping you get the outcome that you are looking for. Look after yourself xx

 

[TPO]

Thinking of you.

It's been a few years since the conversation but when I was discussing pts of a horse the vet told me that they couldnt make that decision or tell anyone to pts. The "sue" culture meant that they couldn't say that.

I took some young pet rats to the vet a couple of years ago. They were litter mates and one had developed really bad tumour really young. I took them to be pts and vet started talking ops and treatment options. I explained that they were there to be pts (they had seen vets before for different things) and the vet was relieved. He said he would do the same but there is always pressure on them to do everything they can just to keep the animals alive for the owners that he has to offer options.


I'm not saying that's what has happened here but hopefully it helps OP feel more comfortable with making the call.

Thinking of you OP, it is never easy but it is the final kindness. Look after yourself x

 

[ycbm]

Thinking about you and worried for both you and your lovely little mare PSD.

.

 

[lucymb]

I've read the thread from start to finish and this is so sad.
I feel so sad for you and your horse.
I've only had 1 experience of a pony with laminitis and it's a horrible thing for them to go through. He wasn't my pony but it was still horrific seeing him in so much pain every day.
I lost my mare not long ago and it's heartbreaking, but you have to think what is best for them. You have done everything you could have to try and save her.
My thoughts are with you.

 

[Dusty 123]

Any updates them X-ray are really bad there is no recovery when it gets that bad I think it’s now time to say goodbye before the horse dies by its self with the pain of the bone moving. I am personally disgusted by vet attitude but it no surprise some vets will refuse to admit that it time to pts . Op please think of the horse I now it very difficult and I now you’re clinging to any bit of hope but for the horses welfare please pts

 

[Nari]

Any updates them X-ray are really bad there is no recovery when it gets that bad I think it’s now time to say goodbye before the horse dies by its self with the pain of the bone moving. I am personally disgusted by vet attitude but it no surprise some vets will refuse to admit that it time to pts . Op please think of the horse I now it very difficult and I now you’re clinging to any bit of hope but for the horses welfare please pts

From personal experience I can honestly say there can be recovery from x-rays like that, and furthermore a good quality of life afterwards. There are no guarantees, but then when are there? And yes alongside doing everything right a good dollop of luck is needed, but there can be hope. Important factors are whether the pain can be managed and the horse is settled on box rest, you're managing an individual not a text book.

I don't think pressing PSD to make a decision that you feel is right is helpful to her. We don't see enough to make a decision, her and her vet and farrier do. If you can't be supportive then maybe it would be better not to post - that's not aimed purely at you by the way Dusty 123, there are other posters who have pushed their opinion though some of them now have the kindness to post just asking how PSD is coping.

 

[Silverhooves]

Hi, this is my first ever post but I am a long time lurker. I never imagined actually joining the forum but this thread has touched me so much I literally just set up this account to be able to post.. never thought this would be my first post if i ever did join! I’m sorry it is not about something happier i just wanted to say I am so sorry for PSD and her pony. I can’t imagine what they are going through and certainly can’t claim what I would do if I were in that exact position. But I also feel strongly in giving a bit of tough love.. not only for the pony’s sake but for PSD, if the bone comes through the sole and this all ends in a painful death with lots of suffering then PSD may certainly suffer more for it.. and we can all see it is very near to that happening.

Nari, I don’t agree with you saying other posters are pushing PSD to make a particular decision - i don’t think anyone would have been pushing her (and i certainly wouldn’t have posted this either) if all along PSD had said she feels it is best to carry on and she feels there is a glimmer of hope. But read back through the thread. PSD continuously says there is no hope and that this is the end, and she has even said (many times) that if her pony does survive she won’t have any quality of life. So this is coming from the owner herself. There have also been many times when PSD has said she will give one more chance and then put to sleep (e.g. results of x-rays) but doesn’t end up following through and once again suffering is prolonged (for PSD as well as the pony). The only reason i am saying this is because i see a constant voice coming from PSD, which has really been saying the same thing throughout the thread - i think every one else has also seen this, which is why they are encouraging to put to sleep - not to force PSD to do something against her will but rather to give her the strength to stick to what she has been feeling deeply inside all along.

