Land Management for Horses with Dr Lisa Schofield..

I've got a lot of useful information from it, but I'm on livery in a shared field and there is only a limited amount of things I can do.

I don't get the impression she advocates spraying, but that is the go-to response from a lot of the comments. In terms of improving grass her argument is for increasing the diversity of the grasses and getting away from the high sugar varieties.

With my very good doer I couldn't do the 6in grass either, I don't think, but I have happily strip grazed into longer swards, which she also promotes as an alternative.
 
I’m in the group and learnt some bits about land management, but I do find it a bit repetitive. I have it muted and just search if I want to read about something.
The advice is geared towards creating healthy land with diversity of species, but not necessarily always the best advice for horses in particular. An ideal paddock according to this group would have an abundance of 6 inch fertilised, good grass, which as we know, is not what we all want or need!

There are a lot of recommendations to spray everything, but Lisa herself doesn’t advocate spraying particularly.
 
We had fairly compacted, unproductive, clay land with a limited acreage.

We follow some of the advice and have much healthier soil as a result, with a much healthier sward.

I adapt the recommendations to suit my horses needs on a limited acreage and we have much more diverse paddocks as a result.

I do have a track, which she doesn’t especially endorse. But very much manage the grass in the middle as an Equicentral system.

We don’t spray, and I don’t recall her particularly endorsing it. I remember seeing much more about mowing or slashing docks and the like on the journey to building better permaculture.
 
I saw today's post about grazing horses on long grass and winced. I did think about saying EMS is likely to have genetic factors so it's one h3ll of a risk putting a native on that but knew I'd be booted so scrolled on by.

There is useful stuff in the group but I have it on mute and only pop in if I'm after something - killing mare's tail for instance.

I have fabulous fields with loads of different grass species and very little rye. I can categorically say my horses still get fat. They have tracks around them, company, shelters and although the flies will send two of them into the shelter the Appy is a tough girl and food versus flies will still find her stuffing herself

So I strip graze into the long stuff, they nibble the super sweet short stuff and have a bit of hay to fill tummies and prevent break outs.

I also haven't found that flinging poo into various areas stops them eating.
 
Hackback said:
I also joined briefly but it all seemed to be about spreading horse muck back over the fields. There's only so many posts you can read abiut the same thing. I'm a bit FB challenged though so maybe there was more to it than that.
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I think that is a component to it. The premise is if you keep removing the nutrients from the field it will get nutritionally poorer and have more weeds taking over. There's lots of interesting stuff about trying to improve top soil and limit compaction of soil. She promotes harrowing, and aerating soil, and not rolling as increases compaction.

If you can get soil to have much better grass coverage, better top soil and be less compacted, you will also have much better drainage in winter.

The group covers lots of tips for people managing horse on a small acreage without big machinery. Personally I lurk and read and find there is some useful information. Like many lots suggested doesn't practically apply to me. But I dont feel the need to argue about it here / on the discussion group.

Lisa is clearly unquestionably knowledgeable about field management, herbicides, and equipment to manage land. But that doesnt mean her way is the one true way!

The group clearly states it is not set up for wider discussion. It is set up for her to share her knowledge, with those that want to receive it and link to research that is available. You are not allowed to join and post different views that contradict. There are other places for that. It is run strictly. If you ask a question and dont include please and thank you the post will not be approved. I still find the group useful.
 
i think it has some really good info on how to repair fields for winter and how to tend to damaged areas and what grass mixes are best etc.

it certainly encouraged me to swap bagged fertiliser for spreading my own muck heap back on which has made a positive impact on the grass growth for winter.

I DONT think much of what she preaches applies to natives in summer and is actually dangerous advice (eg long grass V short and the no gorging theory!)

i have a ruined dustbowl paddock for the fat prone one in summer and a slightly less ruined paddock for the other one and id rather supplement with hay and straw than grow a blade more grass on them as both would be a lami risk if managed wrongly.

so in short i use her advice for winter fields but not for summer!
 
showingfan2 said:
I think that is a component to it. The premise is if you keep removing the nutrients from the field it will get nutritionally poorer and have more weeds taking over. There's lots of interesting stuff about trying to improve top soil and limit compaction of soil. She promotes harrowing, and aerating soil, and not rolling as increases compaction.

If you can get soil to have much better grass coverage, better top soil and be less compacted, you will also have much better drainage in winter.

The group covers lots of tips for people managing horse on a small acreage without big machinery. Personally I lurk and read and find there is some useful information. Like many lots suggested doesn't practically apply to me. But I dont feel the need to argue about it here / on the discussion group.

Lisa is clearly unquestionably knowledgeable about field management, herbicides, and equipment to manage land. But that doesnt mean her way is the one true way!

The group clearly states it is not set up for wider discussion. It is set up for her to share her knowledge, with those that want to receive it and link to research that is available. You are not allowed to join and post different views that contradict. There are other places for that. It is run strictly. If you ask a question and dont include please and thank you the post will not be approved. I still find the group useful.
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My problem is, I wasn't trying to question anything or post different views than what she shares. She speaks very authoritatively, which is easy to do on a group you admin. So on that basis I wanted to understand her background and credentials to see if what I was learning was likely to be sound/fact rather than a random name on FB telling people to do xyz.

I'm now of the opinion that my booting shows me everything I need. If I politely ask about the source of the information and get kicked out then 🤷‍♀️
 
ycbm said:
Well that's completely contrary to my own management, which was complete neglect except for dock and ragwort control. I guess you need more land to do that, though, as the energy content will be lower, but for me that was another advantage.
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Same here. It’s taken years for me to ruin my fields enough for my fatties (previous owners fertilised and grass seeded each year). 😂
 
Lady Jane said:
Same here, good winter field advice. I have learnt from the group but prefer Dr David Marlin but no-one here likes him either!
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Marlin, IMO has some value but is prone to over generalisation, and sometimes misses the fact that if there is no commercial value in testing something no one will research the item, whether or not it is actually beneficial. e.g. feeding table salt, feeding magnesium oxide.
Are very cheap generic products, no value in testing their impact on horses, as no money to be made.
 
Nudibranch said:
Her PhD is in psychology.
Joined the group, soon left. Not for me; rather a controlling attitude and unwilling to discuss or debate. But then I find anyone who misuses their qualifications to try and gain credibility just gets my back up from the off. We could all do it but fortunately most of us choose not to.
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This!! Very controlling and comes across quite rude at times.
 
My personal experience over the last two weeks suggests the long grass v short grass argument doesn't hold water. Until two weeks ago the boys were on their winter field. 7 horses on 7 acres, they were eating the fresh grass as soon as it was coming through. Arch was still looking a bit slim after winter and Wiggy was a lovely weight. After two weeks on very long grass, Arch is looking amazing and Wig is the size of a house. At the moment there's little I can do about this as I'm a bit incapacitated but hoping I'll be able to start bringing him in off the grass in the day time next week. I know it's anecdotal but lots of people will tell you the same thing and that adds up to an evidence base surely?
 
I understand long grass is less sugary/starchy than short but if your horse is greedy they eat more. I can see that 2 hours on long grass would be better than 2 hours on shortbut most of us want much longer turn out in the summer. I'm sure it works with some but I'm not sure I would take the risk. On a DDM webinar with one of his colleagues, they said the theory was fine but there are too many variables to say it was 'better'.
 
I think that the 'quality' of the grass plays a huge part. Most yards are on old farms with 'improved pasture', i.e. rye and clover. Designed for fattening ruminants and not all that suitable for the equine digestive system. It would be interesting to put some horses on the same length of grass in two different fields, one which is fertilised rye and clover and the other a more rough pasture of ancient meadow species. I imagine that there would be a marked difference in weight and gut health, regardless of the length of grass.

I do think that there are too many factors to quantify what the 'perfect' management would be, but for me, a track system seems like the best option overall for domestic horses.
 
Miss_Millie said:
I am on the group, the information shared is science based and not opinion based. The very basic principle of any kind of land management, from a small garden to acres of fields, is that you must put organic matter back onto the land to replenish what is taken, whether that is from growing crops or animals grazing. There are obviously a lot of variables depending on how much land you have and how many animals you have on it, what the soil type is in your area etc.

Shorter grass is higher in sugar because it is in a constant state of stress. If the land is never rested then it will always be parched and sugary.

I've gained some useful insights from the group, personally. If people don't want to join the group but want to understand the premise, they can look into permaculture and/or the Equicentral system of land and horse management.
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Scientifically, there is no reason why you must put organic matter back onto the field. Plants have the ability to make organic matter from minerals and the sun, they don't need organic matter like animals do. Plant fertilizer can be mineral based.
 
Palindrome said:
Scientifically, there is no reason why you must put organic matter back onto the field. Plants have the ability to make organic matter from minerals and the sun, they don't need organic matter like animals do. Plant fertilizer can be mineral based.
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As a gardener I thought the reason we added organic matter to garden borders and vegetable patches wasn't just about feeding the plants but as the Royal Horticultural Society puts it "Organic matter in soils binds other soil particles into aggregates that can be penetrated by roots and hold moisture, provides binding sites for nutrients so they are not washed out of the soil by rainfall and as it decays releases plant nutrients to feed plants."