It looks like PSD is exhausted and stuck in a cloudy haze and is forgetting her decisions and being swayed every time by the vet - that is not a dig at PSD, i bet i would do the exact same thing as i couldn’t bare the thought of having to part with my horse and would surely want to hang on to every hopeful suggestion the vet could give.. but i hope if that ever does come there will be some outsiders who can pull me out of the haze and give me the strength to do what is needed for my horses well being.. just as i think posters are doing for PSD. Again, if PSD had mostly commented along the lines of wanting to carry on and feeling there could be hope I’m sure no one would post encouraging to put to sleep. Please go back and read through the thread and see what PSD has been saying.

PSD if you are still reading this thread I am truly truly sorry for what you are going through - your pony is so lucky to have an owner like you! My heart really does go out to you. But i also want to urge you to stay strong and listen to your heart, read over what you have been posting also .. read your writing about thinking its better for her to be put out of her misery whilst she has some spark left.. your later posts say she has lost her spark and you feel your pony has already gone. I really don’t want to be reading future posts of you saying the bone has gone through and she not only died with no spark but she died experiencing incredible suffering and all alone. This sounds awful the way i am writing it, but i am only writing it because it hasn’t happened yet - you have time to prevent that! And I’m also sure your pony is still with you when you are close to her and her spark is still there as she is comforted by her wonderful mummy. You deserve to experience seeing your beautiful mare pass on in your company with some peace, and not in a state of pure agony. If i have offended you or upset you in any of my writing i’m so incredibly sorry! Sometimes words don’t convey correctly, i would hate to cause more pain due to my words.... my heart goes out to you and your pony and please don’t feel bad about anything - you have been absolutely amazing.

And again, it’s easy for me to write this as i am an outsider, and i really doubt i would be doing any different.. i hope i would have the support around me as you do if i ever go through any of this. Just one last thing to add, if you feel in your heart there is hope and your pony will survive and have a good life then absolutely ignore what i’m saying and continue working through the treatment and healing plans! Definitely don’t listen to any strangers on an internet forum!! You know your pony, not us. I guess there are instances when miracles can happen as Nari says. But just listen to your heart, if it is still saying there is absolutely no hope then please end all this suffering now without waiting for the vet to give the go ahead! Much love to you.. i have honestly never been so affected by a thread before.. xxx

 

[ycbm]

From personal experience I can honestly say there can be recovery from x-rays like that, and furthermore a good quality of life afterwards. There are no guarantees, but then when are there? And yes alongside doing everything right a good dollop of luck is needed, but there can be hope. Important factors are whether the pain can be managed and the horse is settled on box rest, you're managing an individual not a text book.

I don't think pressing PSD to make a decision that you feel is right is helpful to her. We don't see enough to make a decision, her and her vet and farrier do. If you can't be supportive then maybe it would be better not to post - that's not aimed purely at you by the way Dusty 123, there are other posters who have pushed their opinion though some of them now have the kindness to post just asking how PSD is coping.

Be fair Nari, twice PSD has told us that she is going to tell the vet that enough is enough. We were supporting that choice, not pushing our views on her. Nobody told her to put the horse to sleep until after she had already told us that she was going to.


.

 

[Nari]

Ycbm I feel that there's a difference between what she thinks she should do according to widely held views on rotation and sinking, and what she feels is right for her mare, but maybe that's just my take on it. I do feel some posters have been pushing by repeating the same thing and painting a nightmare picture if she doesn't do as they say now. And for what it's worth you've been one of the people who after expressing your opinion have been generous enough to ask after PSD with no further pressure.

 

[Dusty 123]

She was asking for advice I gave my opinion I wasn’t pushing it on her and she said she was going to if nothing else worked she would pts I was supporting her it better than saying it going to be fine or lying to her. I actually lost my first lone pony to these condition just over a year ago. I personally don’t think the poster would like people fight over the pony in the form.

 

[View]

Hi PSD, hope both you and your gorgeous mare have had a better weekend.

 

[ycbm]

Ycbm I feel that there's a difference between what she thinks she should do according to widely held views on rotation and sinking, and what she feels is right for her mare, but maybe that's just my take on it. I do feel some posters have been pushing by repeating the same thing and painting a nightmare picture if she doesn't do as they say now. And for what it's worth you've been one of the people who after expressing your opinion have been generous enough to ask after PSD with no further pressure.

You are still being unfair. If those posts had been written before the posters were told that PSD was going to insist that the mare was put to sleep because she wasn't herself any more, then you would be right. But they weren't. They were written afterwards and they were to support her having made a very brave decision.

Dusty is right, PSD would not want us to be arguing like this. I have thought long and hard about whether to write this. But people need support when they make that terrible decision and your criticism will put them off doing it again for someone else.

Will you please balance this post of mine by adding your story about how your horse recovered, from how bad a rotation and sink, how long that took, and what life they had after recovery?

PSD, if you are reading this, I hope this week sees an improvement with the replacement of the Imprints and that things continue that way.

.

 

[Reacher]

OP I just want to wish you and your mare well and I hope the vets give you the help you need.
Like other posters I have been through this myself so I feel for you and your mare x

 

[shortstuff99]

You are still being unfair. If those posts had been written before the posters were told that PSD was going to insist that the mare was put to sleep because she wasn't herself any more, then you would be right. But they weren't. They were written afterwards and they were to support her having made a very brave decision.

Dusty is right, PSD would not want us to be arguing like this. I have thought long and hard about whether to write this. But people need support when they make that terrible decision and your criticism will put them off doing it again for someone else.

Will you please balance this post of mine by adding your story about how your horse recovered, from how bad a rotation and sink, how long that took, and what life they had after recovery?

PSD, if you are reading this, I hope this week sees an improvement with the replacement of the Imprints and that things continue that way.

.

I can give mine if it helps anybody? My old mare suddenly went down with horrendous laminitis with no warning. It turned out that she had Cushing's disease BUT was negative for EMS. I was out of the country at the time so my parents didn't feel comfortable putting her down without me there. She had 15 degrees rotation in one front foot at about 10 degrees in the other. She struggled to stand and to walk.

It took a while to find pain medication that she would take and would work, in the end we had metacam. Which was very effective. She had a frog support on her feet until the pain improved, then moved to egg bars with a pad and filled with a sterile and antibiotic/anti fungal gel type stuff.

All in the recovery took about 12 months, I think most people thought we should have put her down, but she was slowly recovering which is why we carried on.

I have a brilliant farrier and about a year after the recovery her rotation was 'corrected'. 10 years on she is now 26 and still out competing and loving life so I'm glad I did it!

Now this might not be for everyone and I think it was easier for me as we were able to treat the underlying cause (cushings) and she does not have EMS so managing her is easier but it is a success story.

 

[meleeka]

I can give mine if it helps anybody? My old mare suddenly went down with horrendous laminitis with no warning. It turned out that she had Cushing's disease BUT was negative for EMS. I was out of the country at the time so my parents didn't feel comfortable putting her down without me there. She had 15 degrees rotation in one front foot at about 10 degrees in the other. She struggled to stand and to walk.

It took a while to find pain medication that she would take and would work, in the end we had metacam. Which was very effective. She had a frog support on her feet until the pain improved, then moved to egg bars with a pad and filled with a sterile and antibiotic/anti fungal gel type stuff.

All in the recovery took about 12 months, I think most people thought we should have put her down, but she was slowly recovering which is why we carried on.

I have a brilliant farrier and about a year after the recovery her rotation was 'corrected'. 10 years on she is now 26 and still out competing and loving life so I'm glad I did it!

Now this might not be for everyone and I think it was easier for me as we were able to treat the underlying cause (cushings) and she does not have EMS so managing her is easier but it is a success story.

I thing Cushings is a lot easier to deal with. Once you’ve found the cause and medicated it’s just a case of recovery.

I see where you are coming from and voiced my concerns earlier on in this thread that it’s very easy to say PTS when you haven’t got the horse in front of you. Once the OP responded with the update that the pony was in fact worse and she felt that she wasn’t happy anymore, I felt that she needed to do what she thought was right and all we could do was support her, whatever she decides.

 

[shortstuff99]

I thing Cushings is a lot easier to deal with. Once you’ve found the cause and medicated it’s just a case of recovery.

I see where you are coming from and voiced my concerns earlier on in this thread that it’s very easy to say PTS when you haven’t got the horse in front of you. Once the OP responded with the update that the pony was in fact worse and she felt that she wasn’t happy anymore, I felt that she needed to do what she thought was right and all we could do was support her, whatever she decides.

Just to add it wasn't me that mentioned not jumping to PTS, just thought I would add a success story. I support whatever an owner decides is best for their horse and for them.