So I've always guessed the same might be true of pasture land.
 
TGM said:
As a gardener I thought the reason we added organic matter to garden borders and vegetable patches wasn't just about feeding the plants but as the Royal Horticultural Society puts it "Organic matter in soils binds other soil particles into aggregates that can be penetrated by roots and hold moisture, provides binding sites for nutrients so they are not washed out of the soil by rainfall and as it decays releases plant nutrients to feed plants."

So I've always guessed the same might be true of pasture land.
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I definitely have less compacted soil in the areas of my garden that get a couple of bags of well rotted muck every winter.

It was quite obvious in one of my paddocks which bit had the muck thrown on it last Autumn. That paddock floods (underground spring) and the drainage was obviously better in the part where I'd lobbed wheelbarrows of poo.
 
TGM said:
As a gardener I thought the reason we added organic matter to garden borders and vegetable patches wasn't just about feeding the plants but as the Royal Horticultural Society puts it "Organic matter in soils binds other soil particles into aggregates that can be penetrated by roots and hold moisture, provides binding sites for nutrients so they are not washed out of the soil by rainfall and as it decays releases plant nutrients to feed plants."

So I've always guessed the same might be true of pasture land.
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I've always assumed it was to improve soil structure as well as feeding plants directly.
 
I’m a member but I lurk and the only time I questioned something or passed on some advice I was booted, I was really shocked. So whilst I have picked up some good tips, I wouldn’t follow anyone 100% (well not so far anyway). But it’s not for the place for debate or opinions it would seem. But it’s her ball so she gets to choose 🤷‍♀️.
 
Palindrome said:
Scientifically, there is no reason why you must put organic matter back onto the field. Plants have the ability to make organic matter from minerals and the sun, they don't need organic matter like animals do. Plant fertilizer can be mineral based.
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On 'wild', uncultivated land, there is always organic matter breaking down into the soil in the form of decomposing leaves, annual plants, the droppings of birds and mammals, insects etc. The lifecycle of ecosystems creates organic matter, which is constantly breaking down and feeding the soil.

On our little patchworks of fields however, we're often grazing land without resting it, poo picking daily, taking and taking from the soil and never putting back. This is how you end up with poached land full of weeds and the 1 variety of grass which can tolerate being overgrazed.

It's true that you could use a mineral based fertiliser, but there are plenty of reasons why I would personally be reluctant to do this, vs trying to emulate nature as closely as possible by adding organic matter to the soil. It doesn't just aid plant and root system health, but also prevents erosion and compaction of the soil.
 
Lady Jane said:
I understand long grass is less sugary/starchy than short but if your horse is greedy they eat more. I can see that 2 hours on long grass would be better than 2 hours on shortbut most of us want much longer turn out in the summer. I'm sure it works with some but I'm not sure I would take the risk. On a DDM webinar with one of his colleagues, they said the theory was fine but there are too many variables to say it was 'better'.
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I'm not 100% sure I agree on even the 2 hours argument.

I listened to a well thought out obesity talk at our local vets and the vet there suggested we all went home, got two carrier bags and scissors and went into 2 fields.

We had to spend 10 mins cutting grass into the bag in a long grass field and then 10 mins cutting grass on a short grass field into the bag.
Then compared. We all agree totally that per gram there is less sugar in the longer grass - but her point was, look how much more they can shovel in - in the same amount of time in long vs. short grass.

Unless your grazing is on Shetland or the new forest and totally unimproved with heather, gorse, scrub, weeds, rocks, lichen etc. etc. it can't be 'natural' enough to let them have free range at easy shovelling length.

I also think most of us would wobble at the skinniness of free range horses in say USA at the end of the winter.
 
Miss_Millie said:
On 'wild', uncultivated land, there is always organic matter breaking down into the soil in the form of decomposing leaves, annual plants, the droppings of birds and mammals, insects etc. The lifecycle of ecosystems creates organic matter, which is constantly breaking down and feeding the soil.
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Do you mean in forests?

TGM said:
As a gardener I thought the reason we added organic matter to garden borders and vegetable patches wasn't just about feeding the plants but as the Royal Horticultural Society puts it "Organic matter in soils binds other soil particles into aggregates that can be penetrated by roots and hold moisture, provides binding sites for nutrients so they are not washed out of the soil by rainfall and as it decays releases plant nutrients to feed plants."

So I've always guessed the same might be true of pasture land.
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I am not saying it's not helpful to add organic matter, I am replying to "The very basic principle of any kind of land management [...] is that you must put organic matter back onto the land to replenish what is taken" as a science based statement.


Not saying it's good or bad, but some crops are grown without soil at all.
 
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